Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 3, 2019, 5:13 AM by th...@gmx.de:

> Thoughts ?
> Ideas how to fix that ?
>
Given that "fool" is strongly negative and derogatory any attempts to 
improve any situation should not have this word in the title of the thread.

Insulting people is one of the worst possible arguments.

.
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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Richard]

On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 06:23:15PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> As a side note, I find those mails with fancy "scissor" lines hard to read,
> as the actual contribution is hidden somewhere in between.

also breaking threads for every response is a bit too often.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 at 17:24, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

>
> It would help me if you could use the traditional method of quoting with
> '>' symbols, which is often
> supported in mail clients with some syntax highlighting.
>

+1

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Tom Pfeifer]

As a side note, I find those mails with fancy "scissor" lines hard to read, as the actual 
contribution is hidden somewhere in between.


It would help me if you could use the traditional method of quoting with '>' symbols, which is often 
supported in mail clients with some syntax highlighting.


Thanks
tom

On 04.01.2019 17:38, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:

8X-




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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

8X-

Sérgio V. svolk2 at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 4 15:59:48 UTC 2019

As talking on tools, standards and principles, I think what is vital is
to follow "OSM principles":

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice

*Don't remove tags that you don't understand*

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/How_We_Map

*Do not engage in large-scale "cleanups" without securing the agreement
of the relevant community or talking to the people whose work you aim to
"clean".*
8X-

Possibly you didn't notice I (first) tried to do so in May 2018 ?

8X-
Fri Jan 4 14:35:57 UTC 2019
...but last time this wasn't very successful :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036095.html

8X-

And did they ?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036119.html

Nothing happened, last mail :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036275.html

So please be try to be constructive,
look forward and tell us which scheme you prefer and why

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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Sérgio V .]

As talking on tools, standards and principles, I think what is vital is to 
follow "OSM principles":

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice

*Don't remove tags that you don't understand*

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/How_We_Map

*Do not engage in large-scale "cleanups" without securing the agreement of the 
relevant community or talking to the people whose work you aim to "clean".*

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

8X-
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org
Fri Jan 4 12:29:34 UTC 2019

Hi,

I agree there seems to be a problem here that needs careful discussion &
consideration, but:

On 03.01.19 16:47, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
> So which ACTION should we take now ?
> At least those who introduced it should be in charge.

The ACTION should definitely not be you mass-editing things back to how
you think they should be tagged. This can be discussed here and we can
make a change AFTER that, not while.

Bye
Frederik
8X-

I agree, but last time this wasn't very successful :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036095.html

8X-

Sérgio V. svolk2 at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 4 11:54:17 UTC 2019

Even if the tag keys were not propper, you've just removed many specific
information about services that were in the values, such as batteries;
brakes; electrical; inspection; muffler; oil_change.
Without preserving them in any other usefull, or more propper tag if needed.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/66006238
Simply removing true info is not a good deal.
Where and how would someone find those specific infos about car services
again?
Are you considering the validity of those previously tagged specific
infos, and the efforts of who did it to put valuable info in to OSM, in
your large-scale re-tagging?

Sérgio

8X-

Yeah, this should be discussed beforehand,
whether we then also tag all items in a supermarket,
or instead use more generic tags like food/non-food.

I'd suggest :

batteries; brakes:
car:parts=yes         OR         car:parts=batteries;brakes (if only)

electrical :
unclear what is meant, electrical repair or electric cars ?
either :
car:repair=yes        OR         car:repair=electrical (if only)
OR
car:type=electric

inspection
car:repair=inspection (if only, such as pitstop and similar)

muffler; oil_change
car:repair=muffler;oil_change (if only)

I think it's vital to follow those principles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardization#Effect_on_consumers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

Cheers,
Thilo

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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

I agree there seems to be a problem here that needs careful discussion &
consideration, but:

On 03.01.19 16:47, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
> So which ACTION should we take now ?
> At least those who introduced it should be in charge.

The ACTION should definitely not be you mass-editing things back to how
you think they should be tagged. This can be discussed here and we can
make a change AFTER that, not while.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Sérgio V .]

