Re: [Tagging] Fruit stands and shops selling fresh fruits?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10 Aug 2019, 02:48 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:

> Is there a more specific tag that should be recommended for a shop
> which specializes in fruit?
>
There are quite similar objects in Poland - stalls on marketplace where people 
are selling
seasonal fruits and vegetables.

I use simply shop=greengrocer with usual tags like opening_hours + 
street_vendor=yes
(street_vendor=yes docs are at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes 

)

I also used shop=greengrocer for shop selling solely fruits,
or even solely single fruit/vegetable

additional subtag like it is done for shop=clothes clothes=* is IMHO preferable 
to new shop values

It is mostly for practical reasons - shop=potatoes is not going to be really 
supported,
shop=greengrocer ***=potatoes will be actually supported, satisfies desire for 
deatils
and allows to use this data by data consumers that are actually interested in 
such detail

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Re: [Tagging] Fruit stands and shops selling fresh fruits?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2019, at 14:23, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> except
> for the problem that vending=* doesn't really mean that in OSM but is used in
> conjunction with vending machines.


vending means exactly this in OpenStreetMap: what a thing sells. It is mainly 
used with vending machines to say what they sell, but it could be used for 
other features as well. 

In this case  of a shop selling fruit I would also have thought of greengrocer, 
although shop=fruit for fruit only shops seems suitable as well (despite the 
low usage). Against the greengrocer tag stands that it requires vegetables to 
be sold as well as fruits.

At least this seems to fit the osm definition, in natural language a shop might 
require a building? These would be called booth or stand?
Our wiki says for shop: “A place selling retail products or services.” and in 
the building related paragraph: “Most shops are located within a building” 
(which suggests some are not), so a building may not be a strict requirement?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shops

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop

(the information is split across 2 pages for the shop key), as well meaning as 
this may be intended, I would prefer to reduce this back to a single page.


There are also ~350 shop=street_vendor which would theoretically fit for your 
situation, although I would not use the tag (too generic to be useful (e.g. 
does it sell bags, fruit or cellphone covers?), suffering from the same 
semantic contradiction that a shop requires normally a building, and the part 
of the definition saying it can be in a covered market hall also seems strange, 
as this isn’t a street vendor).



> 
> Oh, and we should really have used product=* rather than produce=* to resolve
> that ambiguity, but we didn't.  Mainly, I suspect, because in English 
> "produce" refers
> to things that are grown and "product" refers to things that are 
> made/extracted.


we do use “produce” for agricultural produce and “product” in conjunction with 
man made works and similar.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/produce#values
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/product

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Re: [Tagging] Fruit stands and shops selling fresh fruits?

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 12:38, marc marc  wrote:

> Le 10.08.19 à 07:24, Warin a écrit :
> > the key produce=* could be used to detail what was sold
>
> a shop produce nothing. better to use vending=*
>

In English "produce" as a verb has a different meaning to "produce" as a
noun (and
are pronounced differently).  A shop selling stuff produced by a farm sells
farm
produce.  So yes, vending=* would be better as it removes the ambiguity,
except
for the problem that vending=* doesn't really mean that in OSM but is used
in
conjunction with vending machines.

Oh, and we should really have used product=* rather than produce=* to
resolve
that ambiguity, but we didn't.  Mainly, I suspect, because in English
"produce" refers
to things that are grown and "product" refers to things that are
made/extracted.
Don't ask me why that is, but nobody would talk of farm product or factory
produce.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Fruit stands and shops selling fresh fruits?

[marc marc]

Le 10.08.19 à 07:24, Warin a écrit :
> the key produce=* could be used to detail what was sold

a shop produce nothing. better to use vending=*

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Re: [Tagging] Fruit stands and shops selling fresh fruits?

[Warin]

On 10/08/19 10:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Java, Indonesia has many small, open-front shops and roadside stalls
which sell a variety of local fruits, found in most cities and
neighborhoods. These are called a "toko buah" = "fruit shop".

shop=farm doesn't seem appropriate, since these should be located at
the farm and have produce mainly from one farm. These fruit shops are
found in towns and cities. They are not operated directly by farmers,
but they buy fruits in the large farmers market or receive deliveries
from several farms, so they can sell several varieties of fruit in
season.

The Indonesian Tagging Guidelines
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Daily_Needs)
recommend tagging these shops as shop=greengrocer - however a
greengrocer in England usually sells vegetables and other perishable
foods, as well as fruits. There are a few shops like this in
Indonesia, but in Java it's much more common to find a fruit-specific
shop than a shop that sells vegetables and fruits.

Is there a more specific tag that should be recommended for a shop
which specializes in fruit?

I see just 60 uses of shop=fruit in taginfo
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/shop=fruit, and 24 shop=fruits



I'd say 'a fruit shop' in normal speech, so shop=fruit?
If wanted, the key produce=* could be used to detail what was sold, even add 
conditional for seasonal variations.

Overpass turbo shows a wide distribution. I'd go a head and use it, and add a 
wiki page (with no declared status).



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[Tagging] Fruit stands and shops selling fresh fruits?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Java, Indonesia has many small, open-front shops and roadside stalls
which sell a variety of local fruits, found in most cities and
neighborhoods. These are called a "toko buah" = "fruit shop".

shop=farm doesn't seem appropriate, since these should be located at
the farm and have produce mainly from one farm. These fruit shops are
found in towns and cities. They are not operated directly by farmers,
but they buy fruits in the large farmers market or receive deliveries
from several farms, so they can sell several varieties of fruit in
season.

The Indonesian Tagging Guidelines
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Daily_Needs)
recommend tagging these shops as shop=greengrocer - however a
greengrocer in England usually sells vegetables and other perishable
foods, as well as fruits. There are a few shops like this in
Indonesia, but in Java it's much more common to find a fruit-specific
shop than a shop that sells vegetables and fruits.

Is there a more specific tag that should be recommended for a shop
which specializes in fruit?

I see just 60 uses of shop=fruit in taginfo
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/shop=fruit, and 24 shop=fruits

-Joseph

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