Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 18/08/2010 01:17, John Smith wrote: On 18 August 2010 08:25, Andreas Labresl...@lab.at wrote: I can't follow your argument here. A dancing school (or is ist called dance school? in which part of the English world?) is an amenity, is it not? The term amenity, if used in the vaguest form, can almost mean anything. And you do want a generic amenity icon? For what? For the category of various schools... of various trainings, clubs (dancing, bridge, sport, music)... ? or of various schools, primary, secondary... ? Even if dance schools share a part of they name with the scholar system, it is obvious that they are not in the same category, at least in France, and could not share the same icon. And the suggestion of adding a 'training' value to the amenities doesn't hurt me. -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
2010/8/18 Vincent Pottier vpott...@gmail.com: On 18/08/2010 01:17, John Smith wrote: On 18 August 2010 08:25, Andreas Labresl...@lab.at wrote: I can't follow your argument here. A dancing school (or is ist called dance school? in which part of the English world?) is an amenity, is it not? The term amenity, if used in the vaguest form, can almost mean anything. And you do want a generic amenity icon? For what? For the category of various schools... of various trainings, clubs (dancing, bridge, sport, music)... ? or of various schools, primary, secondary... ? Even if dance schools share a part of they name with the scholar system, it is obvious that they are not in the same category, at least in France, and could not share the same icon. And the suggestion of adding a 'training' value to the amenities doesn't hurt me. teaching would be another good word. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 18 August 2010 01:06, Surly_ru p...@isnet.ru wrote: I agree!! The term training here is much more suitable than school. My recommendation is amenity=training + training=dance. -1 The whole point of all the was to avoid adding any more amenity=* tags unnecessarily, it's already an overly abused dumping ground and makes it difficult for doing generic icons for POIs... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
My recommendation is amenity=training + training=dance. -1 The whole point of all the was to avoid adding any more amenity=* tags unnecessarily OK! Let's discard amenity. Only training=dance is good too. My suggestion is not about amenity. It is about changing school to training. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17.08.10 17:11, John Smith wrote: The whole point of all the was to avoid adding any more amenity=* tags unnecessarily, it's already an overly abused dumping ground and makes it difficult for doing generic icons for POIs... I can't follow your argument here. A dancing school (or is ist called dance school? in which part of the English world?) is an amenity, is it not? And you do want a generic amenity icon? For what? /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 18 August 2010 01:28, Surly_ru p...@isnet.ru wrote: Wouldn't that be a little counter initiative since they are called dance schools, driving school, etc ? These short-term training courses for adults are very different from educational schools for children, despite of their name. So let's don't mix them. There is plenty of things, like dance schools, that both adults and children can go to on a long term basis... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
Proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dancing_school /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 05:15, Andreas Labres l...@lab.at wrote: Proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dancing_school I'm wondering if a sub-tag would be more useful, eg amenity=school school=dance That way you could group other similar schools, like martial arts, using school=* would also allow you to better tag existing schools, eg primary/middle/secondary/tertiary ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 07:41, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: amenity=school school=middle I know I brought up middle schools, but are they deemed a type of secondary school? The reason I ask, it might be more useful to tag which grades, for example in Australia there are central schools which cover k-10 or k-12 and they primary+secondary at the same location... school=truck_driving school=driving driving:type=[car|truck|bike] ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
2010/8/16 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: school=truck_driving school=driving driving:type=[car|truck|bike] what about school=dolphins for a school of dolphins? Or hospital=tree nursery? IMHO we shouldn't create our categories/keys only based on language which might sometimes be ambiguous or misleading. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 07:57, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: -1, IMHO no. A dancing school, boxing school, ski school, etc. are IMHO not in the same category than general-education schools. They might be classified in one category, but that is IMHO not school. That's what the sub tag is for, a school is where you gain knowledge or experience in what is being taught, so as long as the sub-tag distinguishes things sufficiently, and this is where primary/secondary or even just school=general would come in, there should be no issue. are they similar, martial arts schools and highschools? You attend to be taught don't you? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 08:03, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: what about school=dolphins for a school of dolphins? Or hospital=tree nursery? IMHO we shouldn't create our categories/keys only based on language which might sometimes be ambiguous or misleading. So far you seem to be giving silly examples, all the school examples I gave were for people wanting, or forced to, to learn or gain experience... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 8/16/10 6:06 PM, John Smith wrote: On 17 August 2010 08:03, M∡rtin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: what about school=dolphins for a school of dolphins? Or hospital=tree nursery? IMHO we shouldn't create our categories/keys only based on language which might sometimes be ambiguous or misleading. So far you seem to be giving silly examples, all the school examples I gave were for people wanting, or forced to, to learn or gain experience... yes, really, that's more ridicule than an argument, Martin. not at all up to your usual high standard. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
Am 17.08.2010 00:31, schrieb John Smith: On 17 August 2010 08:24, Ulf Lampingulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: What is the benefit to put this all under amenity=school - and then have a tag no renderer actually can use, because it is far too generic? The benefit is an existing tag that isn't very specific, so we could imply the existing tag to be amenity=school, school=general if there is no school=* tag. That's not a benefit, that's only one of the possible definitions. Implying a specific meaning in the absence of a tag is usually asking for trouble. People tend to forget tags while not knowing your implication. Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
