Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
The lagoon "canals" are connected to both rivers and the city "canals" in the sense that the lagoon "canals" are often the continuation of rivers or city "canals". Two Examples: - Fiume (River) Dese (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/27658040) and Canale Dese (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/398995928) - Rio dei Giardini (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/171899879) is a single way that is part canal and part nautical channel. On Sun, 1 Jul 2018, 13:18 Martin Koppenhoefer, wrote: > > > sent from a phone > > > On 1. Jul 2018, at 11:39, Volker Schmidt wrote: > > > > No, my question was not about the canali in Venice, which are > essentially waterways between islands that are inhabited. > > > still there are some question for those “canals” in Venice: are they > “artificial”, or are the islands (as you call them) artificial, or are both > in principle natural with some human intervention and maintenance? Maybe > some are artificial but most of natural origin? The Canale Grande is a > channel or a canal? Wouldn’t it have to be artificial in order to be a > canal? > > > We don’t tag rivers as canals, although the current bed might have been > shaped significantly by human intervention, so I guess man_made vs. natural > for waterways is not meant to focus on the details rather than the overall > picture > > Cheers, > Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
sent from a phone > On 1. Jul 2018, at 11:39, Volker Schmidt wrote: > > No, my question was not about the canali in Venice, which are essentially > waterways between islands that are inhabited. still there are some question for those “canals” in Venice: are they “artificial”, or are the islands (as you call them) artificial, or are both in principle natural with some human intervention and maintenance? Maybe some are artificial but most of natural origin? The Canale Grande is a channel or a canal? Wouldn’t it have to be artificial in order to be a canal? We don’t tag rivers as canals, although the current bed might have been shaped significantly by human intervention, so I guess man_made vs. natural for waterways is not meant to focus on the details rather than the overall picture Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
It sounds like you might be looking for "fairway"?
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/fairway-channel-same-difference.1910166/
http://www.yourdictionary.com/fairway
//Colin
On 2018-07-01 11:39, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> No, the question was about the canali in the open lagoon, which are marked
>
> On 1 July 2018 at 09:08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> the question here was about the Canali in Venice, usually no buoys there,
>> but man_made banks.
>
> No, my question was not about the canali in Venice, which are essentially
> waterways between islands that are inhabited.
> I realise I was not clear enough with my definition: my question was about
> navigation channels in the open lagoon which are often, but not always marked
> by wooden delimiters ("briccola" in Italian, "dolphin" in English) as visible
> in this photo: [1]. That's where thay are in the lagoon [2]
> (side remark: many of these are tagged as"seamark:mooring:category=dolphin"
> in OSM, even though they are not for mooring)
>
> [1] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/fj42p-LsTwFFlrU1MLIryg
> [2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/zYh
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Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
No, the question was about the canali in the open lagoon, which are marked
On 1 July 2018 at 09:08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> the question here was about the Canali in Venice, usually no buoys there,
> but man_made banks.
>
> No, my question was not about the canali in Venice, which are essentially
waterways between islands that are inhabited.
