Re: [Tagging] Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
I personally like when OSM definitions are linked to other references, especially a well-known source like wikipedia. From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/social+service: social service n. 1. Organized efforts to advance human welfare; social work. 2. Services, such as free school lunches, provided by a government for its disadvantaged citizens. Often used in the plural. or Merriam Webster, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/social%20service : an activity designed to promote social well-being; specifically : organized philanthropic assistance (as of the disabled or disadvantaged) I can add these references to the tag page if people consider them better form. As for removing the daycare reference in social_facility, I agree that replacing it with a link to an approved childcare feature makes sense. There are service organizations that focus on children and I wouldn't be surprised if some provided daycare, but this is such a specific service that I think a node is better described by combining tags. So a social facility that provided childcare service could use: amenity=childcare social_facility:for=child age=2-17 operator=ABC Kids -- Sean On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 04:59, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I perceive as well some reference to class struggle, especially in the introduction of the linked wikipedia article: pursuit of social welfare, social change and social justice. I suggest to remove this reference, as it is not even helpful in its generic definition, and social change, social justice and to some point also welfare are not about what it is, but why it is (so it belongs to philosophy / politics / economy and not to OSM). It is also not helpful to have the basic definition (A social facility is any place where social services, as defined here, are conducted:) linked to a dynamic page ;-), and I think in OSM we could well live without the as defined here part. Given all this I agree that there is not yet a suggested value, but there is daycare as an example: social_facility:for=child e.g. daycare center for children, i.e. following the logics of the cited page there would be social_facility=daycare, social_facility:for=child to be amended. Following the logics of your proposal instead, there could be an amendment to your proposal saying that daycare should be removed from the example section of social_facility:for (or a link to your tag added. Removing daycare from social_facility would not be a problem because there is not yet a single object with this tag in the database (according to taginfo), cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - voting - childcare
i changed the main key to service_times, but i kept the subkey. otherwise it would be problematic in case someone want to tag the office hours separately. flaimo Message: 6 Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 01:15:26 +0200 From: M?rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - voting - childcare Message-ID: BANLkTi=ppc1iyporccpzk5vor-yvjre...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2011/5/11 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare#Voting I don't see why there should be service_hours:childcare. Can't we reuse service_times? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service_times ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - voting - childcare
2011/5/12 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: i changed the main key to service_times, but i kept the subkey. otherwise it would be problematic in case someone want to tag the office hours separately. IMHO the key service_times refers to the feature, which is children daycare in this case. There is no need to namespace this tag. If you namespace it, you make it more difficult You could have office_hours for the office hours. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
2011/5/12 Sean Horgan seanhor...@gmail.com: I personally like when OSM definitions are linked to other references, especially a well-known source like wikipedia. at least then link to a specific version of an article. From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/social+service: social service n. 1. Organized efforts to advance human welfare; social work. 2. Services, such as free school lunches, provided by a government for its disadvantaged citizens. Often used in the plural. or Merriam Webster, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/social%20service : an activity designed to promote social well-being; specifically : organized philanthropic assistance (as of the disabled or disadvantaged) I can add these references to the tag page if people consider them better form. -1, please copy the definition. Do not link them from external sites. To the content of dictionaries you cited: the exact meaning of social is generally tainted by political / philosophical ideologies/point of view as well as cultural background. I wouldn't dig too much into the details. As for removing the daycare reference in social_facility, I agree that replacing it with a link to an approved childcare feature makes sense. IMHO no link but a short description in the OSM wiki. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - voting - childcare
there was a lot of discussion going on over the last two days for this proposal, but still hardly anyone voted. i think it would be a good idea if everyone who took part in the discussion would vote, so that we at least get an impression on the tendency for or against the childcare value. currently there are only five (positive) votes which isn't a lot. i could also live with the social_facility value in case it gets declined, but i would like to see a meaningful result in the votes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare#Voting flaimo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - voting - childcare
2011/5/11 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare#Voting I don't see why there should be service_hours:childcare. Can't we reuse service_times? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service_times cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
2011/5/10 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: Further, i too consider the social facility tags to negative. Besides that, i couldn't see a social_facility=* value that would fit. the or=child part references to an target audience, which would correspond more to the age tag of my proposal and not the amenity=childcare. Actually I perceive as well some reference to class struggle, especially in the introduction of the linked wikipedia article: pursuit of social welfare, social change and social justice. I suggest to remove this reference, as it is not even helpful in its generic definition, and social change, social justice and to some point also welfare are not about what it is, but why it is (so it belongs to philosophy / politics / economy and not to OSM). It is also not helpful to have the basic definition (A social facility is any place where social services, as defined here, are conducted:) linked to a dynamic page ;-), and I think in OSM we could well live without the as defined here part. Given all this I agree that there is not yet a suggested value, but there is daycare as an example: social_facility:for=child e.g. daycare center for children, i.e. following the logics of the cited page there would be social_facility=daycare, social_facility:for=child to be amended. Following the logics of your proposal instead, there could be an amendment to your proposal saying that daycare should be removed from the example section of social_facility:for (or a link to your tag added. Removing daycare from social_facility would not be a problem because there is not yet a single object with this tag in the database (according to taginfo), cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
