Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
Hello As a result of the discussion, I have changed the name from "donation in kind" to "donation of goods". "donation of goods" is easier to understand and is more specific for a place you can give physical things as donation. If there are no more comments, I will start voting in a few days. Best regards Markus Von: Martin Koppenhoefer<mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Februar 2020 12:00 An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation Am Mi., 19. Feb. 2020 um 23:50 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>>: My concern is still that it might be hard to translate "donation in kind" from English into some languages, and that people with limited English vocabulary might not understand the phrase. Automated translations by Google from "donation in kind" gets this: I got the same with deepl.com<http://deepl.com> (for French, German, Spanish, Dutch) German: "Sachspende" is a precise and accurate term (no wonder, the OP has translated this to English). Dutch: "donatie in natura" literally "donation in nature", from French? French: "don en nature" - literally "gift in nature/kind" which seem to be a phrase So "donation in kind" will work for western European languages (and Indonesian), though it would be nice if someone can check how it works in Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, etc. However, "donation of goods" works as well or better in most of these languages: "Donation of goods" translates to: = "sumbangan barang" (Indonesian) = "donación de bienes" (Spanish) = "don de biens" (French) = "donatie van goederen" (Dutch) = "Spende von Waren" (German) no, "Spende von Waren" is not an established term, it doesn't sound natural (but would probably be understood anyway), the perfect term is "Sachspende". My guess is that also for the other languages, particularly Roman languagues with their reference to "nature", the established term is that and not the second alternative. No idea about Indonesian obviously ;) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
Am Mi., 19. Feb. 2020 um 23:50 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > My concern is still that it might be hard to translate "donation in > kind" from English into some languages, and that people with limited > English vocabulary might not understand the phrase. > > Automated translations by Google from "donation in kind" gets this: > I got the same with deepl.com (for French, German, Spanish, Dutch) > German: "Sachspende" > is a precise and accurate term (no wonder, the OP has translated this to English). > > Dutch: "donatie in natura" literally "donation in nature", from French? > > French: "don en nature" - literally "gift in nature/kind" which seem > to be a phrase > > So "donation in kind" will work for western European languages (and > Indonesian), though it would be nice if someone can check how it works > in Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, etc. > > However, "donation of goods" works as well or better in most of these > languages: > > "Donation of goods" translates to: > = "sumbangan barang" (Indonesian) > = "donación de bienes" (Spanish) > = "don de biens" (French) > = "donatie van goederen" (Dutch) > = "Spende von Waren" (German) > no, "Spende von Waren" is not an established term, it doesn't sound natural (but would probably be understood anyway), the perfect term is "Sachspende". My guess is that also for the other languages, particularly Roman languagues with their reference to "nature", the established term is that and not the second alternative. No idea about Indonesian obviously ;) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
My concern is still that it might be hard to translate "donation in kind" from English into some languages, and that people with limited English vocabulary might not understand the phrase. Automated translations by Google from "donation in kind" gets this: Spanish: "donación en especie" - literally "donation in species/type/kind" which also appears to be used as a legal term about goods/services Indonesian: "sumbangan dalam bentuk barang" - "donation in the form of goods" - rather formal but intelligible, though services are not mentioned Those are the other languages that I know. Other languages: German: "Sachspende" Dutch: "donatie in natura" literally "donation in nature", from French? French: "don en nature" - literally "gift in nature/kind" which seem to be a phrase So "donation in kind" will work for western European languages (and Indonesian), though it would be nice if someone can check how it works in Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, etc. However, "donation of goods" works as well or better in most of these languages: "Donation of goods" translates to: = "sumbangan barang" (Indonesian) = "donación de bienes" (Spanish) = "don de biens" (French) = "donatie van goederen" (Dutch) = "Spende von Waren" (German) Those seem clearer to me; they are pretty much literal phrases that mean "donation of objects with value". Also, the phrase "donation of goods" in English is easier to understand, since it does not require interpreting an unusual use of the noun "kind", which usually means "class, sort, variety or type of something" in modern English, except in the phrase "in kind". - Joseph Eisenberg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
On 19/02/2020 09:11, Philip Barnes wrote: In kind is not the phrase we would use, we would call it a donation. A donation could be money (probably the most common type) or something else. If I wanted to distinguish the latter from the former, I might well choose to talk of a 'donation in kind'. It's not what one might call a 'fixed expression', such as one might expect to find in a dictionary, but it's an obvious collocation based on the documented meanings of 'donation' and 'in kind'. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
