Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Sergio Manzi]

+1!

On 2019-03-07 19:02, Richard Welty wrote:
> i think OSM should stick to mapping what is legal. first responders
> frequentlhy have permission to ignore the restrictions that apply
> to normal motorists, but they usually have relevant policies that
> probably don't belong in OSM proper and which aren't knowable
> without interviewing the responders in question (and i've
> interviewed a bunch while developing requirements, i have some
> insight into common policies.)
>
> richard



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Richard Welty]

On 3/7/19 12:49 PM, OSMDoudou wrote:
> I would expect the police would first re-organize the scene to revert
> circulation.
> 
>  
> 
> If the house on fire is just a few meters in the opposite one-way
> direction, they might go directly, but technically they would break the
> law, if I read the articles correctly.
> 
>  
> 
> So, we should map what it authorized and not authorized under normal
> circumstances, otherwise we map no restriction at all (because the
> policy may always reorganize things in urgent situations).

i think OSM should stick to mapping what is legal. first responders
frequentlhy have permission to ignore the restrictions that apply
to normal motorists, but they usually have relevant policies that
probably don't belong in OSM proper and which aren't knowable
without interviewing the responders in question (and i've
interviewed a bunch while developing requirements, i have some
insight into common policies.)

richard
-- 
rwe...@averillpark.net
 Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
 OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
 Java - Web Applications - Search

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[OSMDoudou]

I would expect the police would first re-organize the scene to revert 
circulation.

 

If the house on fire is just a few meters in the opposite one-way direction, 
they might go directly, but technically they would break the law, if I read the 
articles correctly.

 

So, we should map what it authorized and not authorized under normal 
circumstances, otherwise we map no restriction at all (because the policy may 
always reorganize things in urgent situations).

 

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 14:23
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

 

 

 

Am Mi., 6. März 2019 um 14:16 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis mailto:marc.ge...@gmail.com> >:

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 11:52 AM OSMDoudou
<19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com 
<mailto:19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> > wrote:

If there was an explosion due to a gas leak and the road is blocked by
debris, I guess they can go in the opposite direction of a one-way
street as well.

 

 

I don't know the Belgian law, but in cases like these it is likely there will 
be police at the scene and will temporarily organize the traffic as required. 
Policemen everywhere (?) are higher ranked than road markings and street signs. 
;-)

 

If you need to infract some traffic regulations in order to save lifes, there 
might be exceptions or even obligations. 

 

Cheers,

Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Tony Shield]

Fire fighting foam needs to be mixed with water.

On 07/03/2019 14:24, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 7. Mar 2019, at 14:39, Richard Welty  wrote:

there are other examples. for example, the Chief of the Port
Henry department in upstate NY oversees a district that
is adjacent to Lake Champlaign, so you would think he has
a big enough water source. but the RR tracks running down his
side of the lake frequently carry huge trains loaded with
light crude oil. if one derails and catches fire, he can't
get to the lake.


AFAIK you should not try to extinguish burning petrol or oil with water, 
because it will distribute the fire over a larger area, but will not stop it. 
You could dig trenches or use different extinguishing substances.

Cheers, Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Mar 2019, at 14:39, Richard Welty  wrote:
> 
> there are other examples. for example, the Chief of the Port
> Henry department in upstate NY oversees a district that
> is adjacent to Lake Champlaign, so you would think he has
> a big enough water source. but the RR tracks running down his
> side of the lake frequently carry huge trains loaded with
> light crude oil. if one derails and catches fire, he can't
> get to the lake.


AFAIK you should not try to extinguish burning petrol or oil with water, 
because it will distribute the fire over a larger area, but will not stop it. 
You could dig trenches or use different extinguishing substances.

