Re: [Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com That seems okay to me. Not for me. I think the address is a feature by ifself, not an attribute of other features (like 'name'). For instance, a routing software cares about a unique address when only the address is provided. In this case, it is more important to drive the car (of walker or biker) to the entrance or facade than pointing to one of the shops in the building (which might lead to a wrong street). And I think we should follow the principle one feature, one OSM element: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/One_feature,_one_OSM_element We don't map to the renderer, so if it's both, it's both. But the renderer is also a mean to detect duplicates ;-) If you feel strongly it should only be on one, let it be on the shop, and if two shops share the same housenumber, so be it, because it's true. You have 2 other possibilities : link the shops with the address element with a relation (already mentionned). Or draw a building (or room) polygone for each address and attach the address to this polygon or the entrance node. No, it's one building, but I live in New York city, and buildings here are often a mix of retail and residential, with retail on the bottom floors and residential on the top floors, and they share the same housenumber. Correct. And it is much simplier for all data consumers if we put the address only once, and not sometimes on shops and sometimes not on the appartments. I don't like complex relations, either as a mapper or as a tool author. Working with them as a mapper is a pain, and writing tools that understand them is also hard. We try to use relations only when we have no alternative. Drawing a simple polygon with a closed way is easier than creating a multipolygon relation. For addresses, most of them have a simple 1:1 relationship with a building (probable not in urban areas). We could accept address relations when the relationship between address, building and POI's is not 1:1. (but again, the relation is one option, the other is a polygon per address) Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
2013/7/19 Pieren pier...@gmail.com For addresses, most of them have a simple 1:1 relationship with a building (probable not in urban areas). This really depends on the area, in some German regions the address is for a site, and (if needed) for entrances to buildings or staircases on that site, this means, also a site (parcel) with no buildings will have an address. And if several parcels have been used together for one bigger building or building complex they will have more addresses or a postal address like foo street 139-146 for the whole complex, but in some cases there would still be a building part of this complex that has an individual address foo street 141 (happens e.g. with universities). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Example use case: a corporate campus with multiple buildings, but a single postal address. Either your corporate campus is a single polygone (containing the buildings), then put the address on this polygon. Or the campus is a spread and you can use the site relation and put the address there. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:site Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
There are two things concerning house numbers, I do not know how to tag correctly: --- 1. Double house numbers: I want to tag the house number 101 of a shop. The building in which the romms of the shop are located has the house numbers 97,99,101,103,105,107,109. The house numbers of the building are either tagged on the entrances each or on the building-way (here: addr:housenumber=97,99,101,103,105,107,109) since the association to the entrances is unknown. Because there are several shops with the same house number, there would be several nodes or ways with the same house number. And only one is concerning the building/entrance. For those who would like to have an example from the real world - here it is: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.101067lon=8.787526zoom=18layers=M I assume that it is not a clean solution to add addr:housenumber to each shop, because it would be harder to identify house number errors. Another thing is that renderers are double-rendering those house numbers (which is better than the opposite) and since some rooms are added to a building (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr), house numbers are there not only twice. I could imagine two solutions: - Creating a house number relation (but there are too few editors able to edit relations) - Defining a tagging scheme for shops which is like contact:housenumber. --- 2. Misfitting house numbers: I want to tag a shop which is situated in two buildings. One is only concerning the shop (house number 16) and the other (house number 14) is also concerning flats. The shop has the address 14-16 which means that none of the building addresses is fitting the shop address. Hence I would have to add addr:housenumber=14-16 which is like above in a way a double housenumber-tagging. Here is the link to the example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=53.080139mlon=8.821026zoom=18layers=M Solutions could be also as above. --- Would you agree on double tagging house numbers (e.g. addind addr:housenumber for each shop) or should we define another tagging which would be used for those buildings only where the housenumber cannot be obtained ambiguously from the building way or entrance node? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Tobias cra_klinr...@gmx.de wrote: 1. Double house numbers: I want to tag the house number 101 of a shop. The building in which the romms of the shop are located has the house numbers 97,99,101,103,105,107,109. The house numbers of the building are either tagged on the entrances each or on the building-way (here: addr:housenumber=97,99,101,103,105,107,109) since the association to the entrances is unknown. Because there are several shops with the same house number, there would be several nodes or ways with the same house number. And only one is concerning the building/entrance. There are things I'm not sure I understand here. The example you show is a shopping mall, with the address tagged on the building as a set of housenumbers (as you say, 97, 99, 101...) But then you say all the stores share the same housenumber. I'm not sure I understand that, so maybe you an clarify it for me. Are you saying that all the stores are 97, 99, 101, 103, etc. or that one store, say the Garde bakery, is at 99, and the Schäfer's Backshop (you people sure do love your bakeries!) is at 103? If the stores have a housenumber- and you know that housenumber, include it in the store. If they're shared amongst all the stores equally, ie they all have 97, 99, 101, etc. then I'd tag the building. For those who would like to have an example from the real world - here it is: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.101067lon=8.787526zoom=18layers=M Very useful to have an example... Another thing is that renderers are double-rendering those house numbers (which is better than the opposite) and since some rooms are added to a building (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr), house numbers are there not only twice. If each shop had one housenumber, then I'd remove it from the building as I added it onto the shop. The shop has the address 14-16 which means that none of the building addresses is fitting the shop address. Hence I would have to add addr:housenumber=14-16 which is like above in a way a double housenumber-tagging. It's okay if both objects have the address tag, because both are correct. The building I live in is mixed use. Some of the building contains retail shops, and then there's a large apartment complex (which is where I live). I've tagged the shops with the same addr:housenumber as the apartment complex, because that's the truth. Google is confused about this and thinks I live in a store, but Nominatim simply asks if I mean the apartment complex, or the shops.[1] - Serge [1] I'm anthropomorphizing a bit here. What really happens is that Google returns a single value for the address, while Nomatim returns multiple values. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
