Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
2011/2/27 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: Again, I'm fine with not creating another tag (like driveway=pipestem), but the next best thing I can think of is to do something like operator=123-129 Suburb Street (as that's what's shown on signs, ugly for parsing), or perhaps I could create a pipestem relation showing which houses are responsible for the road :). I think that if these roads have characteristics/properties that distinct them from the rest of the highways (like maintenance, maybe access, ownership) which all roads of this type (pipestem) share in your area, IMHO you suggested the better solution by proposing a new tag driveway=pipeway. Operator is not suitable (it is always different and therefor you couldn't evaluate it the same way) and relations seem just another way to tag the same thing in a more complex way (on the other hand adding different detail, so it might be an additional way). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
2011/2/27 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: tag driveway=pipeway. sorry, of course this should read pipestem ;-) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
On a side-note, this meaning of 'pipestem' seems to be completely
unknown to the Oxford English Dictionary, despite the fact that they
revised this whole section of the alphabet ('pi-mesic' to 'pleating')
for an update released in June 2006. Perhaps someone should tell them
about it?
--
Steve
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[Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
How do we differentiate between driveways and pipestems? Pipestems are common in planned residential developments (at least in the US), where a number of houses are located off a pipestem, each with their own driveways. Maintenance of the pipestem is the responsibility of all the homeowners off that particular pipestem. Pipestems aren't named roads, so highway=residential doesn't make since, but I'm not sure if I should use service=driveway both for the pipestems and for the individual driveways. I suppose I could use operator=*, but since it's just a collection of homeowners that typically don't have a name, I'm not sure what to put here. I don't want to invent a new tag if I don't have to, but I'm not sure how to use existing tags to make this distinction. Perhaps I could use highway=service, service=driveway, and driveway=pipestem? Suggestions are welcome! Thanks, -Josh [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:service%3Ddriveway#Pipestems ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
I'm not clear why this is all that different from an alley which might have garages along it. Creating a new tag here seems like overkill to me. Couldn't you just use one of the service values (driveway, alley, or just keep it at service), and add access tag, operator, etc.? I know taxonomies are fun, but don't see how pipestem adds much information. Brad On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:52 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: How do we differentiate between driveways and pipestems? Pipestems are common in planned residential developments (at least in the US), where a number of houses are located off a pipestem, each with their own driveways. Maintenance of the pipestem is the responsibility of all the homeowners off that particular pipestem. Pipestems aren't named roads, so highway=residential doesn't make since, but I'm not sure if I should use service=driveway both for the pipestems and for the individual driveways. I suppose I could use operator=*, but since it's just a collection of homeowners that typically don't have a name, I'm not sure what to put here. I don't want to invent a new tag if I don't have to, but I'm not sure how to use existing tags to make this distinction. Perhaps I could use highway=service, service=driveway, and driveway=pipestem? Suggestions are welcome! Thanks, -Josh [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:service%3Ddriveway#Pipestems ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
I need some way to differentiate between pipestems and driveways, because the distinction between the two are very important for my community. Operator and access tags are useful, but they won't help me differentiate between the two. I'm not proposing to create a new tag that becomes standard. If I have to I'll just use my_namespace=pipestem, but I'd rather use something that could possibly be reused by someone else. Unless someone suggests otherwise, I'll use highway=service, service=driveway, and driveway=pipestem. But don't worry, I don't plan to create a proposal for this, just using it for my AOI. :) -Josh On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not clear why this is all that different from an alley which might have garages along it. Creating a new tag here seems like overkill to me. Couldn't you just use one of the service values (driveway, alley, or just keep it at service), and add access tag, operator, etc.? I know taxonomies are fun, but don't see how pipestem adds much information. Brad On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:52 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: How do we differentiate between driveways and pipestems? Pipestems are common in planned residential developments (at least in the US), where a number of houses are located off a pipestem, each with their own driveways. Maintenance of the pipestem is the responsibility of all the homeowners off that particular pipestem. Pipestems aren't named roads, so highway=residential doesn't make since, but I'm not sure if I should use service=driveway both for the pipestems and for the individual driveways. I suppose I could use operator=*, but since it's just a collection of homeowners that typically don't have a name, I'm not sure what to put here. I don't want to invent a new tag if I don't have to, but I'm not sure how to use existing tags to make this distinction. Perhaps I could use highway=service, service=driveway, and driveway=pipestem? Suggestions are welcome! Thanks, -Josh [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:service%3Ddriveway#Pipestems ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