On Wednesday, 19 February 2020, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > OK, so "in-kind" is usually referring to a type of payment, in good or > services, rather than a type of donation. > > I'm sure the charity shops have to account the value of donated > second-hand clothes as "in-kind" donation income for tax purposes, but > that's not how an oridinary British person would talk about donating > some used books or toys, right? In kind is not the phrase we would use, we would call it a donation. Phil (trigpoint) > > Joseph Eisenberg > > > > On 2/19/20, Philip Barnes wrote: > > Hi Joseph > > In British English the phrase has the same meaning as you describe. > > > > The most common usage is in taxation terms when an employee receives a > > benefit that is not money. Examples can be a cars, housing. > > > > My reaction to this proposal was the same as yours, they are describing a > > charity shop. > > > > Phil (trigpoint) > > > > On Tuesday, 18 February 2020, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > >> While "in-kind donation" is an English phrase, it is not commonly used > >> and it also includes donations of services, rather than just goods. > >> > >> See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_kind "in kind refers to goods, > >> services, and transactions not involving money or not measured in > >> monetary terms." > >> > >> "In Kind: consisting of something (such as goods or commodities) other > >> than money" (Merriam-Webster) - also says "first known usage 1973". > >> > >> "In Kind: (of payment) given in the form of goods or services and not > >> money" or "If you do something in kind, you do the same thing to > >> someone that they have just done to you." (Cambridge) > >> > >> This might be difficult for mappers to understand, unless this phrase > >> is more common in British English than it appears (I'm an American > >> English speaker). > >> > >> I believe this proposal is focused on donations of things: physical > >> objects which have some value, also known as "goods," "items", > >> "stuff", "things", like those that you can commonly give away at a > >> second_hand shop or charity shop. > >> > >> If that is the case, a better tag might be something like > >> "goods_donation=", "second_hand_donation=", > >> "donation=second_hand_goods" or something with one of those other > >> common words for objects. > >> > >> But perhaps the key should include the type of things, since mostly > >> people will say "donate used clothes", "donate used books" or "donate > >> used furniture" rather than talking about all possible objects: > >> internet searches for those specific phrases find more results. > >> > >> - Joseph Eisenberg > >> > >> ___ > >> Tagging mailing list > >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > >> > > > > -- > > Sent from my Sailfish device > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Sent from my Sailfish device ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
OK, so "in-kind" is usually referring to a type of payment, in good or services, rather than a type of donation. I'm sure the charity shops have to account the value of donated second-hand clothes as "in-kind" donation income for tax purposes, but that's not how an oridinary British person would talk about donating some used books or toys, right? Joseph Eisenberg On 2/19/20, Philip Barnes wrote: > Hi Joseph > In British English the phrase has the same meaning as you describe. > > The most common usage is in taxation terms when an employee receives a > benefit that is not money. Examples can be a cars, housing. > > My reaction to this proposal was the same as yours, they are describing a > charity shop. > > Phil (trigpoint) > > On Tuesday, 18 February 2020, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: >> While "in-kind donation" is an English phrase, it is not commonly used >> and it also includes donations of services, rather than just goods. >> >> See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_kind "in kind refers to goods, >> services, and transactions not involving money or not measured in >> monetary terms." >> >> "In Kind: consisting of something (such as goods or commodities) other >> than money" (Merriam-Webster) - also says "first known usage 1973". >> >> "In Kind: (of payment) given in the form of goods or services and not >> money" or "If you do something in kind, you do the same thing to >> someone that they have just done to you." (Cambridge) >> >> This might be difficult for mappers to understand, unless this phrase >> is more common in British English than it appears (I'm an American >> English speaker). >> >> I believe this proposal is focused on donations of things: physical >> objects which have some value, also known as "goods," "items", >> "stuff", "things", like those that you can commonly give away at a >> second_hand shop or charity shop. >> >> If that is the case, a better tag might be something like >> "goods_donation=", "second_hand_donation=", >> "donation=second_hand_goods" or something with one of those other >> common words for objects. >> >> But perhaps the key should include the type of things, since mostly >> people will say "donate used clothes", "donate used books" or "donate >> used furniture" rather than talking about all possible objects: >> internet searches for those specific phrases find more results. >> >> - Joseph Eisenberg >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > > -- > Sent from my Sailfish device > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