I realise I was not clear enough with my definition: my question was about
navigation channels in the open lagoon which are often, but not always
marked by wooden delimiters ("briccola" in Italian, "dolphin" in English)
as visible in this photo: [1]. That's where thay are in the lagoon [2]
(side remark: many of these are tagged as"seamark:mooring:category=dolphin"
in OSM, even though they are not for mooring)
[1] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/fj42p-LsTwFFlrU1MLIryg
[2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/zYh
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Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
sent from a phone > On 1. Jul 2018, at 03:25, > wrote: > > While navigable channels are marked with buoys, which makes them closer to a > “highway” on land than a route. So I think it’s something that belongs in the > waterway namespace. the question here was about the Canali in Venice, usually no buoys there, but man_made banks. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
On 1 July 2018 at 13:59, wrote: > Maybe following the same scheme as for highways: > > > > waterway=navigable_channel (for way along the middle of the channel) > > area:waterway=navigable_channel (for area bound by buoys, with an > intersecting node at both ends between the area and the middle line way) > > > > > > The real question becomes: tagging as a way in the middle of the channel? > Tagging as an area (by mapping the buoys as seamarks, then connecting them > to form an area)? Both? Either? > I've been having a think about this idea & just can't decide what would be best? Would be easiest to just put a line up the middle, similar to a road, & say "this is the channel", ignoring the actual width (which would be very hard to determine anyway). Obviously, tagging it as an area would show the width of the channel, but do we just take it as a straight line from nav. marker to nav. marker, or try to take into account any variations in width? The problem with both schemes is what happens when the channel opens into an area of safe water, in the way that a river opens into a lake. Do we stop the "river" at this side of the "lake", then start it again at the other side, & show the area of the "lake" as being part of the channel? Whichever way, it will involve a lot of work to get it all correct, unless we are able to copy details from existing nautical charts, with all the associated copyright issues? I'm actually wondering if this is something that should be in Open*Street*Map at all, or whether it should be left in OpenSeaMap? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
Maybe following the same scheme as for highways: waterway=navigable_channel (for way along the middle of the channel) area:waterway=navigable_channel (for area bound by buoys, with an intersecting node at both ends between the area and the middle line way) From: osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2018 11:25 To: 'Tag discussion, strategy and related tools' Subject: Re: [Tagging] nautical channels I think it’s slightly different. For canoe routes, there is generally no infrastructure along the route. While navigable channels are marked with buoys, which makes them closer to a “highway” on land than a route. So I think it’s something that belongs in the waterway namespace. If navigable channel is the correct nautical term, then the obvious would be waterway=navigable_channel The real question becomes: tagging as a way in the middle of the channel? Tagging as an area (by mapping the buoys as seamarks, then connecting them to form an area)? Both? Either? From: Graeme Fitzpatrick mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com> > Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2018 11:10 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] nautical channels & as I've just mentioned on the Canoe Route thread, we're discussing two things that are pretty well the same! https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-June/037677.html https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-July/037729.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
I think it’s slightly different. For canoe routes, there is generally no infrastructure along the route. While navigable channels are marked with buoys, which makes them closer to a “highway” on land than a route. So I think it’s something that belongs in the waterway namespace. If navigable channel is the correct nautical term, then the obvious would be waterway=navigable_channel The real question becomes: tagging as a way in the middle of the channel? Tagging as an area (by mapping the buoys as seamarks, then connecting them to form an area)? Both? Either? From: Graeme Fitzpatrick Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2018 11:10 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] nautical channels & as I've just mentioned on the Canoe Route thread, we're discussing two things that are pretty well the same! https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-June/037677.html https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-July/037729.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
& as I've just mentioned on the Canoe Route thread, we're discussing two things that are pretty well the same! https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-June/037677.html https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-July/037729.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
On 30 June 2018 at 23:18, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > Thinking about it, the Canale Grande should maybe not get waterway=canal > but waterway=river? > > Maybe natural=water? I was recently working on a canal estate in my area that had been previously tagged as natural=water. I retagged it as waterway=canal, but it then changed the render from an expanse of blue water to a directional line following the shores of the waterway, surrounding a white blob of nothingness :-(, so I changed it back again. Tagging for the render? Yes I suppose so, but at least it *looks* right! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
On 1 July 2018 at 01:53, wrote: > there don’t seem to be any matching tags yet, maybe something like > waterway=dredged_channel ? > On 1 July 2018 at 04:13, Paul Johnson wrote: > > > I think you're referring to the navigation channel, ie, the area between > the red and green markers? If so, the suggestion downthread for > "dredged_channel" isn't necessarily going to match this, as the navigation > channel isn't necessarily dredged. > Perhaps waterway=navigation_channel / =marked_channel / =main_channel? > > For those not familiar, navigation channels are marked with red buoys or > markers down the right side of the channel when returning to land (red, > right, return). Green buoys or markers go down the right side of the > channel when you're going out to sea. > Except for those places in the world (~3/4!) where this pattern is reversed! :-) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 10:42 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 14:03 Paul Allen, wrote
>
>>
>> The way to handle navigable channels across lagoons/lakes is covered at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:route
>> (you might have to invent route=boat or route=ship).
