Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 31.07.19 09:34, Warin wrote:
> There is no present default unit for power - see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
> Adding a default would be good

Why would it be good to add a default value?

I believe explicit units are generally preferable because they avoid
ambiguity and misunderstandings. With other tags, values without an
explicit unit are already common in the database, so this usage needs to
be documented. But introducing a default for a tag that is generally
used with explicit units doesn't seem useful unless you *want* people to
start omitting the units and rely on the default.

> And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the
> numeric values and the units, if any.

The wiki mentions this as a general rule: "The following units can be
explicitly specified by adding them after the numeric value, separated
by a space". But I agree that this recommendation should also
be repeated on Key:* pages.

Tobias



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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Warin]

On 31/07/19 20:28, Paul Allen wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 08:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



Err the wiki could state the default is kW.
There is no present default unit for power - see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
Adding a default would be good, and kW is probably the most
universal in this case, but for power generation MW is more universal.


There have been sporadic discussions here about mapping the 
availability of USB charger

outlets.  A default of kW doesn't suit everything.


USB outlets are typically specified by the current capability. So I 
would not tag power on them but current.

Say, current=0.5 A or current=2.1 A .. where A stands for Ampere.


But, assuming we agree that SI multipliers
can be used, then sure, kW is a reasonable default.  I would also 
propose that any value

that defaults to any SI unit should allow SI multipliers.

And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the
numeric values and the units, if any.
This is the case for all other units so the convention should be held.


It is certainly desirable that a space be there (in non-monospaced 
fonts, a good typographer
would insert a thin space rather than a full space, this does conform 
to SI requirements for
spacing).  However, people are fallible and may omit the space for 
many reasons (didn't
read the documentation, typo, etc.).  It would be nice if editors (at 
a minimum, it could be
applied to other steps in the chain too) applied Postel's robustness 
principle: "Be conservative
in what you send, be liberal in what you accept."  I.e., an editor 
would allow a user to enter
"7kW" but would upload it as "7 kW."  Some editors already strip 
superfluous spaces from
values (of any kind) so this would not be a drastic break from what 
they currently do.

+1


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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 08:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Err the wiki could state the default is kW.
> There is no present default unit for power - see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
> Adding a default would be good, and kW is probably the most universal in
> this case, but for power generation MW is more universal.
>

There have been sporadic discussions here about mapping the availability of
USB charger
outlets.  A default of kW doesn't suit everything.  But, assuming we agree
that SI multipliers
can be used, then sure, kW is a reasonable default.  I would also propose
that any value
that defaults to any SI unit should allow SI multipliers.

And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the numeric
> values and the units, if any.
> This is the case for all other units so the convention should be held.
>

It is certainly desirable that a space be there (in non-monospaced fonts, a
good typographer
would insert a thin space rather than a full space, this does conform to SI
requirements for
spacing).  However, people are fallible and may omit the space for many
reasons (didn't
read the documentation, typo, etc.).  It would be nice if editors (at a
minimum, it could be
applied to other steps in the chain too) applied Postel's robustness
principle: "Be conservative
in what you send, be liberal in what you accept."  I.e., an editor would
allow a user to enter
"7kW" but would upload it as "7 kW."  Some editors already strip
superfluous spaces from
values (of any kind) so this would not be a drastic break from what they
currently do.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Warin]

On 31/07/19 01:39, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

The tag socket::output has been used 5000 times, so I think it's
best to describe existing usage on the wiki. The current usage is to
tag the units, which are almost always kW:

socket:type2:output has been used 3663 times, and the majority (>70%)
are tagged with 22kW, 22 kW, 43kW and 11 kW - they all have kW after
the number, but the presence of a space is variable.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/socket%3Atype2%3Aoutput#values

socket:chademo:output has been used 1 275 times, and 91% are tagged
50kW or 50 kW - there are 12 with 5 and 11 with 50 and no units
(0.1% each).

socket:schuko:output has been used 1 306 times and 80% are tagged
3.6kW, with another 11% tagged 3.7␣kW - all but one common value
included kW as a unit (3700 is used 11 times; 0.1%).

socket:typee:output has been used 128 times, and 84% area tagged "3
kW", none have no units.

socket:type1:output is used 83 times, all values end with "kW"

socket:tesla_supercharger:output is used 72 times, all values end with
"kW" except 2 (one is 12, the other 120).

So 99% have the format "kW" or " kW" with a space.

I think the wiki should state that the output is specified in kW and
the unit is specified, to match current usage.


Err the wiki could state the default is kW.
There is no present default unit for power - see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
Adding a default would be good, and kW is probably the most universal in this 
case, but for power generation MW is more universal.


And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the numeric 
values and the units, if any.
This is the case for all other units so the convention should be held.



Joseph

On 7/30/19, dktue  wrote:

OSM typically places unit after the value.
For examples see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications

In Some cases the unit is omitted and a default is assumed. Would this
default be "kW" in this case?





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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[brad]

On 7/30/19 2:59 AM, Warin wrote:

On 30/07/19 12:38, brad wrote:
I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a 
number, then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key 
should specify, output-kw=22 .


OSM typically places unit after the value.
For examples see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications

+1  I think this is best.