2010/8/17 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 17 August 2010 08:24, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: What is the benefit to put this all under amenity=school - and then have a tag no renderer actually can use, because it is far too generic? The benefit is an existing tag that isn't very specific, so we could imply the existing tag to be amenity=school, school=general if there is no school=* tag. it doesn't change the good point Ulf made: a potential data consumer would have to know all school types for a pleasant results. Currently most schools are tagged with amenity=school and maybe a name. This is sufficient for many maps. If we now start to put all kind of special interest schools, sports facilities and other in this category, it will get useless. Renderers would have to know all local types of general schools that will get entered in the subtag school (because it will not remain general and because it is a good idea to tag school=fr:lycee, de:Gymnasium, it:liceo, highschool, etc.). Or they will only evaluate one tag (amenity=school) because they do this for years, and they will start to display rubbish. I'm generally in favour of subtagging, where it is adequat. I just don't see the benefit here and worse, I feel it would harm. In the case of schools I think there are already enough different types of general-education schools to differentiate. If you make a map of schools you will in most cases don't want the boxing schools in. Another hint might be to see how others handle this. If you look at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_by_country there is not the faintest hint to other than general education schools. No word about driving schools or dancing schools. They are very different. Really. Btw: the OSM Wiki refers to Wikipedia's definition of school. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 08:53, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: it doesn't change the good point Ulf made: a potential data consumer would have to know all school types for a pleasant results. Currently That's actually a reason to sub-tag, so they can show a generic icon instead of needing to constantly update their rendering style sheet for a new amenity added every other day. most schools are tagged with amenity=school and maybe a name. This is sufficient for many maps. If we now start to put all kind of special interest schools, sports facilities and other in this category, it will get useless. Renderers would have to know all local types of general schools that will get entered in the subtag school (because it will not remain general and because it is a good idea to tag school=fr:lycee, de:Gymnasium, it:liceo, highschool, etc.). Or they will only evaluate one tag (amenity=school) because they do this for years, and they will start to display rubbish. You seem to be trying to convince me that subtagging is a good idea and others are already doing it anyway. I'm generally in favour of subtagging, where it is adequat. I just don't see the benefit here and worse, I feel it would harm. In the case of schools I think there are already enough different types of general-education schools to differentiate. If you make a map of schools you will in most cases don't want the boxing schools in. You haven't really shown a bad harm, schools will continue to render as is, these other types of schools are also for learning, so where is the problem? Another hint might be to see how others handle this. If you look at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_by_country there is not the faintest hint to other than general education schools. No word about driving schools or dancing schools. They are very different. Really. Btw: the OSM Wiki refers to Wikipedia's definition of school. Wikipedia is a good starting point for research, but no one usually uses them as a primary source. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
2010/8/17 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 17 August 2010 08:53, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: it doesn't change the good point Ulf made: a potential data consumer would have to know all school types for a pleasant results. Currently That's actually a reason to sub-tag, so they can show a generic icon instead of needing to constantly update their rendering style sheet for a new amenity added every other day. The point was (maybe my message was too long to get this clear) that the same generic icon for schools which do general education in the morning and maybe afternoon to kids AND the same time for all other places that educate all kind of people at all times in all kind of special interests like dancing, driving, swimming, cooking, boxing, playing chess, knitting, sex, etc. is IMHO a bad idea. You seem to be trying to convince me that subtagging is a good idea and others are already doing it anyway. yes, the ones that said they were doing it did it the way I promote it: for real schools. You haven't really shown a bad harm, schools will continue to render as is, these other types of schools are also for learning, so where is the problem? too generic. Schools will not be distinguishable any more. very different. Really. Btw: the OSM Wiki refers to Wikipedia's definition of school. Wikipedia is a good starting point for research, but no one usually uses them as a primary source. Well OSM did. The definition of the wiki says in the first line: see wikipedia and a link to: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dschool cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 8/16/10 7:23 PM, John Smith wrote: On 17 August 2010 09:20, M∡rtin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: The point was (maybe my message was too long to get this clear) that the same generic icon for schools which do general education in the morning and maybe afternoon to kids AND the same time for all other places that educate all kind of people at all times in all kind of special interests like dancing, driving, swimming, cooking, boxing, playing chess, knitting, sex, etc. is IMHO a bad idea. Ok, so don't use amenity=school, but do you agree that maybe these other schools could be still tagged as school=* instead of amenity=dance_school, amenity=driving_school etc? right, amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= i don't object to splitting that way, but there's no good reason to further pollute amenity when we can subtag with school= richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17 August 2010 09:29, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= i don't object to splitting that way, but there's no good reason to further pollute amenity when we can subtag with school= Do we even need an amenity tag? After all we don't tag shops as amenity=shop, shop=*... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17.08.10 01:29, Richard Welty wrote: amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= I can't see any benefit subsuming those ...schools that are no schools under one tag. They all need special icons, there is no generic icon for these. One more thing, a dancing school has more of a leisure time amusement, sometimes of practicing good behaviour, than of lerning (the steps). /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 8/16/10 8:39 PM, Andreas Labres wrote: On 17.08.10 01:29, Richard Welty wrote: amenity=special_school or something on that order, and then subtag with school= I can't see any benefit subsuming those ...schools that are no schools under one tag. They all need special icons, there is no generic icon for these. One more thing, a dancing school has more of a leisure time amusement, sometimes of practicing good behaviour, than of lerning (the steps). there are dancing schools and there are dancing schools, my daughter has gone to both. it's not a good idea to generalize something like this. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dancing school
On 17.08.10 02:46, Richard Welty wrote: there are dancing schools and there are dancing schools Well, maybe we need a subtag... ;) /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