>>
>
> I am aware the route relations for, e.g., ferry boats.
> What I want to tag are not routes but the water-equivalent of roads. The
> ferry-boat route (in the lagoon of Venice) uses the navigation channels
> ("canali") like a bus line follows roads.
> At present (always on the lagoon of Venice) mappers would map each
> "vaporetto" (water bus) route as a separate way plus the "canali" as
> separate, more or less parallel, ways.
>
I think you're referring to the navigation channel, ie, the area between
the red and green markers? If so, the suggestion downthread for
"dredged_channel" isn't necessarily going to match this, as the navigation
channel isn't necessarily dredged.
For those not familiar, navigation channels are marked with red buoys or
markers down the right side of the channel when returning to land (red,
right, return). Green buoys or markers go down the right side of the
channel when you're going out to sea. In many places that have a formal
separation between the directions of travel, white buoys may be down the
middle of the channel, and traffic operates to the right side of the center
buoys (though in absence of such buoys, traffic still generally operates in
a righthand pattern). The red and green markers indicate that navigation
should not occur outside that zone (though, at least in places I've
navigated, this is almost always further out than what is visibly possible,
as it's pretty common for bouys and markers to appear *well past* the
riverbank on the Columbia and Willamette Rivers)
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Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
Without being familiar with the topic at all, and seeing that there don’t seem
to be any matching tags yet, maybe something like waterway=dredged_channel ?
From: Volker Schmidt
Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2018 01:42
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 14:03 Paul Allen, mailto:pla16...@gmail.com> > wrote
The way to handle navigable channels across lagoons/lakes is covered at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:route
(you might have to invent route=boat or route=ship).
I am aware the route relations for, e.g., ferry boats.
What I want to tag are not routes but the water-equivalent of roads. The
ferry-boat route (in the lagoon of Venice) uses the navigation channels
("canali") like a bus line follows roads.
At present (always on the lagoon of Venice) mappers would map each "vaporetto"
(water bus) route as a separate way plus the "canali" as separate, more or less
parallel, ways.
I would think that the roads plus bus route relations model should be applied
also to navigation channels and water-based transport in the, admittedly, very
specific context of the Laguna Di Venetian.
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Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 14:03 Paul Allen, wrote
>
> The way to handle navigable channels across lagoons/lakes is covered at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:route
> (you might have to invent route=boat or route=ship).
>
I am aware the route relations for, e.g., ferry boats.
What I want to tag are not routes but the water-equivalent of roads. The
ferry-boat route (in the lagoon of Venice) uses the navigation channels
("canali") like a bus line follows roads.
At present (always on the lagoon of Venice) mappers would map each
"vaporetto" (water bus) route as a separate way plus the "canali" as
separate, more or less parallel, ways.
I would think that the roads plus bus route relations model should be
applied also to navigation channels and water-based transport in the,
admittedly, very specific context of the Laguna Di Venetian.