2011/5/8 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: no further comments over the last 1 1/2 weeks, so i'll start the voting phase: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare sorry for writing late, I think there are some problems. E.g. age. if you tagged a feature with amenity=childcare age=4 it would not be completely clear, that age is the age of the children. I'd also suggest to change the underscores in colons in cases where you have hierarchical tags like operator:type The way you propose to use opening_hours is IMHO not in line with the wiki. You suggest to use open opening_hours on the facility even if it is closed but the office is open. I'd do it differently (opening_hours to indicate the times of the facility and office_hours or something similar, or a distinct office object with it's own opening_hours) The biggest issue I see is that this feature seems already be covered by the social facility feature: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Social_facility Have a look at the subkey social_facility:for=child e.g. daycare center for children cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 12:14 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/5/8 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: The biggest issue I see is that this feature seems already be covered by the social facility feature: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Social_facility Have a look at the subkey social_facility:for=child e.g. daycare center for children That page has a not so nice undertone of help the poor, so I'm reluctant to tag my amenity=kindergarten as a social_facility even though it really is a social facility. So maybe I should help to expand it to be more about social and less about social outreach, but I would still tag most daycares as kindergarten: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dkindergarten Obviously it's hard to describe daycare since it varies so much from country to country, but the proposals don't seem to touch many of the aspects brought up when you asked for comments the last time. http://www.mail-archive.com/tagging@openstreetmap.org/msg07353.html open_hours is not even usefull to map around here since it can mean so many different things. amenity=kindergarten religion=scientology age=1-6 /Erik. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
I notice the suggested rendering is similar to schools. Don't know about other areas, but in the US, many childcare centers are run out of private homes, so that rendering might seem a little strange. Maybe in that case a node is a better choice. Also, if you really want to get into the details of capacity and age, in the US there are sometimes limits on # of children in an age range, depending on the ratio of staff to children. Again, don't know how this might differ elsewhere. On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 7:02 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 12:14 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/5/8 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: The biggest issue I see is that this feature seems already be covered by the social facility feature: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Social_facility Have a look at the subkey social_facility:for=child e.g. daycare center for children That page has a not so nice undertone of help the poor, so I'm reluctant to tag my amenity=kindergarten as a social_facility even though it really is a social facility. So maybe I should help to expand it to be more about social and less about social outreach, but I would still tag most daycares as kindergarten: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dkindergarten Obviously it's hard to describe daycare since it varies so much from country to country, but the proposals don't seem to touch many of the aspects brought up when you asked for comments the last time. http://www.mail-archive.com/tagging@openstreetmap.org/msg07353.html open_hours is not even usefull to map around here since it can mean so many different things. amenity=kindergarten religion=scientology age=1-6 /Erik. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
2011/5/9 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: I notice the suggested rendering is similar to schools. Don't know about other areas, but in the US, many childcare centers are run out of private homes, so that rendering might seem a little strange. Maybe in that case a node is a better choice. The question whether a node or an area is more appropriate to represent a feature should be seen independently of a certain render style. The rendering suggestion in feature proposals is only a suggestion and has no influence on the actual rendering in maps (actually IMHO rendering suggestions in feature descriptions are somehow superfluous and can just as well be omitted). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 11:36 -0500, Brad Neuhauser wrote: I notice the suggested rendering is similar to schools. Don't know about other areas, but in the US, many childcare centers are run out of private homes, so that rendering might seem a little strange. Maybe in that case a node is a better choice. Within my suburb there are both options, some home-based small childcare centres but also some that are setup with their own building, playground and fenced off area. I think the use of both node and way/area should be allowed for this tag, some are too small to map as an area and some are too big to simply map as a node. David On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 7:02 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 12:14 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/5/8 Flaimo fla...@gmail.com: The biggest issue I see is that this feature seems already be covered by the social facility feature: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Social_facility Have a look at the subkey social_facility:for=child e.g. daycare center for children That page has a not so nice undertone of help the poor, so I'm reluctant to tag my amenity=kindergarten as a social_facility even though it really is a social facility. So maybe I should help to expand it to be more about social and less about social outreach, but I would still tag most daycares as kindergarten: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dkindergarten Obviously it's hard to describe daycare since it varies so much from country to country, but the proposals don't seem to touch many of the aspects brought up when you asked for comments the last time. http://www.mail-archive.com/tagging@openstreetmap.org/msg07353.html open_hours is not even usefull to map around here since it can mean so many different things. amenity=kindergarten religion=scientology age=1-6 /Erik. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - childcare
no further comments over the last 1 1/2 weeks, so i'll start the voting phase: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare btw my other proposal could still need some votes: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/recycling_type flaimo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