2011/2/26 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: I'm not proposing to create a new tag that becomes standard. If I have to I'll just use my_namespace=pipestem, but I'd rather use something that could possibly be reused by someone else. if it becomes reused by someone else (which would be good IMHO) it is kind of standard. Unless someone suggests otherwise, I'll use highway=service, service=driveway, and driveway=pipestem. But don't worry, I don't plan to create a proposal for this, just using it for my AOI. :) I'd say that this is fine. If you want you could document this in the wiki (e.g. on a proposal page or if already in wider use on a key page e.g. for service=driveway), so it gets more probable that other mappers follow this scheme for similar cases. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 07:52:39 -0500 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: How do we differentiate between driveways and pipestems? Pipestems are common in planned residential developments (at least in the US), where a number of houses are located off a pipestem, each with their own driveways. A right-of-way in australia - the right of way is restricted to the owners and guests I live on one, and we chose highway=service for it. I'm not sure why you need to differentiate between this and a driveway, but I think the driveway is mistagged if marked highway=service. Do you mark the driveways access=private? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
On 2/26/2011 5:27 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: I'm not sure why you need to differentiate between this and a driveway, but I think the driveway is mistagged if marked highway=service. Do you mark the driveways access=private? The standard for driveways is in fact highway=service service=driveway access=private. (I don't know what happens if a rail spur - railway=rail service=spur - runs along a driveway :)) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
2011/2/26 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: I'm not sure why you need to differentiate between this and a driveway, but I think the driveway is mistagged if marked highway=service. It is quite common to do so (currently there are 171710 ways tagged with service=driveway, which is a quarter of all values for the key service and 2nd position after parking_aisle). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
At 2011-02-26 14:35, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 2/26/2011 5:27 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: I'm not sure why you need to differentiate between this and a driveway, but I think the driveway is mistagged if marked highway=service. Do you mark the driveways access=private? The standard for driveways is in fact highway=service service=driveway access=private. I don't feel the need to tag access=* on a driveway. It seems that, wherever I draw a driveway, it's access is the same as the property to which it leads, by definition. A standard residential house's driveway (in the US) is on the private property of the homeowner. A driveway leading to a park is usually on the park property and any restrictions are usually posted at/near it's junction with the road, said restrictions applying to the park, not just the driveway. I think the pipestem thing is more detail than most people are likely to want to map, unless you are micro-mapping for the purpose of facilities management of a particular housing development. Where it is exaggerated (hundreds of meters), I tag it highway=service + access=private (usually with evidence from a posted sign at the intersection with the public road), and then tag the individual driveways off of it as highway=service + service=driveway (if I draw them at all). -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
West Virginia actually maintains and numbers these pipestems under the Home Access Route Program (example: http://www.gribblenation.com/wvpics/subs/939on11n-kerr.jpg) Before they were given to the state in the 1990s, they were orphan roads that were open to the public but not maintained by any government: http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/Code.cfm?chap=17art=2C I'm not sure if this is exactly the same thing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:04:23 -0800 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: I tag it highway=service + access=private (usually with evidence from a posted sign at the intersection with the public road), I'd favour access=permissive rather than private. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:04:23 -0800 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: The standard for driveways is in fact highway=service service=driveway access=private. I don't feel the need to tag access=* on a driveway. It seems that, wherever I draw a driveway, it's access is the same as the property to which it leads, by definition. A standard residential house's driveway (in the US) is on the private property of the homeowner. A driveway leading to a park is usually on the park property and any restrictions are usually posted at/near it's junction with the road, said restrictions applying to the park, not just the driveway. access= ?? is exactly why I feel that highway=service is the wrong thing for a driveway. It does not inherit the access defaults of the highway=service. I was going to describe the defaults of my driveway differently to your way, but the conclusion is the same - the access rights are different. If you wish to map highway=service service=driveway then I would still have hgv (literally, in my case) using the driveway with a standard router. My property adjoins an industrial complex. heavy goods vehicles (up to B-doubles in this case) are not wanted on the service road to the 2 houses and the office area, but have a more suitable entrance with access to a turning area. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