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Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
sent from a phone > On 30. Jun 2018, at 15:36, Yves wrote: > > Bah, if you want to tag the Canale Grande something else than waterway=canal, > you have an occupation for years ;) maybe river is not the right term, but it looks pretty obviously not artificial. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
Bah, if you want to tag the Canale Grande something else than waterway=canal, you have an occupation for years ;) Yves Le 30 juin 2018 15:18:53 GMT+02:00, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > > >sent from a phone > >> On 30. Jun 2018, at 14:41, Volker Schmidt wrote: >> >> The reason I am asking here, is that I detected by chance that >navigation channels in the Venice Lagoon [1] have been tagged as >waterway=canal, which to me seems not correct, or at least not covered >by the wiki definition. > > >I have noticed problems with this as well in a map I made in this area >(1:400.000) this week, what a coincidence. > >Reading the wiki, it seems in line with the canali tagged like this >(artificial ones, if there are any), because there is a merely >functional distinction: > > >“An artificial open flow waterway used to carry useful water for >transportation, waterpower, or irrigation.” > >Somehow the mapnik style always conveyed a hierarchy of scale between >canal, drain and ditch but there is not anything about this in the >current wiki article: >https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dcanal > >Thinking about it, the Canale Grande should maybe not get >waterway=canal but waterway=river? > >https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/398987317#map=14/45.4368/12.3284 > >Cheers, >Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
sent from a phone > On 30. Jun 2018, at 14:41, Volker Schmidt wrote: > > The reason I am asking here, is that I detected by chance that navigation > channels in the Venice Lagoon [1] have been tagged as waterway=canal, which > to me seems not correct, or at least not covered by the wiki definition. I have noticed problems with this as well in a map I made in this area (1:400.000) this week, what a coincidence. Reading the wiki, it seems in line with the canali tagged like this (artificial ones, if there are any), because there is a merely functional distinction: “An artificial open flow waterway used to carry useful water for transportation, waterpower, or irrigation.” Somehow the mapnik style always conveyed a hierarchy of scale between canal, drain and ditch but there is not anything about this in the current wiki article: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dcanal Thinking about it, the Canale Grande should maybe not get waterway=canal but waterway=river? https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/398987317#map=14/45.4368/12.3284 Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote: > It looks as if OpenSeaMap does map the seamarks that delimit the > navigation channel, but not the channel itself. > The reason I am asking here, is that I detected by chance that navigation > channels in the Venice Lagoon [1] have been tagged as waterway=canal, which > to me seems not correct, or at least not covered by the wiki definition. > This is most likely due to the fact that the English words "canal" and > "channel" both are translated in Italian as "canale". In Italian artificial > waterways are called "canale", on land and on water. > It's not the first time such confusion has arisen over the Italian "canale." What two Italian astronomers thought were channels on Mars ended up being translated as canals in English. I think it ought to be fixed as OSM uses British English (mostly) for tags and thosewill be interpreted as lagoons with artificial waterways in them rather than lagoons with navigable channels. Of course, saying it should be fixed is a lot easier than fixing it. The way to handle navigable channels across lagoons/lakes is covered at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:route (you might have to invent route=boat or route=ship). Extending the definition of canal is, in my opinion, a VERY bad idea. The wiki ought to draw attention to the fact that using canal in the sense of navigable channel in a body of water is WRONG (and maybe even explain why Italians are prone to making this mistake). -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
It looks as if OpenSeaMap does map the seamarks that delimit the navigation channel, but not the channel itself. The reason I am asking here, is that I detected by chance that navigation channels in the Venice Lagoon [1] have been tagged as waterway=canal, which to me seems not correct, or at least not covered by the wiki definition. This is most likely due to the fact that the English words "canal" and "channel" both are translated in Italian as "canale". In Italian artificial waterways are called "canale", on land and on water. Before raising the issue of a (widespread) retagging with the local community, I wanted to find out what better tagging, if any, is in use for such objects outside Italy. If no such tagging exists, then an alternative might be to extend the meaning of the waterway=canal in that sense, and document it in the wiki. [1] Overpass turbo query regarding the Venice Lagoon: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/zXv On 28 June 2018 at 20:55, Clifford Snow wrote: > Have you checked out OpenSeaMap.org and their related wiki https://wiki. > openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenSeaMap? It might get you started. > > Clifford > > On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 11:19 AM Volker Schmidt wrote: > >> >> How to map a nautical channel [1] ? >> >> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_(geography)#Nautical_channels >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > > > -- > @osm_seattle > osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us > OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] nautical channels
Have you checked out OpenSeaMap.org and their related wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenSeaMap? It might get you started. Clifford On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 11:19 AM Volker Schmidt wrote: > > How to map a nautical channel [1] ? > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_(geography)#Nautical_channels > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] nautical channels
How to map a nautical channel [1] ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_(geography)#Nautical_channels ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