On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not 
always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per 
hour).


Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue 
mailto:em...@daniel-korn.de>>:


Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket::output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would
like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other
OSM-values (no
units).



generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation 
reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.


For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for 
many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 
30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)


Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would 
prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers 
for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have 
the same standard unit for all things power, and not different 
defaults for socket and say power stations.


Cheers,
Martin






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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The tag socket::output has been used 5000 times, so I think it's
best to describe existing usage on the wiki. The current usage is to
tag the units, which are almost always kW:

socket:type2:output has been used 3663 times, and the majority (>70%)
are tagged with 22kW, 22 kW, 43kW and 11 kW - they all have kW after
the number, but the presence of a space is variable.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/socket%3Atype2%3Aoutput#values

socket:chademo:output has been used 1 275 times, and 91% are tagged
50kW or 50 kW - there are 12 with 5 and 11 with 50 and no units
(0.1% each).

socket:schuko:output has been used 1 306 times and 80% are tagged
3.6kW, with another 11% tagged 3.7␣kW - all but one common value
included kW as a unit (3700 is used 11 times; 0.1%).

socket:typee:output has been used 128 times, and 84% area tagged "3
kW", none have no units.

socket:type1:output is used 83 times, all values end with "kW"

socket:tesla_supercharger:output is used 72 times, all values end with
"kW" except 2 (one is 12, the other 120).

So 99% have the format "kW" or " kW" with a space.

I think the wiki should state that the output is specified in kW and
the unit is specified, to match current usage.

Joseph

On 7/30/19, dktue  wrote:
>
>> OSM typically places unit after the value.
>> For examples see
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications
> In Some cases the unit is omitted and a default is assumed. Would this
> default be "kW" in this case?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[dktue]

OSM typically places unit after the value.
For examples see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications
In Some cases the unit is omitted and a default is assumed. Would this 
default be "kW" in this case?



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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Warin]

On 30/07/19 12:38, brad wrote:
I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a 
number, then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key should 
specify, output-kw=22 .


OSM typically places unit after the value.
For examples see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications





On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not 
always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per 
hour).


Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue 
mailto:em...@daniel-korn.de>>:


Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket::output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would
like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other
OSM-values (no
units).



generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation 
reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.


For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for 
many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 
30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)


Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would 
prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers 
for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have 
the same standard unit for all things power, and not different 
defaults for socket and say power stations.


Cheers,
Martin





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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Lionel Giard]

All electric charging station that i have ever encounter are in "kW" not in
watt (ex: 3 kW, 50 kW, 120 kW, 175 kW...). To me, it is the same as the
maxspeed tag, we don't put it in m/h but in km/h -> we use the common unit
as everyone use it. Thus we don't use the SI value everywhere and that seem
logical, so here it seems ok to me to leave it in kW.

Le mar. 30 juil. 2019 à 04:40, brad  a écrit :

> I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a number,
> then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key should specify,
> output-kw=22 .
>
>
> On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
>
> I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not always
> using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).
>
> Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
>
> Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue :
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
>> socket::output=watt
>>
>> wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".
>>
>> What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
>> clearify this on the wiki-page.
>>
>> Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
>> units).
>
>
>
> generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons
> and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.
>
> For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units
>
> And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many
> people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses,
> but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)
>
> Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer
> kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g.
> needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard
> unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say
> power stations.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[brad]

I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a 
number, then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key should 
specify, output-kw=22 .



On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not 
always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).


Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue 
mailto:em...@daniel-korn.de>>:


Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket::output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would
like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other
OSM-values (no
units).



generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation 
reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.


For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for 
many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 
horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)


Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would 
prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for 
MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the 
same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults 
for socket and say power stations.


Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Warin]

The use of 'multipliers' is common ..

As well as kilometers per hour (100 kmh would be come 100,000 mh without 
the multiplier) there is mass kg and tonnes .. (10kg would be come 
10,000 g with the multiplier) , elevation in meters and kilometers etc.


Preference should be for what is commonly used for that particular 
amount and feature.


I would leave this alone - let the mapper use that thing that should be 
applied - common sense.


On 29/07/19 21:00, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not 
always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).


Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue 
mailto:em...@daniel-korn.de>>:


Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket::output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would
like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other
OSM-values (no
units).



generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation 
reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.


For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for 
many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 
horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)


Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would 
prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for 
MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the 
same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults 
for socket and say power stations.


Cheers,
Martin



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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[dktue]

I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not 
always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).


Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue >:


Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket::output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would
like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values
(no
units).



generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation 
reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.


For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many 
people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 
horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)


Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would 
prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for 
MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the 
same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults 
for socket and say power stations.


Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue :

> Hello,
>
> the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
> socket::output=watt
>
> wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".
>
> What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
> clearify this on the wiki-page.
>
> Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
> units).



generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and
to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many
people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses,
but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer
kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g.
needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard
unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say
power stations.

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Charging stations: socket::output -- which format for the value?

[dktue]

Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag 
socket::output=watt


wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to 
clearify this on the wiki-page.


Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no 
units).


Cheers,
dktue

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station

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