I agree about the access issue, by default for a driveway (or sub-type pipestem :) access should be private, as it's solely intended for the homeowner(s) to drive and/or park their vehicles. As Elizabeth points out, yes, it does require routers to check the sub-type to see if it's a driveway or not, but I don't think this is an issue, especially since driveways (or at least the definition I'm familiar with in the US) have no outlet and strictly lead to houses. And in terms of detail, yes, this is definitely micro-mapping, and true in part it has to do with facilities management. I'm very interested in micro-mapping, but I understand I am a small minority. However there's plenty of other crazy stuff I see mapped and tagged, so I don't think I'm being ridiculous. Regards, -Josh On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: At 2011-02-26 14:35, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 2/26/2011 5:27 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: I'm not sure why you need to differentiate between this and a driveway, but I think the driveway is mistagged if marked highway=service. Do you mark the driveways access=private? The standard for driveways is in fact highway=service service=driveway access=private. I don't feel the need to tag access=* on a driveway. It seems that, wherever I draw a driveway, it's access is the same as the property to which it leads, by definition. A standard residential house's driveway (in the US) is on the private property of the homeowner. A driveway leading to a park is usually on the park property and any restrictions are usually posted at/near it's junction with the road, said restrictions applying to the park, not just the driveway. I think the pipestem thing is more detail than most people are likely to want to map, unless you are micro-mapping for the purpose of facilities management of a particular housing development. Where it is exaggerated (hundreds of meters), I tag it highway=service + access=private (usually with evidence from a posted sign at the intersection with the public road), and then tag the individual driveways off of it as highway=service + service=driveway (if I draw them at all). -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
Interesting, this is a different definition of pipestem than what I'm familiar with. Pipestems as I know them (at least in Fairfax County, Virginia, USA), are a shared driveway leading to two or more houses. The houses on a pipestem are jointly responsible for maintaining the road themselves. Maybe there's another term used elsewhere, but I'm not aware of it. Again, I'm fine with not creating another tag (like driveway=pipestem), but the next best thing I can think of is to do something like operator=123-129 Suburb Street (as that's what's shown on signs, ugly for parsing), or perhaps I could create a pipestem relation showing which houses are responsible for the road :). Thanks for all the feedback, -Josh On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: West Virginia actually maintains and numbers these pipestems under the Home Access Route Program (example: http://www.gribblenation.com/wvpics/subs/939on11n-kerr.jpg) Before they were given to the state in the 1990s, they were orphan roads that were open to the public but not maintained by any government: http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/Code.cfm?chap=17art=2C I'm not sure if this is exactly the same thing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
On 2/26/2011 8:01 PM, Josh Doe wrote: Interesting, this is a different definition of pipestem than what I'm familiar with. Pipestems as I know them (at least in Fairfax County, Virginia, USA), are a shared driveway leading to two or more houses. The houses on a pipestem are jointly responsible for maintaining the road themselves. I think that was the case with these roads until the state took them over. See the law's references to property owners dedicating right-of-way. On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: West Virginia actually maintains and numbers these pipestems under the Home Access Route Program (example: http://www.gribblenation.com/wvpics/subs/939on11n-kerr.jpg) Before they were given to the state in the 1990s, they were orphan roads that were open to the public but not maintained by any government: http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/Code.cfm?chap=17art=2C I'm not sure if this is exactly the same thing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag pipestems (shared driveways)
Perhaps I could use highway=service, service=driveway, and driveway=pipestem? Suggestions are welcome! Creating a new tag here seems like overkill to me. I know taxonomies are fun, but don't see how pipestem adds much information. the distinction between the two are very important for my community. The proposal seems exactly right, given these factors. For people who don't care about the distinction, highway=service, service=driveway will do fine. For those that do, add the extra information. This sort of tagging should be encouraged, rather than what is normally proposed, something like highway=service, service=pipestem. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
