Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 23 Aug 2019 at 04:42,  wrote:

> Please checkout "Revision 1" of the draft in the tagging section.


 cash_withdrawal:buy_required


That is what I suggested, but it doesn't sound quite right - would it be
better as "purchase_required"?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 19:42,  wrote:

>
> Paul:
> I agree with you that this should be an attribute not a tag to use on
> every till. However we can't foresee how mappers will use it.
>

Your wiki page says it's not a standalone tag.  And if carto co-operate by
not rendering it,
then it shouldn't be too much of a problem.  Even less of a problem if
editors support it
as an optional property of shops.

Philip (off topic):
> Yes there should be a tag for those mini post offices. They spread all
> over Switzerland. Do you mind to prepare something? Recently I tried to map
> a DHL collection point and failed because amenity=post_office is definitely
> wrong.
>

If I understood him correctly, Philip wasn't talking about collection
points, and especially not
DHL collection points.

Post Offices in the UK are complicated.  The following is a rough guide
with many
simplifications.  Each town had a head post office, staffed by civil
servants, and which
did no business not related to the Post Office (which many years ago also
ran the phone
system in the UK, apart from in the city of Kingston upon Hull).  There
were often many sub
post offices in a town, located in shops, with partitions separating the
post office counter
from the shop counters.  Sub post offices offered just about everything the
head post office did.

Later, the phone system was split off from the post office.  And the post
office set up a sort of
banking system.  The post office banking system sort of came and went, but
currently exists.
So it is possible to use a credit or debit card to make cash withdrawals at
a head post office
or sub post office, without making a purchase, because it is also a very
cut-down bank.
In fact there is talk of making the post office bank do even more, because
many small towns
have lost all their branches of proper banks but still have a post office.
There's also talk
of making the post office the bank of last resort, for the kind of people
that real banks
refuse to do business with.

At  some point the post office allowed other shops to buy stamps for resale
as a convenience
for customers, but mainly so they could get rid of stamp machines from the
streets
because they were frequently vandalized to rob the coin boxes.

Later still, increasing high street rents forced some head post offices to
relocate into
special areas in supermarkets.  What was essentially the head post office
(because it
was the only post office) operated as a sub post office.  Philip was
talking of the fact
that although the post office area in a supermarket keeps post office
hours, some
supermarkets may have checkouts that offer some post office services
outside of
post office hours.  You can weigh a parcel at one of them, buy stamps for
the parcel
and maybe (I don't know) even send a parcel, but you can't pick up a parcel
waiting
for you to collect it.  You can only pick up a parcel at the actual post
office counter
in the supermarket and only during post office hours.

Oh, and along the way we privatized the delivery side of the business as
Royal
Mail.  Prompting somebody I know to suggest we should also privatize Royal
Family.

Not at all the same as convenience stores acting as collection points for
packages
sent via DHL, or from Amazon or whatever.  Just that peculiar institution
of the
British post office.

As I said, it's complicated.  And I simplified, a lot.  Others will be
along to fill in details
I omitted and to correct my errors.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[amilopowers]

Hello Everyone

Thank you for your comments, thoughts and ideas.

I try to answer to every point made and I am sorry if I miss something.

Please checkout "Revision 1" of the draft in the tagging section. Some of your 
questions are answered there because I agree with them. Furthermore I made some 
changes in the "Features/Pages affected" section. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Cash_withdrawal

Graeme:
Character limit:
I agree with you that it might not be too handy to find something in a long 
value but to enter it I personally find it easier like that. The payment scheme 
is very annoying IMHO. Character limit could indeed be a problem. Honestly have 
you ever seen a value with more than 255 characters?

Philip:
"Cash back"
Yes I have heard of that term in talk-ch yet but as Martin already said this 
would be very confusing for most mappers. I guess everyone else that British 
are more used to "withdraw money" at least I never met an ATM abroad with 
another term.

Paul:
I agree with you that this should be an attribute not a tag to use on every 
till. However we can't foresee how mappers will use it.

Philip (off topic):
Yes there should be a tag for those mini post offices. They spread all over 
Switzerland. Do you mind to prepare something? Recently I tried to map a DHL 
collection point and failed because amenity=post_office is definitely wrong.

Happy to hear more of you!

With my best regards
Ueli
 


Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
Am Donnerstag, August 22, 2019 3:29 PM schrieb Philip Barnes 
:

> 

> 

> On Thursday, 22 August 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
> 

> > On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 13:09, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
> > 

> > > In British English the term used is Cashback.
> > 

> > I can confirm that. I'm not sure, but I think it's only possible to get
> > cashback if you make
> > a purchase. But that could just be a policy of some stores, or I could be
> > completely wrong
> > (I've never tried to get cashback without making a purchase).
> > Its never been something I have thought of tagging, just an option we
> > 