Hi Joseph In British English the phrase has the same meaning as you describe. The most common usage is in taxation terms when an employee receives a benefit that is not money. Examples can be a cars, housing. My reaction to this proposal was the same as yours, they are describing a charity shop. Phil (trigpoint) On Tuesday, 18 February 2020, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > While "in-kind donation" is an English phrase, it is not commonly used > and it also includes donations of services, rather than just goods. > > See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_kind "in kind refers to goods, > services, and transactions not involving money or not measured in > monetary terms." > > "In Kind: consisting of something (such as goods or commodities) other > than money" (Merriam-Webster) - also says "first known usage 1973". > > "In Kind: (of payment) given in the form of goods or services and not > money" or "If you do something in kind, you do the same thing to > someone that they have just done to you." (Cambridge) > > This might be difficult for mappers to understand, unless this phrase > is more common in British English than it appears (I'm an American > English speaker). > > I believe this proposal is focused on donations of things: physical > objects which have some value, also known as "goods," "items", > "stuff", "things", like those that you can commonly give away at a > second_hand shop or charity shop. > > If that is the case, a better tag might be something like > "goods_donation=", "second_hand_donation=", > "donation=second_hand_goods" or something with one of those other > common words for objects. > > But perhaps the key should include the type of things, since mostly > people will say "donate used clothes", "donate used books" or "donate > used furniture" rather than talking about all possible objects: > internet searches for those specific phrases find more results. > > - Joseph Eisenberg > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Sent from my Sailfish device ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
While "in-kind donation" is an English phrase, it is not commonly used and it also includes donations of services, rather than just goods. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_kind "in kind refers to goods, services, and transactions not involving money or not measured in monetary terms." "In Kind: consisting of something (such as goods or commodities) other than money" (Merriam-Webster) - also says "first known usage 1973". "In Kind: (of payment) given in the form of goods or services and not money" or "If you do something in kind, you do the same thing to someone that they have just done to you." (Cambridge) This might be difficult for mappers to understand, unless this phrase is more common in British English than it appears (I'm an American English speaker). I believe this proposal is focused on donations of things: physical objects which have some value, also known as "goods," "items", "stuff", "things", like those that you can commonly give away at a second_hand shop or charity shop. If that is the case, a better tag might be something like "goods_donation=", "second_hand_donation=", "donation=second_hand_goods" or something with one of those other common words for objects. But perhaps the key should include the type of things, since mostly people will say "donate used clothes", "donate used books" or "donate used furniture" rather than talking about all possible objects: internet searches for those specific phrases find more results. - Joseph Eisenberg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
sent from a phone > Il giorno 16 feb 2020, alle ore 19:07, Jmapb via Tagging > ha scritto: > > It's similar to recycling but implies that the goods are reused rather than > used as raw materials. Personally I feel this is a bit of a continuum and I > don't see a problem with tagging in-kind donation sites as a type of > recycling. IMHO the terms are clear, and this would be reuse rather than recycling (or people would assume that the materials are reused and not the goods) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
On 2/16/2020 8:21 AM, Steve Doerr wrote: On 15/02/2020 16:56, Markus Peloso wrote: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/in-kind_donation For a place that takes in-kind donations. My immediate reaction is that this sounds like a very similar concept to 'give box', which was the subject of a recent RFC. Do we need two ways of tagging such similar things? The defining feature of the give box is that the public can freely access it for both giving and taking. With this feature (in-kind donation) the public can give goods but wouldn't expect to freely take things that others have given. It's similar to recycling but implies that the goods are reused rather than used as raw materials. Personally I feel this is a bit of a continuum and I don't see a problem with tagging in-kind donation sites as a type of recycling. On 2/16/2020 8:28 AM, Steve Doerr wrote: Anyway, it's a quirk of the English language that a phrase that normally consists of separate words is generally hyphenated when it is used 'attributively', i.e. as a quasi-adjective before a noun. So I might write, 'He made a donation in kind' but 'He made an in-kind donation'. A well-put description! The phrase is hyphenated when it functions as an adjective. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_compound#Hyphenated_compound_modifiers for some other examples and exceptions. J ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
