Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Andy Townsend]

On 09/02/2019 19:47, Sergio Manzi wrote:


The thing is quite obviously fruit of immagination, creativity, and/or 
delusion: there surely isn't out there such a concoction of toll 
booths (/many of them/), bunkers, town halls, dams, towers, 
campgrounds, etc.




As Simon has already mentioned this user has been reported, reverted and 
blocked (and a number of sock-puppets have been reverted and blocked 
too).  I'm assuming it's just a kid and they'll get bored eventually.  
It may take a while.



... but again I'm ready to bet that those detailed micronation's 
features are not to be found on the ground.



In a number of cases there _is_ something there, but what's there isn't 
by any stretch of the imagination a "country".  Sealand's probably the 
most famous example of this, but there are plenty of others , such as 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River .  Just map 
whatever's there such as a housename or a property name.


And that concerns me a lot, because it is really hard not thinking 
what implications events like this can have on the reliable 
availability of OSM data/services.


All data (not just OSM's) is "unreliable" for some value of 
unreliable.    OSM currently has two new-build houses down the street 
from me now that I suspect no other provider has, but other providers 
have plenty of information that OSM doesn't.  Also, every data consumer 
(of any data source) will always need to sanity check what they read in 
to make sure that it's sensible. That sanity checking might be a little 
or a lot, depending on what you're doing with the data.  Just displaying 
a nice geographical background?  Probably not so much checking needed.  
Displaying "countries of the world" and specifically targeting India or 
China?  You'll definitely need to adjust the data to match the 
"alternative facts" of your target market rather than actual physical 
reality  (and of course a map that works for one won't work for the other).


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Sergio Manzi]

There is something really wrong going on around that bogus micronation: more 
than half of Harmony Way (from the crossing with Allens Lane to the one with 
Mont Vernon Avenue) has disappeared, leaving many other ways isolated (e.g. 
Rose Avenue and Walnut Hills Drive).

Beside, the f..ing thing is still visible at some Z values.

Is someone looking at this?

Cheers

Sergio


On 2019-02-10 01:39, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 at 05:42, Simon Poole  > wrote:
>
> The user in question has already been blocked and at least their initial 
> changesets were reverted 2 months ago. Naturally any remaining fictional 
> edits should be reverted too and the user reported again to tho DWG.
>
>
> Thanks Simon
>
> The whole thing is still there as of yesterday, so something either didn't 
> work, or they're very persistent!
>
> Message has been forwarded to DWG for action.
>
> Thanks


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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 at 05:42, Simon Poole  wrote:

> The user in question has already been blocked and at least their initial
> changesets were reverted 2 months ago. Naturally any remaining fictional
> edits should be reverted too and the user reported again to tho DWG.
>

Thanks Simon

The whole thing is still there as of yesterday, so something either didn't
work, or they're very persistent!

Message has been forwarded to DWG for action.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Richard]

On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 09:29:58PM +0100, Sergio Manzi wrote:
> True, but I'm quite sure it is more difficult to fake Google Maps: some time 
> ago I had to register an entry in Google Maps and I went through a quite 
> secure mechanism that involved Google sending back to the registered address 
> a postcard (yes, a piece of paper) with a confirmation code printed on it 
> that I had to use to confirm the entry. I don't know if they still use that 
> mechanism. If yes, it is admirable.
> 
> The BBC article too talks about a verification process. A SNAFU at the 
> school's principal office?
> 
> Again, my uttermost concern is how to evitate to fall into a "fake maps" era, 
> after the "fake news" one...

if it is about something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberland there
should be methods to "map" this in OSM. Perhap Opencarto could have a special 
fill pattern with lions/hic sunt leones?

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[OSMDoudou]

People in search of mapping fictive worlds should consider OpenGeofiction: 
https://opengeofiction.net/#map=11/-20.1066/22.4554___
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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Sergio Manzi]

True, but I'm quite sure it is more difficult to fake Google Maps: some time 
ago I had to register an entry in Google Maps and I went through a quite secure 
mechanism that involved Google sending back to the registered address a 
postcard (yes, a piece of paper) with a confirmation code printed on it that I 
had to use to confirm the entry. I don't know if they still use that mechanism. 
If yes, it is admirable.

The BBC article too talks about a verification process. A SNAFU at the school's 
principal office?

Again, my uttermost concern is how to evitate to fall into a "fake maps" era, 
after the "fake news" one...

Sergio


On 2019-02-09 21:16, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 19:48, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
> wrote:
>
> But, yes, "there is /something/ out there": Google too report the 
> existence of a "Pitchfork Union" POI [1] [2].
>
>
> Google is not immune from vandalism.  As this recent report by the BBC shows:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-47118901  And while the name of 
> the nearby
> chip shop seems suspicious, it is apparently correct.
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 19:48, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

But, yes, "there is *something* out there": Google too report the existence
> of a "Pitchfork Union" POI [1] [2].
>

Google is not immune from vandalism.  As this recent report by the BBC
shows:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-47118901  And while the name
of the nearby
chip shop seems suspicious, it is apparently correct.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Sergio Manzi]

The thing is quite obviously fruit of immagination, creativity, and/or 
delusion: there surely isn't out there such a concoction of toll booths (/many 
of them/), bunkers, town halls, dams, towers, campgrounds, etc.

The creator's name too, "landhahaha", is also an hint for a probable vandalism.