> > > assume to be available at supermarkets.
> > 

> > And convenience stores, such as Spar (my local Spar doesn't charge for
> > cashback but I'm
> > told other shops in the franchise do).
> > I don't think it would be sensible to tag nodes with the intention of
> > having them rendered
> > in some way, as in a large supermarket it would mean mapping every till.
> > Even my local
> > Spar has three tills, and it's not a big shop. Probably best as a property
> > on the shop
> > itself.
> > Incidentally, I recall reading somewhere I cannot remember (and can
> > definitely not vouch
> > for the accuracy of the info) that cashback arose because banks charge a
> > fee on large(?)
> > shops depositing their takings, and that fee is a percentage of the size of
> > the deposit.
> > Various EPOS vendors decided they could give shops a cashback facility and
> > charge
> > a lower percentage of the transaction than the shop would pay a bank to
> > deposit it. If
> > this is all true, the shops aren't doing you a favour, they're doing
> > themselves a favour
> > by giving you an incentive to use them, doing themselves a favour by
> > reducing the
> > fee they pay the bank, and triple-dipping if they charge you for cashback.
> 

> Avoiding charges for banking cash is my understanding of the reason for shops 
> offing this service too.
> 

> Phil (trigpoint)
> 

> -
> 

> Sent from my Sailfish device
> 

> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Philip Barnes]

On 22/08/2019 15:47, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 13:09, Philip Barnes > wrote:


In British English the term used is Cashback.

I can confirm that.  I'm not sure, but I think it's only possible to 
get cashback if you make
a purchase.  But that could just be a policy of some stores, or I 
could be completely wrong

(I've never tried to get cashback without making a purchase).

I believe that is correct, you have to buy something, even if it costs a 
penny/cent so that they can open the till.


My local co-op has a separate area for the post office, which offers the 
full range of services but keeps normal post office hours.


The main co-op supermarket has a post office terminal, not sure what it 
can do but you can't tax your car or send off for a passport, but it has 
a scale to weigh parcels and also offers cash withdrawl which requires 
no purchase. This is available whenever the co-op is open Mo-Sa 
7:00-22:00 Su 10:00-16:00.


Is there, or should there be, a tag for these mini-post offices?

Is this a UK thing?

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Philip Barnes]

On Thursday, 22 August 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 13:09, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> > In British English the term used is Cashback.
> >
> I can confirm that.  I'm not sure, but I think it's only possible to get
> cashback if you make
> a purchase.  But that could just be a policy of some stores, or I could be
> completely wrong
> (I've never tried to get cashback without making a purchase).
> 
> Its never been something I have thought of tagging, just an option we
> > assume to be available at supermarkets.
> >
> 
> And convenience stores, such as Spar (my local Spar doesn't charge for
> cashback but I'm
> told other shops in the franchise do).
> 
> I don't think it would be sensible to tag nodes with the intention of
> having them rendered
> in some way, as in a large supermarket it would mean mapping every till.
> Even my local
> Spar has three tills, and it's not a big shop.  Probably best as a property
> on the shop
> itself.
> 
> Incidentally, I recall reading somewhere I cannot remember (and can
> definitely not vouch
> for the accuracy of the info) that cashback arose because banks charge a
> fee on large(?)
> shops depositing their takings, and that fee is a percentage of the size of
> the deposit.
> Various EPOS vendors decided they could give shops a cashback facility and
> charge
> a lower percentage of the transaction than the shop would pay a bank to
> deposit it.  If
> this is all true, the shops aren't doing you a favour, they're doing
> themselves a favour
> by giving you an incentive to use them, doing themselves a favour by
> reducing the
> fee they pay the bank, and triple-dipping if they charge you for cashback.
> 
Avoiding charges for banking cash is my understanding of the reason for shops 
offing this service too.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 14:28, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 22. Aug 2019, at 14:07, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> >
> > In British English the term used is Cashback.
>
> in Germany cashback is the name of a bonus program where you can get some
> money for sharing your personal data with the merchant when you buy
> something.


Here that's known generically as a loyalty scheme but most people only know
the name of
the specific card they use with a specific shop (with Tesco it's a "Club
Card") although there
is a less specific card called "Nectar" supported by several smaller chains.


> It would be deeply confusing for German users to use the same term for
> cash withdrawal.
>

I have to agree with you.  One of the cases where using British English
terminology would
be too confusing.  A quick search didn't reward me with a suitable generic
term but added
to the problems because it seems that Australia and New Zealand call it
"cash out.."  The
closest I can get to a generic term is "debit card cashback" which I don't
think clarifies
matters enough to keep the German mappers happy.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 13:09, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> In British English the term used is Cashback.
>
I can confirm that.  I'm not sure, but I think it's only possible to get
cashback if you make
a purchase.  But that could just be a policy of some stores, or I could be
completely wrong
(I've never tried to get cashback without making a purchase).

Its never been something I have thought of tagging, just an option we
> assume to be available at supermarkets.
>

And convenience stores, such as Spar (my local Spar doesn't charge for
cashback but I'm
told other shops in the franchise do).