Cheers, Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Richard Welty]

On 3/6/19 5:17 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 16:29, Richard Welty  wrote:
>> i spent some time looking at a project to build OSM based
>> emergency maps. i concluded we needed to do layers of
>> information, some of which were appropriate to host in
>> OSM and others which were not. there would have been a
>> program to conflate the data to produce an OSMAnd or similar
>> data file that met the department needs but avoided
>> dumping inappropriate data into OSM.
> 
> Out of curiosity, if you don't mind/can share - what was not
> appropriate for OSM? Internal preferences or policies ("prefer to go
> down 1st rather than 2nd even though both look the same" - if only so
> drivers don't have to make that decision every time separately) or
> something else/more?

mostly, policy things like that. a lot of the things that FDs care
about are local policy rather than local regulations. if we stick to
the classical OSM theory that we map things that are observable
(which is something that is not fully honored of course) then
local policies are something a mapper on the ground can't see
unless they interview firefighters (which i've done a bit of.)

there are other examples. for example, the Chief of the Port
Henry department in upstate NY oversees a district that
is adjacent to Lake Champlaign, so you would think he has
a big enough water source. but the RR tracks running down his
side of the lake frequently carry huge trains loaded with
light crude oil. if one derails and catches fire, he can't
get to the lake. so he's been testing water flow of the streams
feeding the lake. that's the sort of data that's you can get
that benefits the FDs, but is not ground observable  in the
usual OSM manner.

a lot of rural FDs have designated landing sites for EMS
helicopters. they're not secrets, you can go to the local
FD and ask about them. but they are generally not marked, so
again, a mapper can't just walk up to them.

in the case of the Albany NY FD, there are streets downtown
that present challenges for some equipment. this matches
roughly with your example. it ends up being things like
if we want to get this piece of equipment to this building,
we need to go the wrong way on this street.

the thing i learned from all the interviews, though,
that is most interesting, is that the firefighers know
their districts, they don't need such aids if they're
responding at home. the value comes in when a company
crosses district borders to assist. this means that
a real tablet OSM app to support emergency services
should be a regional solution to support mutual
assistance calls.

richard
-- 
rwe...@averillpark.net
 Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
 OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
 Java - Web Applications - Search

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 16:29, Richard Welty  wrote:
> i spent some time looking at a project to build OSM based
> emergency maps. i concluded we needed to do layers of
> information, some of which were appropriate to host in
> OSM and others which were not. there would have been a
> program to conflate the data to produce an OSMAnd or similar
> data file that met the department needs but avoided
> dumping inappropriate data into OSM.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind/can share - what was not
appropriate for OSM? Internal preferences or policies ("prefer to go
down 1st rather than 2nd even though both look the same" - if only so
drivers don't have to make that decision every time separately) or
something else/more?

Thanks,
--Jarek

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Richard Welty]

> Am Mi., 6. März 2019 um 14:16 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis
> mailto:marc.ge...@gmail.com>>:
> 
> On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 11:52 AM OSMDoudou
> <19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com
> > wrote:
> 
> If there was an explosion due to a gas leak and the road is blocked by
> debris, I guess they can go in the opposite direction of a one-way
> street as well.
> 
> 
from talking to Albany FD firemen, they will go the wrong way if it
facilitates getting equipment to the fire. they prefer not to, but
sometimes they have to.

but there are sometimes other considerations. when FDs respond
out of their district as part of mutual assistance, they may
not know all the local rules.

i spent some time looking at a project to build OSM based
emergency maps. i concluded we needed to do layers of
information, some of which were appropriate to host in
OSM and others which were not. there would have been a
program to conflate the data to produce an OSMAnd or similar
data file that met the department needs but avoided
dumping inappropriate data into OSM.

richard

-- 
rwe...@averillpark.net
 Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
 OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
 Java - Web Applications - Search

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Paul Johnson]

There's quite a few bridges that are *definitely* access=no, emergency=no
in my area, but are *not* disused.  Might not be physically possible to get
a motor vehicle onto the span and definitely not legal to use the span at
all, but, not all people care about rules.