On 18.07.2013 16:53, Serge Wroclawski wrote: On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Tobias cra_klinr...@gmx.de wrote: 1. Double house numbers: I want to tag the house number 101 of a shop. The building in which the romms of the shop are located has the house numbers 97,99,101,103,105,107,109. The house numbers of the building are either tagged on the entrances each or on the building-way (here: addr:housenumber=97,99,101,103,105,107,109) since the association to the entrances is unknown. Because there are several shops with the same house number, there would be several nodes or ways with the same house number. And only one is concerning the building/entrance. There are things I'm not sure I understand here. The example you show is a shopping mall, with the address tagged on the building as a set of housenumbers (as you say, 97, 99, 101...) But then you say all the stores share the same housenumber. Just a few shops share the same house number. There are actually more shops in the mall than there are shops at the OSM. And there are also shops in the level above. I'm not sure I understand that, so maybe you an clarify it for me. Are you saying that all the stores are 97, 99, 101, 103, etc. or that one store, say the Garde bakery, is at 99, and the Schäfer's Backshop (you people sure do love your bakeries!) is at 103? The second is right in this example. In fact every shop has an house number, but it is often not labeled at the shop's door. The postal service would also know where to deliver something, if you write for every shop inside the mall 97-103 instead of the exact house number. If the stores have a housenumber- and you know that housenumber, include it in the store. If they're shared amongst all the stores equally, ie they all have 97, 99, 101, etc. then I'd tag the building. It is kind of both. So in the end you will have the 101 on the building and the shop. For those who would like to have an example from the real world - here it is: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.101067lon=8.787526zoom=18layers=M Very useful to have an example... Another thing is that renderers are double-rendering those house numbers (which is better than the opposite) and since some rooms are added to a building (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr), house numbers are there not only twice. If each shop had one housenumber, then I'd remove it from the building as I added it onto the shop. Since this is not redundant, I will agree. I think you could obtain the address of an amenity within the building-way from the building way attributes. The shop has the address 14-16 which means that none of the building addresses is fitting the shop address. Hence I would have to add addr:housenumber=14-16 which is like above in a way a double housenumber-tagging. It's okay if both objects have the address tag, because both are correct. Since this is the common way - it would solve both problems in a way. But just since you do not remove the house numbers from the building way or the entrances, otherwise flats which are not tagged are identified in the google way (as you are writing below). The building I live in is mixed use. Some of the building contains retail shops, and then there's a large apartment complex (which is where I live). So there are two separate buildings? I've tagged the shops with the same addr:housenumber as the apartment complex, because that's the truth. So you are preferring to double-tag each house number. In your example I would say that you do not need to add house numbers to the shops because they can be obtained from the building way. Google is confused about this and thinks I live in a store, but Nominatim simply asks if I mean the apartment complex, or the shops.[1] Does Google use OSM Data at you place? At my place I guess google bought the right to use those data from the local municipal authority or somebody else. - Serge [1] I'm anthropomorphizing a bit here. What really happens is that Google returns a single value for the address, while Nomatim returns multiple values. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Thank you for your opinion and helpful advices so far! I am summing up a little bit (correct me, if I am going too far or am wrong): * Since you know the house number of a shop include it in the node/way of the shop. * In general it is allowed to have a house number twice or multiple times - since it is correct in the real world. * Two distinct buildings which share a house number are both tagged with the house number (necessarily true). * Since every shop/amenity of a building has a house number it can be removed from the entrance node or building way. Since all of that is common sense, I do not feel good about removing house numbers from the building ways or entrance
Re: [Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Tobias cra_klinr...@gmx.de wrote: It is kind of both. So in the end you will have the 101 on the building and the shop. That seems okay to me. We don't map to the renderer, so if it's both, it's both. If you feel strongly it should only be on one, let it be on the shop, and if two shops share the same housenumber, so be it, because it's true. The building I live in is mixed use. Some of the building contains retail shops, and then there's a large apartment complex (which is where I live). So there are two separate buildings? No, it's one building, but I live in New York city, and buildings here are often a mix of retail and residential, with retail on the bottom floors and residential on the top floors, and they share the same housenumber. I've tagged the shops with the same addr:housenumber as the apartment complex, because that's the truth. So you are preferring to double-tag each house number. In your example I would say that you do not need to add house numbers to the shops because they can be obtained from the building way. I don't like complex relations, either as a mapper or as a tool author. Working with them as a mapper is a pain, and writing tools that understand them is also hard. Google is confused about this and thinks I live in a store, but Nominatim simply asks if I mean the apartment complex, or the shops.[1] Does Google use OSM Data at you place? At my place I guess google bought the right to use those data from the local municipal authority or somebody else. Google does not use OSM data anywhere, but in the US (where I live), Google has shop data and when I put in my address, it geocodes it to a shop. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Double and misfitting house numbers
For the two buildings sharing one address: is there a higher level tag on the lines of landuse= that could have the address:housenumber= attached? Example use case: a corporate campus with multiple buildings, but a single postal address. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