Even if the tag keys were not propper, you've just removed many specific 
information about services that were in the values, such as batteries; brakes; 
electrical; inspection; muffler; oil_change.
Without preserving them in any other usefull, or more propper tag if needed.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/66006238
Simply removing true info is not a good deal.
Where and how would someone find those specific infos about car services again?
Are you considering the validity of those previously tagged specific infos, and 
the efforts of who did it to put valuable info in to OSM, in your large-scale 
re-tagging?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Jan 2019, at 17:02, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
> 
> Forgot to mention :
> " it follows what `service:bicycle:*` does."
> is not true.


right, on the contrary service:vehicle doesn’t follow what service:bicycle 
does, it goes into competition with it 


Cheers, Martin 
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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Forgot to mention :
" it follows what `service:bicycle:*` does."
is not true.

And if you introduce a new system,
you should also explain the namespace structure.
And not just create a hard to find "notice"
which isn't linked to from the affected existing tags
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:vehicle

8X---

Bryan Housel bryan at 7thposition.com
Sun May 6 12:27:15 UTC 2018

    Previous message: [Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix
    Next message: [Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix
    Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

Hey all, this is something I added to iD because we can’t support
reusing the `service=*` tag to also store values for vehicle services. 
The tag is already overwhelmingly used to hold values for
`highway=service` and `railway=service`.

So we added `service:vehicle` for users to tag these, and it follows
what `service:bicycle:*` does.

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036107.html

8X---


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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

8X--
Bryan Housel bhousel at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 04:39:03 UTC 2019We discussed it here on this list last year.
You started the thread even, so you can’t pretend like you "just
realized” it.

I even asked people to update the wiki.
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036095.html

 
Anyway, be nice & happy new year.
8X--

Thanks for mentioning that, I really forgot about it.
At the time I obviously didn't realize the dimension of this
(implementing it in ID, and in which opulence).
Meanwhile it's destroying established tagging schemes and it's still not
documented
nor did someone take care to avoid further entries in the format which
triggered this decision (shop=car service=*).
And I'm afraid if I do there will be a lot of whiners crying "where has
this been discussed" ?

There was an appropriate comment at the time,
but it seems it's been ignored:

8X--
Martin Koppenhoefer
    dieterdreist at gmail.com
  
    Sun May  6 20:07:50 UTC 2018

introducing undocumented and formerly unused tags via preset without any
discussion or proposal process
is something I didn’t expect from the main osmf endorsed editor.
Are there more tags that have been introduced this way,
and if yes, have they been documented in the meantime?
8X--

So which ACTION should we take now ?
At least those who introduced it should be in charge.


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Re: [Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Bryan Housel]

We discussed it here on this list last year.  You started the thread even, so 
you can’t pretend like you "just realized” it.   
I even asked people to update the wiki.
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036095.html 

 
Anyway, be nice & happy new year.



> On Jan 2, 2019, at 11:13 PM, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> just realized there's a "great" new feature in ID editor,
> lots of senseless service tags in this format :
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=service%3Avehicle%3A
> 
> Seems to be over a year ago that someone decided to avoid conflicts
> between the "street" and the "car" services :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:vehicle
> 
> They just forgot to check whether it had some influences on existing
> tagging schemes
> and didn't even adjust the "shop=car" wiki page (whose tagging scheme
> apparently lead to this decision).
> 
> This leads to entries like this one :
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44809
> 
> Thoughts ?
> Ideas how to fix that ?
> At least this opulent tagging scheme should be deactivated ASAP in ID.
> 
> Cheers,
> Thilo
> 
> 
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[Tagging] A fool with a tool ... Vehicle service tags

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

just realized there's a "great" new feature in ID editor,
lots of senseless service tags in this format :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=service%3Avehicle%3A

Seems to be over a year ago that someone decided to avoid conflicts
between the "street" and the "car" services :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:vehicle

They just forgot to check whether it had some influences on existing
tagging schemes
and didn't even adjust the "shop=car" wiki page (whose tagging scheme
apparently lead to this decision).

This leads to entries like this one :
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44809

Thoughts ?
Ideas how to fix that ?
At least this opulent tagging scheme should be deactivated ASAP in ID.

Cheers,
Thilo


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