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 3:43 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
>
>
> Mar 2, 2019, 10:12 AM by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:
>
> Boys, this will vary by legal jurisdiction. These comments are valueless
> unless placed in context.
> Here in NL and as far as I know also in the UK, blue lights and sirens in
> your mirror are also no excuse for your own driving by the way, so you must
> not break any rules or otherwise drive dangerously to facilitate the
> emergency vehicle. Is that the same where you are?
> In NL police have a blanket exemption for all traffic rules in the
> execution of their duty. In the UK there is a fixed list of exemptions, and
> driving the wrong way down a one way street is not one of them, for
> example.
>
> In Poland it is accepted to (carefully) break traffic laws to make space
> for the emergency vehicle.
> Not sure what is the legal situation, though not making space for
> ambulance would be treated
> as a criminal stupidity - even if it requires doing something inconvenient
> or breaking traffic law.
>
> Examples that I encountered (and did) include temporary moving to and
> parking on edge
> of road, crossing red light (without moving across crossing), making
> otherwise forbidden
> right turn or U-turn, blocking road for nonemergency vehicles due to
> stopping at green light,
> ignoring markings that forbid changing lanes etc.
>
> All of it done with extra care and certainly without driving dangerously.
>
> AFAIK emergency vehicles are exempt from limitations of traffic law
> (including oneway roads,
> forbidden access roads, speed limits, red lights, forbidden turns)
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 6. März 2019 um 14:16 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis :

> On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 11:52 AM OSMDoudou
> <19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> If there was an explosion due to a gas leak and the road is blocked by
> debris, I guess they can go in the opposite direction of a one-way
> street as well.



I don't know the Belgian law, but in cases like these it is likely there
will be police at the scene and will temporarily organize the traffic as
required. Policemen everywhere (?) are higher ranked than road markings and
street signs. ;-)

If you need to infract some traffic regulations in order to save lifes,
there might be exceptions or even obligations.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 11:52 AM OSMDoudou
<19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> > AFAIK emergency vehicles are exempt from limitations of traffic law 
> > (including oneway roads, forbidden access roads, speed limits, red lights, 
> > forbidden turns)
>
> Belgian law requires they stop at traffic lights and exercise caution. Not 
> only exercise caution, but explicitly stop. Also, they can’t go opposite 
> direction of one-way streets, except motorways.
>

If there was an explosion due to a gas leak and the road is blocked by
debris, I guess they can go in the opposite direction of a one-way
street as well.

m.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[OSMDoudou]

> AFAIK emergency vehicles are exempt from limitations of traffic law 
> (including oneway roads, forbidden access roads, speed limits, red lights, 
> forbidden turns)

Belgian law requires they stop at traffic lights and exercise caution. Not only 
exercise caution, but explicitly stop. Also, they can’t go opposite direction 
of one-way streets, except motorways.

So, globally, yes, they have priority, but in the details, it’s more subtle.

French language references:
- https://leblogdumono.be/privileges-vehicules-prioritaires/
- 
http://www.policelocale.be/files/5318/files/downloads/A-propos/Prevention/VAC_2014-03.pdf
- https://www.matele.be/vehicules-prioritaires-meme-code-de-la-route-pour-tous

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Emergency vehicle country-specific law

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 2, 2019, 10:12 AM by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

> Boys, this will vary by legal jurisdiction. These comments are valueless 
> unless placed in context.
> Here in NL and as far as I know also in the UK,  blue lights and sirens in 
> your mirror are also no excuse for your own driving by the way, so you must 
> not break any rules or otherwise drive dangerously to facilitate the 
> emergency vehicle. Is that the same where you are?
> In NL police have a blanket exemption for all traffic rules in the execution 
> of their duty. In the UK there is a fixed list of exemptions, and driving the 
> wrong way down a one way street is not one of them, for example. 
>
In Poland it is accepted to (carefully) break traffic laws to make space for 
the emergency vehicle.
Not sure what is the legal situation, though not making space for ambulance 
would be treated
as a criminal stupidity - even if it requires doing something inconvenient or 
breaking traffic law.

Examples that I encountered (and did) include temporary moving to and parking 
on edge 
of road, crossing red light (without moving across crossing), making otherwise 
forbidden
right turn or U-turn, blocking road for nonemergency vehicles due to stopping 
at green light,
ignoring markings that forbid changing lanes etc.

All of it done with extra care and certainly without driving dangerously.

AFAIK emergency vehicles are exempt from limitations of traffic law (including 
oneway roads,
forbidden access roads, speed limits, red lights, forbidden turns)
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging