Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Philip Barnes]

The time pubs close is called "closing time" in the UK.

There used to be a fixed 23:00 closing time, I can remember a time where I 
lived where the city pubs closed at 22:30 and county pubs 23:00.

These days England and Wales have 24 hour licensing, meaning pubs can apply for 
a license for up to 24 hours. In reality very few have 24 hour licenses, most 
in my experience are licensed until midnight or 1am. Each pub can be different 
though. There is no area rule in my experience.

I must admit I was surprised when the world cup opening hours came up, I had no 
idea that 23:00 closing time still existed.

Phil (trigpoint)

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On 26/02/2014 10:57 Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 26.02.2014 10:21, schrieb Philip Barnes:



This is going off the tagging issue, but it is a bit scarry that you are 
casually talking about curfews, where outside places like North Korea do they 
exist?

A curfew to me, as a brit equals being arrested/shot for being on the street 
after a certain time.
oh, sorry, this may be a translation problem - my fault.
I used curfew (resp. take it from Martins post and looked it up in an online 
dictionary) in the meaning of legal "closing time" - the time, where all pubs 
(in an area) have to be closing by law - if they do not pay for a late 
concession/licence.
In German(y) this is called "Sperrstunde" - this term can be used in the same 
civil/opening meaning for pubs - or in military as you stated above .
Actually I do not know, if or where this is still in usage for pubs here - no 
need for that actually :) -, but I can remember, it was still in usage for pubs 
in my lifetime.

I thought England (or maybe Great Britain) is still using this for pubs.
At least, as this seems to be a problem, that causes the Prime Minister to 
intervene! ;-)
http://news.sky.com/story/1205719/world-cup-pub-opening-ban-overruled-by-pm

Georg


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Georg Feddern]

Am 26.02.2014 10:21, schrieb Philip Barnes:


This is going off the tagging issue, but it is a bit scarry that you 
are casually talking about curfews, where outside places like North 
Korea do they exist?



A curfew to me, as a brit equals being arrested/shot for being on the 
street after a certain time.




oh, sorry, this may be a translation problem - my fault.
I used curfew (resp. take it from Martins post and looked it up in an 
online dictionary) in the meaning of legal "closing time" - the time, 
where all pubs (in an area) have to be closing by law - if they do not 
pay for a late concession/licence.
In German(y) this is called "Sperrstunde" - this term can be used in the 
same civil/opening meaning for pubs - or in military as you stated above .
Actually I do not know, if or where this is still in usage for pubs here 
- no need for that actually :) -, but I can remember, it was still in 
usage for pubs in my lifetime.


I thought England (or maybe Great Britain) is still using this for pubs.
At least, as this seems to be a problem, that causes the Prime Minister 
to intervene! ;-)

http://news.sky.com/story/1205719/world-cup-pub-opening-ban-overruled-by-pm

Georg
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Philip Barnes]

Maybe, but speed limits/duty free allowances are things I would expect to need 
to know, and am probably unlikely to independently travel to a country that has 
a curfew.

This is going off the tagging issue, but it is a bit scarry that you are 
casually talking about curfews, where outside places like North Korea do they 
exist?

A curfew to me, as a brit equals being arrested/shot for being on the street 
after a certain time.

Phil (trigpoint)
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On 26/02/2014 8:51 Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 26.02.2014 09:19, schrieb Philip Barnes:

Surely you then need to define when curfew is, does it require a tag 
law=marshal? :)
I don't think so - that's an info you should know or get as soon as you need it 
- wherever you are.
Like the maximum speed without explicit signage - wherever you are.
Or the tax free amount of travel goods. :)




A more real world example, where hours vary, would be open sunrise to sunset, 
which is often used for rural car parks.

Yes - that's why opening_hours already support this. ;-)

Georg


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Georg Feddern]

Am 26.02.2014 09:19, schrieb Philip Barnes:


Surely you then need to define when curfew is, does it require a tag 
law=marshal? :)




I don't think so - that's an info you should know or get as soon as you 
need it - wherever you are.

Like the maximum speed without explicit signage - wherever you are.
Or the tax free amount of travel goods. :)



A more real world example, where hours vary, would be open sunrise to 
sunset, which is often used for rural car parks.





Yes - that's why opening_hours already support this. ;-)

Georg
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Philip Barnes]

Surely you then need to define when curfew is, does it require a tag 
law=marshal? :)

A more real world example, where hours vary, would be open sunrise to sunset, 
which is often used for rural car parks.

Phil (trigpoint)
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On 26/02/2014 7:45 Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 25.02.2014 16:35, schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider:
> On 25.02.2014 16:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> I don't know in this specific (british) context, but my guess is that
>> 12:00+ indicates (typically) until curfew, while "late" maybe has the
>> meaning "beyond curfew".
> All right. Interesting. If that is the case it might be better to write this
> explicitly (using fixed times and comments) because it is probably not 
> desirable
> to add this to the syntax.


well, for those who want to know "it's open late" it _is_ quite desirable.
And if there are no fixed times, it is still "open end" but with
different meaning.


The current syntax "+" does not diffentiate between "until curfew" and
"beyond curfew".
But this seems to be a desirable differentiation.
Why not extend the syntax with such quite clear definition?


E.g.
+ means open end until curfew
-late means open end beyond curfew


Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Georg Feddern]

Am 25.02.2014 16:35, schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider:

On 25.02.2014 16:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I don't know in this specific (british) context, but my guess is that
12:00+ indicates (typically) until curfew, while "late" maybe has the
meaning "beyond curfew".

All right. Interesting. If that is the case it might be better to write this
explicitly (using fixed times and comments) because it is probably not desirable
to add this to the syntax.


well, for those who want to know "it's open late" it _is_ quite desirable.
And if there are no fixed times, it is still "open end" but with 
different meaning.


The current syntax "+" does not diffentiate between "until curfew" and 
"beyond curfew".

But this seems to be a desirable differentiation.
Why not extend the syntax with such quite clear definition?

E.g.
+ means open end until curfew
-late means open end beyond curfew

Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 16:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2014-02-25 16:14 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :
> 
>> Correct. The nice thing is that we can get both things and I thought I
>> would get
>> to there with my change. I still think that the change was not so bad but
>> I was
>> not aware of the special meaning. What is the reason why open end does not
>> apply
>> in this case? Is it the not long enough time range which is indicated by
>> '-late'?
>>
> 
> I don't know in this specific (british) context, but my guess is that
> 12:00+ indicates (typically) until curfew, while "late" maybe has the
> meaning "beyond curfew".
All right. Interesting. If that is the case it might be better to write this
explicitly (using fixed times and comments) because it is probably not desirable
to add this to the syntax.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-02-25 16:14 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :

> Correct. The nice thing is that we can get both things and I thought I
> would get
> to there with my change. I still think that the change was not so bad but
> I was
> not aware of the special meaning. What is the reason why open end does not
> apply
> in this case? Is it the not long enough time range which is indicated by
> '-late'?
>

I don't know in this specific (british) context, but my guess is that
12:00+ indicates (typically) until curfew, while "late" maybe has the
meaning "beyond curfew".

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 16:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2014-02-25 14:32 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :
> 
>> The problem with
>> "12:00-late" is that it is not valid syntax and thous can not evaluated by
>> software. The "12:00+" is evaluated by opening_hours.js as "12:00-24:00"
>> which
>> is probably not long enough in this case. But it does come somewhere close
>> to
>> reality.
>>
> 
> 
> if we have to decide between formally wrong data which is understandable by
> humans and data that is formally correct but doesn't correspond to the
> actual facts, we should decide to keep the former (at this time). A formal
> error is automatically detectable, so it will sooner or later be corrected,
> but wrong facts are very hard to find, especially if they look correct.
Correct. The nice thing is that we can get both things and I thought I would get
to there with my change. I still think that the change was not so bad but I was
not aware of the special meaning. What is the reason why open end does not apply
in this case? Is it the not long enough time range which is indicated by 
'-late'?

> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-02-25 14:32 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :

> The problem with
> "12:00-late" is that it is not valid syntax and thous can not evaluated by
> software. The "12:00+" is evaluated by opening_hours.js as "12:00-24:00"
> which
> is probably not long enough in this case. But it does come somewhere close
> to
> reality.
>


if we have to decide between formally wrong data which is understandable by
humans and data that is formally correct but doesn't correspond to the
actual facts, we should decide to keep the former (at this time). A formal
error is automatically detectable, so it will sooner or later be corrected,
but wrong facts are very hard to find, especially if they look correct.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-02-25 10:21 GMT+01:00 SomeoneElse :

> We certainly shouldn't be mechanically changing opening_hours tags that
> don't quite correspond to those rules when we don't quite understand the
> cultural context of the original tags.



+1
cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 09:44, Peter Wendorff wrote:
> Hi,
> even if there are examples for such a thing - is it useful?
> For the breakfast example: It's useful to know that breakfast is served
> up to 11 if I'm there at 10 to 11 and have to decide to take a breakfast
> buffet or not; but beforehand I would have to know when it starts serving.
Yes. But the question is what to do if the starting time is not specified or
varies. That there will be some doubt is inevitable.

> For a bar that's advertising to be opened bis 5 in the morning, how
> should software or even a human being decide if that's starting from
> midnight (as it's a bar opening when others close) or starting from 5 in
> the afternoon, or if it's open the whole day, too (starting e.g. at 11:00)?
At least this can be ensured. The opening_hours syntax always uses the 24 hours
time format.

> So while an open-end is valuable, especially with a minimum-opening-time
> (open 17:00-22:00+) the opposite isn't useful in my opinion.
> 
> regards
> Peter
> 
> Am 24.02.2014 22:09, schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider:
>> Good evening
>>
>> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It is
>> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing 
>> time).
>> So I created a short proposal:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>
>> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.
>>
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

I guess we can collect some examples on the proposal page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until#Real_world_examples


On 24.02.2014 23:37, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> One example would be a restaurant near my house, which has a sign painted on 
> the building, advertising breakfast hours as "  - 11:00 AM".  There is a 
> blank space on the sign where you would expect a starting time. I suspect 
> that this means that the opening time varies, but breakfast always stops 
> being served at 11 AM.  I will see if I can take a picture of it.
> 
> On February 24, 2014 3:13:44 PM CST, Serge Wroclawski  
> wrote:
>> I've never seen a business have a closing time specified without an
>> opening
>> time. Can you provide some examples?
>>
>>
>> - Serge
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Good evening
>>>
>>> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours
>> syntax. It
>>> is
>>> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a
>> closing
>>> time).
>>> So I created a short proposal:
>>>
>>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>>
>>> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Live long and prosper
>>> Robin Schneider
>>>
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>>
>>
>> 
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 25.02.2014 10:21, SomeoneElse wrote:
> Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:
>> So I created a short proposal:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>
> In a related point, we need to be careful that when trying to translate 
> all of the data in opening_hours into something that a computer can 
> understand that information isn't lost.  "Breakfast until 11am" usually 
> makes perfect sense to a human in the context of the rest of the tags on 
> an item.
You are right. That is the point of my proposal. The syntax should be as close
to the real world as possible. So my question is if we should just invent a
starting time (which should then be the earliest possible opening time) and
specify a comment (state unknown) or if the software which evaluates the
opening_hours should do that. I am really not sure about that and would go
either way but I want to discuss this first.

In some cases you can complete the opening_hours for the kitchen with the
opening_hours of the facility. I had this case yesterday in which the opening
hours where specified completely but the starting time for the kitchen was
basically a reference to the starting time of the facility.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/700957664

In this case the thing I wrote here
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:opening_hours#very_complex_opening_hours)
might come in handy to still prevent the original meaning.

> As another example, this pub node:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1479235861/history
> 
> had opening hours of "12:00-late" changed to "12:00+".  In context (a 
> pub in an old English town centre) "12:00-late" carries meaning that 
> "12:00+" does not, despite it confirming to some rules artificially 
> imposed by https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js .
Well I guess that I am responsible for both of these issues. The problem with
"12:00-late" is that it is not valid syntax and thous can not evaluated by
software. The "12:00+" is evaluated by opening_hours.js as "12:00-24:00" which
is probably not long enough in this case. But it does come somewhere close to
reality. I suggest using a comment to change the meaning of this open end or
suggesting to extend the interpretation of open end.

I saw this construct multiple times and added an input tolerance into
opening_hours.js so that this value does not result in an error but still warns
that this does not completely follow the syntax (but it is kind of clear what is
meant).
The warning would be: "12:00-late <--- (You can use notation "+" for "-late".
You might want to express open end which can be specified as "12:00+" for 
example.)"
which gives a hint to the mapper.

> We certainly shouldn't be mechanically changing opening_hours tags that 
> don't quite correspond to those rules when we don't quite understand the 
> cultural context of the original tags.
You are right. I did manually look at this node and came to the conclusion that
open end would be appropriate. If that is not quite the case then it can still
be improved (as suggested above).

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[SomeoneElse]

Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:

So I created a short proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until

In a related point, we need to be careful that when trying to translate 
all of the data in opening_hours into something that a computer can 
understand that information isn't lost.  "Breakfast until 11am" usually 
makes perfect sense to a human in the context of the rest of the tags on 
an item.


As another example, this pub node:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1479235861/history

had opening hours of "12:00-late" changed to "12:00+".  In context (a 
pub in an old English town centre) "12:00-late" carries meaning that 
"12:00+" does not, despite it confirming to some rules artificially 
imposed by https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js .


We certainly shouldn't be mechanically changing opening_hours tags that 
don't quite correspond to those rules when we don't quite understand the 
cultural context of the original tags.


Cheers,

Andy




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Peter Wendorff]

Hi,
even if there are examples for such a thing - is it useful?
For the breakfast example: It's useful to know that breakfast is served
up to 11 if I'm there at 10 to 11 and have to decide to take a breakfast
buffet or not; but beforehand I would have to know when it starts serving.

For a bar that's advertising to be opened bis 5 in the morning, how
should software or even a human being decide if that's starting from
midnight (as it's a bar opening when others close) or starting from 5 in
the afternoon, or if it's open the whole day, too (starting e.g. at 11:00)?

So while an open-end is valuable, especially with a minimum-opening-time
(open 17:00-22:00+) the opposite isn't useful in my opinion.

regards
Peter

Am 24.02.2014 22:09, schrieb Robin `ypid` Schneider:
> Good evening
> 
> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It is
> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing 
> time).
> So I created a short proposal:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
> 
> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.
> 


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[John F. Eldredge]

One example would be a restaurant near my house, which has a sign painted on 
the building, advertising breakfast hours as "  - 11:00 AM".  There is a blank 
space on the sign where you would expect a starting time. I suspect that this 
means that the opening time varies, but breakfast always stops being served at 
11 AM.  I will see if I can take a picture of it.

On February 24, 2014 3:13:44 PM CST, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
>I've never seen a business have a closing time specified without an
>opening
>time. Can you provide some examples?
>
>
>- Serge
>
>
>On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider
>wrote:
>
>> Good evening
>>
>> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours
>syntax. It
>> is
>> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a
>closing
>> time).
>> So I created a short proposal:
>>
>>
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>
>> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.
>>
>> --
>> Live long and prosper
>> Robin Schneider
>>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-02-24 22:13 GMT+01:00 Serge Wroclawski :

> I've never seen a business have a closing time specified without an
> opening time. Can you provide some examples?
>
>

I agree the opposite seems much more frequent (opening time specified, open
end until there are no guests any more)

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

On 24.02.2014 22:13, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
> I've never seen a business have a closing time specified without an opening
> time. Can you provide some examples?
I can remember one facility (I think it was an restaurant) which used such
opening hours on there homepage. Examples will follow.

> 
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:
> 
>> Good evening
>>
>> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It
>> is
>> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing
>> time).
>> So I created a short proposal:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>>
>> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Serge Wroclawski]

I've never seen a business have a closing time specified without an opening
time. Can you provide some examples?


- Serge


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:

> Good evening
>
> I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It
> is
> about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing
> time).
> So I created a short proposal:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until
>
> Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.
>
> --
> Live long and prosper
> Robin Schneider
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours open until

[Robin `ypid` Schneider]

Good evening

I would like to discuss one little detail in the opening_hours syntax. It is
about facilities which do not have a open time specified (only a closing time).
So I created a short proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_open_until

Feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion page.

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