On Sun, 2020-02-16 at 13:21 +, Steve Doerr wrote: > On 15/02/2020 16:56, Markus Peloso > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/in-kind_donation > > > > For > > a place that takes in-kind donations. > > > > Hi > > > > I describe a tag for shop and amenity that > > takes in-kind donations. I'm interested in your opinions. > > > > > > > > My immediate reaction is that this sounds like a very similar > concept to 'give box', which was the subject of a recent RFC. Do > we > need two ways of tagging such similar things? As a native speaker, it sounds a lot like a charity shop to me. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
sent from a phone > Il giorno 16 feb 2020, alle ore 14:23, Steve Doerr > ha scritto: > > My immediate reaction is that this sounds like a very similar concept to > 'give box', which was the subject of a recent RFC. Do we need two ways of > tagging such similar things? likely yes, because one is a shop (probably inside, opening hours, probably stand-alone), the other is an unattended place, possibly outside, or maybe inside another feature Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
On 15/02/2020 17:44, Hauke Stieler wrote: 1.) I'm not a native English spearker and personally never heard of "in-kind donations" before, so maybe a short description/definition might be needed/helpful. 'In kind' in relation to payments or similar means 'consisting of goods or services, not money'. 2.) According to [0] the convention for separation word in a key is the underscore. So I would change the key to "in_place_donations". You presumably mean "in_kind_donations"? Anyway, it's a quirk of the English language that a phrase that normally consists of separate words is generally hyphenated when it is used 'attributively', i.e. as a quasi-adjective before a noun. So I might write, 'He made a donation in kind' but 'He made an in-kind donation'. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
On 15/02/2020 16:56, Markus Peloso wrote: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/in-kind_donation For a place that takes in-kind donations. Hi I describe a tag for shop and amenity that takes in-kind donations. I'm interested in your opinions. My immediate reaction is that this sounds like a very similar concept to 'give box', which was the subject of a recent RFC. Do we need two ways of tagging such similar things? -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
Hi Hauke, Thank you for your support and contributions. Clarity and transparency are important to me. 1.) I'm also not a native English speaker. I have translated the German word "Sachspende". I improve the definition, add a link to a wikipedia article and add a section for translations and synonyms. 2.) Maybe the native English speakers could help with a good British English tag name. As a Swiss person from the German speaking part I can say that it is helpful to have “donation” as part of the tag. Because that is something we understand and if I search for a tag that describes what I’m looking for I will search for “donation”. 3.) I add a section with tagging examples. Best regards, Markus Von: Hauke Stieler<mailto:m...@hauke-stieler.de> Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Februar 2020 18:45 An: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation Hi, I have some feedback for you: 1.) I'm not a native English spearker and personally never heard of "in-kind donations" before, so maybe a short description/definition might be needed/helpful. 2.) According to [0] the convention for separation word in a key is the underscore. So I would change the key to "in_place_donations". 3.) Maybe give some examples for tagging. Something like: "A shop accepting X in-kind donation for organization Y would be tagged like this: ..." Hauke [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Syntactic_conventions_for_new_tags On 15.02.20 17:56, Markus Peloso wrote: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/in-kind_donation > > > > For a place that takes in-kind donations. > > > > Hi > > > > I describe a tag for shop and amenity that takes in-kind donations. I'm > interested in your opinions. > > > > Best regards, > > Markus > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
sent from a phone > Il giorno 15 feb 2020, alle ore 18:46, Hauke Stieler > ha scritto: > > 2.) > According to [0] the convention for separation word in a key is the > underscore. So I would change the key to "in_place_donations". right, the underscore replaces spaces between words in formalized tag keys and values. If the term is “in kind” then it becomes “in_kind” as a tag. When the term is “in-kind” then it remains like this. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
Hi, I have some feedback for you: 1.) I'm not a native English spearker and personally never heard of "in-kind donations" before, so maybe a short description/definition might be needed/helpful. 2.) According to [0] the convention for separation word in a key is the underscore. So I would change the key to "in_place_donations". 3.) Maybe give some examples for tagging. Something like: "A shop accepting X in-kind donation for organization Y would be tagged like this: ..." Hauke [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Syntactic_conventions_for_new_tags On 15.02.20 17:56, Markus Peloso wrote: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/in-kind_donation > > > > For a place that takes in-kind donations. > > > > Hi > > > > I describe a tag for shop and amenity that takes in-kind donations. I'm > interested in your opinions. > > > > Best regards, > > Markus > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/in-kind_donation For a place that takes in-kind donations. Hi I describe a tag for shop and amenity that takes in-kind donations. I'm interested in your opinions. Best regards, Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