But, yes, "there is /something/ out there": Google too report the existence of 
a "Pitchfork Union" POI [1] [2].  I really don't know what that could be. My 
bet is on some kind of elaborate prank, maybe even something funny, but again 
I'm ready to bet that those detailed micronation's features are not to be found 
on the ground.

And that concerns me a lot, because it is really hard not thinking what 
implications events like this can have on the reliable availability of OSM 
data/services.

Sergio


[1] 
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pitchfork+Union/@38.0057611,-87.6230528,17.47z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x8871d5133156772d:0xb52e4939112ac99d!2sEvansville,+IN,+USA!3b1!8m2!3d37.9715592!4d-87.5710898!3m4!1s0x8871d3a41e3edbcb:0x36d89880f9e4b0c6!8m2!3d38.0055153!4d-87.6223733?hl=en

[2] 
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0053737,-87.6226287,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipNc0Cno_lNKO_O8oyna_8ihGVTkuy_RQoo1oceA!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNc0Cno_lNKO_O8oyna_8ihGVTkuy_RQoo1oceA%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi2.3155072-ya316.65625-ro1.7720242-fo100!7i5376!8i2688?hl=en


On 2019-02-09 18:28, ael via Tagging wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 06:20:11PM +1100, Warin wrote:
>> On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
>>> Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>>>
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
>> In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that name ...
>> The basic question is ... is that area residential?
> But note the user name: it does suggest vandalism.
>
> ael
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Simon Poole]

May I point out that this discussion is patently silly? 

The user in question has already been blocked and at least their initial 
changesets were reverted 2 months ago. Naturally any remaining fictional edits 
should be reverted too and the user reported again to tho DWG.

Am 9. Februar 2019 18:28:35 MEZ schrieb ael via Tagging 
:
>On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 06:20:11PM +1100, Warin wrote:
>> On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:
>> > On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
>> > Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>> > 
>> > >
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
>> 
>> In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that
>name ...
>> The basic question is ... is that area residential?
>
>But note the user name: it does suggest vandalism.
>
>ael
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[ael via Tagging]

On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 06:20:11PM +1100, Warin wrote:
> On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
> > Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> > 
> > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
> 
> In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that name ...
> The basic question is ... is that area residential?

But note the user name: it does suggest vandalism.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Feb 2019, at 06:18, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> 
> My usual approach to micronations and fictional countries is to delete
> them, warn the user about mapping things that don't exist (yes, it's a
> form of vandalism), and point them at https://opengeofiction.net/


micronations do exist, you might not recognize them as countries or generally 
sovereign entities, but „something“ is there that can be mapped.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Warin]

On 09/02/19 16:18, Mark Wagner wrote:

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:


Does OSM recognise, & allow the mapping of, micronations as defined
areas? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Was looking for something completely different :-) & just found this
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
showing the "nation" of Pitchfork Union
https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Pitchfork_Union, complete with it's
Government Headquarters, Town Hall, military training areas, network
of roads, toll booths on the public roads giving access to the area,
6m tall city wall & so on, none of which is visible in any overhead
or street level imagery I can find.

Everything has been created by one user over the last couple of
months.

Before contacting them to confirm that any of this stuff actually
exists, I thought I'd check to see if what they've done is allowed,
or if it counts as vandalism?

Is there another way of handling this?

My usual approach to micronations and fictional countries is to delete
them, warn the user about mapping things that don't exist (yes, it's a
form of vandalism), and point them at https://opengeofiction.net/



In this case they have been mapped as a 'residential area' with that name ...
The basic question is ... is that area residential?
 If so it could be named that locally.
Certainly contact them to check the residential status. I'd leave the name out 
of it. Just the truth about the areas use.




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Re: [Tagging] Micronations

[Mark Wagner]

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:54:16 +1000
Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

> Does OSM recognise, & allow the mapping of, micronations as defined
> areas? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation
> 
> Was looking for something completely different :-) & just found this
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183
> showing the "nation" of Pitchfork Union
> https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Pitchfork_Union, complete with it's
> Government Headquarters, Town Hall, military training areas, network
> of roads, toll booths on the public roads giving access to the area,
> 6m tall city wall & so on, none of which is visible in any overhead
> or street level imagery I can find.
> 
> Everything has been created by one user over the last couple of
> months.
> 
> Before contacting them to confirm that any of this stuff actually
> exists, I thought I'd check to see if what they've done is allowed,
> or if it counts as vandalism?
> 
> Is there another way of handling this?

My usual approach to micronations and fictional countries is to delete
them, warn the user about mapping things that don't exist (yes, it's a
form of vandalism), and point them at https://opengeofiction.net/

-- 
Mark

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[Tagging] Micronations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Does OSM recognise, & allow the mapping of, micronations as defined areas?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Was looking for something completely different :-) & just found this
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/653287455#map=15/38.0034/-87.6183 showing
the "nation" of Pitchfork Union
https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Pitchfork_Union, complete with it's
Government Headquarters, Town Hall, military training areas, network of
roads, toll booths on the public roads giving access to the area, 6m tall
city wall & so on, none of which is visible in any overhead or street level
imagery I can find.

Everything has been created by one user over the last couple of months.

Before contacting them to confirm that any of this stuff actually exists, I
thought I'd check to see if what they've done is allowed, or if it counts
as vandalism?

Is there another way of handling this?

Thanks

Graeme
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