Re: [Tagging] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I just realized that if you try to edit a wiki data item, it records a
change every time you edit a single line. So if you delete 3
"combinations", you make 3 new edits in the history. I didn't see an
option to add a comment about my edits, but perhaps I missed it.

This makes it nearly impossible to "follow" the wiki data items like
you would follow a Tag: or Key: page.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 1/15/20, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
>
>
> 15 Jan 2020, 14:10 by ajt1...@gmail.com:
>
>> On 15/01/2020 12:03, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> 15 Jan 2020, 12:57 by >> marc_marc_...@hotmail.com>> :
>>>
 I'm very unhappywith that.


>>> Please, please comment on the OSM Wiki if you want tocomment.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> What would be useful is a separate discussion about what wiki  "data
>> items" are and why there are a good (or bad) idea.  That  doesn't
>> really belong in >
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Transition_to_use_data_items_when_this_can_be_done_without_loosing_information>
>>  because that seems tied up in the specifics of one particular tag
>> (and lets be honest, wiki pages aren't good at threaded  discussion).
>>
>>
> I kind of agree, but I am not someone who started the disussion.
>
> It is complaining about my specific edit as an example but proposes
> something more general.
>
>>
>> Maybe someone who thinks this particular change is a good (or  bad)
>> idea should write a diary entry or create a thread here  explaining
>> what the point of the change is and what the benefits  are, and what
>> the impact on people who use the wiki for reference  and on people who
>> edit it is?
>>
>>
> If someone wants to change current state (remove data from Wiki pages and
> move it somewhere
> else) then they should explain why it is worth doing.
>
> Change should not be done for a sake of change.
>
> Personally, I tried using data items and immediately encountered severe
> problems
> (some listed in the linked wiki discussion).
>
>>
>> There is a page > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items>  but
>> that fails to communicate much of that to me (someone whose  first
>> language is English and has been reading technical  documentation for
>> 40 years).  Until that happens the rest of us  are just going to
>> assume that the OSM wiki is a series of pages  that we can just edit
>> to document things in OSM to help other  mappers (which presumably was
>> the original point) and ignore  anything else
>>
>>
> +1
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15 Jan 2020, 14:10 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 15/01/2020 12:03, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
>>
>> 15 Jan 2020, 12:57 by >> marc_marc_...@hotmail.com>> :
>>
>>> I'm very unhappywith that.
>>>  
>>>
>> Please, please comment on the OSM Wiki if you want tocomment.
>>
>>
>
> What would be useful is a separate discussion about what wiki  "data 
> items" are and why there are a good (or bad) idea.  That  doesn't really 
> belong in > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Transition_to_use_data_items_when_this_can_be_done_without_loosing_information>
>   because that seems tied up in the specifics of one particular tag  (and 
> lets be honest, wiki pages aren't good at threaded  discussion).
>
>
I kind of agree, but I am not someone who started the disussion.

It is complaining about my specific edit as an example but proposes something 
more general.

>
> Maybe someone who thinks this particular change is a good (or  bad) idea 
> should write a diary entry or create a thread here  explaining what the 
> point of the change is and what the benefits  are, and what the impact on 
> people who use the wiki for reference  and on people who edit it is?  
>
>
If someone wants to change current state (remove data from Wiki pages and move 
it somewhere
else) then they should explain why it is worth doing.

Change should not be done for a sake of change.

Personally, I tried using data items and immediately encountered severe 
problems 
(some listed in the linked wiki discussion).

>
> There is a page > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items>  but that 
> fails to communicate much of that to me (someone whose  first language is 
> English and has been reading technical  documentation for 40 years).  
> Until that happens the rest of us  are just going to assume that the OSM 
> wiki is a series of pages  that we can just edit to document things in 
> OSM to help other  mappers (which presumably was the original point) and 
> ignore  anything else
>
>
+1

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Re: [Tagging] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/01/2020 12:03, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:


15 Jan 2020, 12:57 by marc_marc_...@hotmail.com:

I'm very unhappy with that.

Please, please comment on the OSM Wiki if you want to comment.


What would be useful is a separate discussion about what wiki "data 
items" are and why there are a good (or bad) idea.  That doesn't really 
belong in 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Transition_to_use_data_items_when_this_can_be_done_without_loosing_information 
because that seems tied up in the specifics of one particular tag (and 
lets be honest, wiki pages aren't good at threaded discussion).


Maybe someone who thinks this particular change is a good (or bad) idea 
should write a diary entry or create a thread here explaining what the 
point of the change is and what the benefits are, and what the impact on 
people who use the wiki for reference and on people who edit it is?


There is a page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items but that 
fails to communicate much of that to me (someone whose first language is 
English and has been reading technical documentation for 40 years).  
Until that happens the rest of us are just going to assume that the OSM 
wiki is a series of pages that we can just edit to document things in 
OSM to help other mappers (which presumably was the original point) and 
ignore anything else.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

[Simon Poole]

Yes I was just going to point out that
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/taginfo/apidoc#api_4_key_wiki_pages
wouldn't return the combination info if removed from the page.

That doesn't mean that we can't change the wiki, but it needs to be a
coordinated effort that includes adapting the most important tools.

Simon

Am 15.01.2020 um 12:57 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 15.01.20 à 12:49, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
>> Anyone with opinion on that topic is welcomed to comment in this
>> discussion on the OSM Wiki.
> I'm very unhappy with that.
> some tools use wiki and not data items (for ex taginfo)
> doing that destroy usefull information.
> in fact I'm unhappy with the write acces to data items that has been
> done too early, all major tools must first be migrated to the dataitems.
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Re: [Tagging] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15 Jan 2020, 12:57 by marc_marc_...@hotmail.com:

> Le 15.01.20 à 12:49, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
>
>> Anyone with opinion on that topic is welcomed to comment in this
>> discussion on the OSM Wiki.
>>
>
> I'm very unhappy with that.
> some tools use wiki and not data items (for ex taginfo)
> doing that destroy usefull information.
> in fact I'm unhappy with the write acces to data items that has been
> done too early, all major tools must first be migrated to the dataitems.
>
Please, please comment on the OSM Wiki if you want to comment.

I posted about this discussion across several platforms (slack, mailing lists, 
telegram),
but it was intended to direct to a single discussion rather than start several 
separate ones.

Comments made outside the talk page thread on the Wiki are likely to be just 
ignored.

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Re: [Tagging] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

[marc marc]

Le 15.01.20 à 12:49, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
> Anyone with opinion on that topic is welcomed to comment in this
> discussion on the OSM Wiki.

I'm very unhappy with that.
some tools use wiki and not data items (for ex taginfo)
doing that destroy usefull information.
in fact I'm unhappy with the write acces to data items that has been
done too early, all major tools must first be migrated to the dataitems.
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[Tagging] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

[Mateusz Konieczny]

PangoSE started "Transition to use data items when this can be done without 
loosing information"
discussion at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Transition_to_use_data_items_when_this_can_be_done_without_loosing_information
 


It is about whatever it is correct to delete data from the OSM Wiki page after 
it was copied to data items.

Anyone with opinion on that topic is welcomed to comment in this discussion on 
the OSM Wiki.
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