I don't think it would be sensible to tag nodes with the intention of
having them rendered
in some way, as in a large supermarket it would mean mapping every till.
Even my local
Spar has three tills, and it's not a big shop.  Probably best as a property
on the shop
itself.

Incidentally, I recall reading somewhere I cannot remember (and can
definitely not vouch
for the accuracy of the info) that cashback arose because banks charge a
fee on large(?)
shops depositing their takings, and that fee is a percentage of the size of
the deposit.
Various EPOS vendors decided they could give shops a cashback facility and
charge
a lower percentage of the transaction than the shop would pay a bank to
deposit it.  If
this is all true, the shops aren't doing you a favour, they're doing
themselves a favour
by giving you an incentive to use them, doing themselves a favour by
reducing the
fee they pay the bank, and triple-dipping if they charge you for cashback.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2019, at 14:07, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> In British English the term used is Cashback.


in Germany cashback is the name of a bonus program where you can get some money 
for sharing your personal data with the merchant when you buy something. It 
would be deeply confusing for German users to use the same term for cash 
withdrawal.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Philip Barnes]

In British English the term used is Cashback.

Although only used once according to taginfo.

Its never been something I have thought of tagging, just an option we 
assume to be available at supermarkets.


Phil (trigpoint)


On 21/08/2019 19:53, amilopow...@u-cloud.ch wrote:

Hello

I filed a draft for a new tag called "cash_withdrawal".

Please comment in the wiki. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Cash_withdrawal


With my best regards
Ueli aka amilopowers


Sent from ProtonMail , encrypted email based in 
Switzerland.




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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[JS]

Good idea! These services are expanding here in Germany, too.

Am 21. August 2019 20:53:08 MESZ schrieb amilopow...@u-cloud.ch:
>Hello
>
>I filed a draft for a new tag called "cash_withdrawal".
>
>Please comment in the wiki.
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Cash_withdrawal
>
>With my best regards
>Ueli aka amilopowers
>
>
>Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland.
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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Warin]

On 22/08/19 07:41, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Commenting in both places

Not a bad idea as it would be handy to know that you can get cash out 
"here".


Some potential issues I can see though.

How much can I get out ($100 max)? A supermarket cashier may be able 
to give me $500, but a corner milk-bar may be only $50.


Do you need to specify which currency? eg Can I ask for € in the UK, 
or US$, or is it expected that you can only withdraw the local currency?


"To tag whether there is cash withdrawal and with what banks/brands use:

cash_withdrawal 
=no// for 
example: cash_withdrawal 
=migros_bank 
;postfinance_card 
;bank_of_america 
"


By the time you add in all the possible banks / cards, that will 
become very unwieldy & hard to read, & there is also a character limit 
that will apply.


"Basically to everything where you can get cash with the help from 
personnel. If you can get the money yourself atm 
=yes or amenity 
=atm 
 should be 
used. The new tagging should for example be used at: 
supermarket,convenience,bar,cafe,kiosk"


Here in Australia, at least the 2 biggest supermarket chains have 
self-serve checkouts that allow you to put your groceries through 
yourself, but also allow you to withdraw cash. It is also possible to 
use these checkouts to only withdraw cash without actually buying 
anything. How would these be tagged?


"Rendering

None."


Would probably actually be good idea to render them with the standard 
ATM symbol, so that if you look at a map, you can see that you can get 
cash out here, here or there!




'Cash out' is normally a "payment option" so possibly it should be part 
of the payment tagging?

Is payment tagging rendered? I think not.
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Re: [Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Commenting in both places

Not a bad idea as it would be handy to know that you can get cash out
"here".

Some potential issues I can see though.

How much can I get out ($100 max)? A supermarket cashier may be able to
give me $500, but a corner milk-bar may be only $50.

Do you need to specify which currency? eg Can I ask for € in the UK, or
US$, or is it expected that you can only withdraw the local currency?

"To tag whether there is cash withdrawal and with what banks/brands use:

cash_withdrawal

=no/**/** for example: cash_withdrawal

=migros_bank

;postfinance_card

;bank_of_america

"
By the time you add in all the possible banks / cards, that will become
very unwieldy & hard to read, & there is also a character limit that will
apply.

"Basically to everything where you can get cash with the help from
personnel. If you can get the money yourself atm
=yes or amenity
=atm
 should be used. The
new tagging should for example be used at:
supermarket,convenience,bar,cafe,kiosk"

Here in Australia, at least the 2 biggest supermarket chains have
self-serve checkouts that allow you to put your groceries through yourself,
but also allow you to withdraw cash. It is also possible to use these
checkouts to only withdraw cash without actually buying anything. How would
these be tagged?

"Rendering

None."


Would probably actually be good idea to render them with the standard ATM
symbol, so that if you look at a map, you can see that you can get cash out
here, here or there!
Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Cash_withdrawal draft

[amilopowers]

Hello

I filed a draft for a new tag called "cash_withdrawal".

Please comment in the wiki. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Cash_withdrawal

With my best regards
Ueli aka amilopowers


Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland.

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