Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 5 June 2015 at 12:36, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 05.06.2015 um 11:33 schrieb David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com: As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. residential landuse is often seen as default, it is often used to mark the built up area rather than just the residential areas (especially in villages). We should encourage place polygons for this and restrict the use of residential landuse to residential areas. It would help a LOT if they were rendered on the standard map ! WHY do we have this agony of stuff not being rendered ? Here's a map of the world. We've not marked on any places as we feel it would be too confusing. What's the flipping point. Flog the renderers I say. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
You are fond of proposing keys with arbitrary numbers as the value, or part of the value. This would be fine if we were using a relational database, where a mapper could select one of a list of human-language descriptions, which would then get translated to the magic number for storage. However, we do not have such tables, and presenting a mapper with a list of choices such as photo1, photo2, and photo3 is likely to result in corrupted data, due to a mapper picking one at random, or misremembering what means what. As long as the descriptions of the values aren't shown at the time the value is being selected, we need to stick close to natural language, not magic numbers. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 6, 2015 5:31:48 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 5 June 2015 at 10:33, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is in any case ? I do see what you mean. I think the difference is that building = x in some sense defines the presence of the object, as does highway = x on a way. So, if building = x is not set (presumably on a circular way), or if highway = x is not set (presumably on a linear way), then those ways are just collections of nodes, nothing more. But oneway = x defines a *characteristic* of a way. A way must fundamentally *be* something (e.g. a building or a highway), but it may nor may not have any number of characteristics which don't alter that fundamental *being*. The only sensible way to deal with *characteristics* (other than insisting that every way has hundreds of tags) is to assume defaults. The problem with oneway is the key name - it's 3 letters too long: way=1 way=2 - maybe ways=1, ways=2. As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. Again, the issue is the letters in the tag. landuse=place or landuse=settlement - landuse=town rather than landuse=residential, place=town - combine the two. Personally I'm an advocate of covering the majority of the map (not necessarily 100%) with some form of landuse area, e.g. residential, industrial, grass/meadow/parkland, farmland, etc. -- though I appreciate that not everyone shares that view. Anyone that doesn't share that view should be nowhere near OSM ! Sounds like a military cover-up to me ;) I do feel the default map not covered should be black though - to make the unmapped areas stand out :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
The problem with oneway is the key name - it's 3 letters too long: How is this NOT trolling? -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-is-a-right-mess-was-Craigslist-OpenStreetMap-Rendering-Issue-tp5846860p5847385.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
In the same vein: way=0: no way! Better not to lose sleep over 3 letters. Jo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 5 June 2015 at 10:33, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is in any case ? I do see what you mean. I think the difference is that building = x in some sense defines the presence of the object, as does highway = x on a way. So, if building = x is not set (presumably on a circular way), or if highway = x is not set (presumably on a linear way), then those ways are just collections of nodes, nothing more. But oneway = x defines a *characteristic* of a way. A way must fundamentally *be* something (e.g. a building or a highway), but it may nor may not have any number of characteristics which don't alter that fundamental *being*. The only sensible way to deal with *characteristics* (other than insisting that every way has hundreds of tags) is to assume defaults. The problem with oneway is the key name - it's 3 letters too long: way=1 way=2 - maybe ways=1, ways=2. As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. Again, the issue is the letters in the tag. landuse=place or landuse=settlement - landuse=town rather than landuse=residential, place=town - combine the two. Personally I'm an advocate of covering the majority of the map (not necessarily 100%) with some form of landuse area, e.g. residential, industrial, grass/meadow/parkland, farmland, etc. -- though I appreciate that not everyone shares that view. Anyone that doesn't share that view should be nowhere near OSM ! Sounds like a military cover-up to me ;) I do feel the default map not covered should be black though - to make the unmapped areas stand out :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2015, at 9:26 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: presenting a mapper with a list of choices such as photo1, photo2, and photo3 is likely to result in corrupted data, due to a mapper picking one at random, Remember the epic discussion on track type? Even with pictures, the discussion went on and on Next we'll be grading train stations on platform size and presence of a shoeshiner... Jacbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 6/7/15 00:39 , jgpacker wrote: The problem with oneway is the key name - it's 3 letters too long: How is this NOT trolling? Honestly at this point I'm not sure either anymore. I just know it's getting annyoing as fuck... __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On Jun 5, 2015, at 8:26 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: I'm not a fan at all of non-physical road descriptions like primary, tertiary etc. Japan completely breaks OSM road descriptions, and uses the classifications above tertiary to match their governmental classification scheme - even when a “primary” road couldn’t otherwise meet the definition of a tertiary road if it didn’t have a “primary” government road shield from 1910. But it does make OSM consistent with existing Japanese mapping traditions. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 4 June 2015 at 10:46, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/06/15 00:48, pmailkeey . wrote: A value of residential here seems to need a key to identify whether it relates to a building or landuse. However, you suggest building=residential as possibly being redundant. In fact, I'd turn this on its head and make landuse=residential (with the exception of moles) redundant. The only residential landuse is directly under a building but by using landuse=residential, such areas cover gardens and highways - which are clearly not residences. The tag is landuse = residenTIAL, not landuse = residenCE. In other words, as Lester Caine says, it demarcates a residential zone, i.e. an area containing (mostly) homes plus associated infrastructure such as parks, gardens etc, as opposed to an area of shops, offices, industry, farmland, or whatever else. I agree with some of your frustrations about the project, but I think you sometimes jump to negative conclusions too quickly. landuse=residential is clearly useful, and equally I don't see that directions=xx is any improvement on oneway=xx. Pick your battles! (e.g. amenity I agree is a right mess.) LOL ! The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is in any case ? I do see what you mean. I think the difference is that building = x in some sense defines the presence of the object, as does highway = x on a way. So, if building = x is not set (presumably on a circular way), or if highway = x is not set (presumably on a linear way), then those ways are just collections of nodes, nothing more. But oneway = x defines a *characteristic* of a way. A way must fundamentally *be* something (e.g. a building or a highway), but it may nor may not have any number of characteristics which don't alter that fundamental *being*. The only sensible way to deal with *characteristics* (other than insisting that every way has hundreds of tags) is to assume defaults. oneway=no (that is, there are no legal restrictions on the direction in which one must traverse a way) seems a sensible default to me, and therefore if the oneway tag is not set, the way defaults to two-way. As I said in a separate post, though, oneway does not imply anything about number of lanes, who has priority, and so on. Does that make sense? (there are always exceptions, of course, but that's how I see the overarching philosophy.) As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. Personally I'm an advocate of covering the majority of the map (not necessarily 100%) with some form of landuse area, e.g. residential, industrial, grass/meadow/parkland, farmland, etc. -- though I appreciate that not everyone shares that view. Cheers, David (user Pgd81). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
Am 05.06.2015 um 11:33 schrieb David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com: As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. residential landuse is often seen as default, it is often used to mark the built up area rather than just the residential areas (especially in villages). We should encourage place polygons for this and restrict the use of residential landuse to residential areas. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 4/06/2015 11:49 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: OK, next option is directions=1 (way) directions=2 directions=unknown. That way, the key has no built-in value itself forcing the value to be read to have any, well, value ! And someone reading that tag will have no idea what it stands for. Maybe those are different exits? Does it has something to do with lanes? To me it stands for a direction sign ... ;-) Or 2 direction signs, or it is unknown if the re is a direction sign. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 5/06/2015 9:33 AM, pmailkeey . wrote: The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. Hospital can all so be a landuse, not just one building. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
For me it stands for 1 or 2 persons standing there you can get directions from. All you need to do is ask. It might be unknown when they're there :-) Anyway, for all its flaws the tagging system mostly works, don't fix it if it isn't (completely) broken. Cheers, Jo 2015-06-05 0:59 GMT+02:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: On 4/06/2015 11:49 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: OK, next option is directions=1 (way) directions=2 directions=unknown. That way, the key has no built-in value itself forcing the value to be read to have any, well, value ! And someone reading that tag will have no idea what it stands for. Maybe those are different exits? Does it has something to do with lanes? To me it stands for a direction sign ... ;-) Or 2 direction signs, or it is unknown if the re is a direction sign. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 5 June 2015 at 00:13, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: For me it stands for 1 or 2 persons standing there you can get directions from. All you need to do is ask. It might be unknown when they're there :-) Anyway, for all its flaws the tagging system mostly works, don't fix it if it isn't (completely) broken. Cheers, Jo The issue was renderers looking only at the key and assuming the value - creating misinformation. If that can be avoided, all the better! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 4 June 2015 at 14:49, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: OK, next option is directions=1 (way) directions=2 directions=unknown. That way, the key has no built-in value itself forcing the value to be read to have any, well, value ! And someone reading that tag will have no idea what it stands for. Maybe those are different exits? Does it has something to do with lanes? Oneway makes it very easy for every mapper to see the tag and know what it means. Another benefit is it's very simple english word. ___ I agree 'directions' isn't a good alternative, it was merely used for illustrative purposes. oneway needs to be the value, not the key. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 4 June 2015 at 10:46, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/06/15 00:48, pmailkeey . wrote: A value of residential here seems to need a key to identify whether it relates to a building or landuse. However, you suggest building=residential as possibly being redundant. In fact, I'd turn this on its head and make landuse=residential (with the exception of moles) redundant. The only residential landuse is directly under a building but by using landuse=residential, such areas cover gardens and highways - which are clearly not residences. The tag is landuse = residenTIAL, not landuse = residenCE. In other words, as Lester Caine says, it demarcates a residential zone, i.e. an area containing (mostly) homes plus associated infrastructure such as parks, gardens etc, as opposed to an area of shops, offices, industry, farmland, or whatever else. I agree with some of your frustrations about the project, but I think you sometimes jump to negative conclusions too quickly. landuse=residential is clearly useful, and equally I don't see that directions=xx is any improvement on oneway=xx. Pick your battles! (e.g. amenity I agree is a right mess.) LOL ! The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is in any case ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 4 June 2015 at 08:28, AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote: highway=road is where you cannot determine anything other than it is some link between features. Then you have not been trying to find routes between villages in Africa or Nepal during a HOT Activation where the unsurfaced feature you are seeing could be anything from a path to a track to a tertiary road about the width of a single lane or less and then again it could also be a dry watercourse. The rescue and humanitarian teams on the ground need maps as soon as humanly possible and putting highway=road for all unknown classifications is something that is easy for all volunteer mappers to understand and can be recalled from that area and verified later. But at least there is something tentative on the map for aid teams to attempt to get to the next small village if it is at all possible. And no...it is not possible to count the lanes on a sand track in the middle of the bush... but that may well be the tertiary link in that area and becomes an impassable muddy quagmire in the rainy season with small deviations off into the bush where vehicles have tried to find a temporary route around the mud trap. I'm not a fan at all of non-physical road descriptions like primary, tertiary etc. All they seem to do is add colour to the map which has little significance. It'd be more use if the highway colour related to physical facts - like width, depth of mud etc. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
OK, next option is directions=1 (way) directions=2 directions=unknown. That way, the key has no built-in value itself forcing the value to be read to have any, well, value ! And someone reading that tag will have no idea what it stands for. Maybe those are different exits? Does it has something to do with lanes? Oneway makes it very easy for every mapper to see the tag and know what it means. Another benefit is it's very simple english word. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
[Errr road is where you cannot determine the classification. highway=road is where you cannot determine anything other than it is some link between features. [ From satellite imagery I can infer the surface and number of lanes most of the time. [ I can usually infer the classification from the start, finish, connecting road classifications and some cultural knowledge. Then you have not been trying to find routes between villages in Africa or Nepal during a HOT Activation where the unsurfaced feature you are seeing could be anything from a path to a track to a tertiary road about the width of a single lane or less and then again it could also be a dry watercourse. The rescue and humanitarian teams on the ground need maps as soon as humanly possible and putting highway=road for all unknown classifications is something that is easy for all volunteer mappers to understand and can be recalled from that area and verified later. But at least there is something tentative on the map for aid teams to attempt to get to the next small village if it is at all possible. And no...it is not possible to count the lanes on a sand track in the middle of the bush... but that may well be the tertiary link in that area and becomes an impassable muddy quagmire in the rainy season with small deviations off into the bush where vehicles have tried to find a temporary route around the mud trap. On 4 June 2015 at 00:04, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/06/2015 11:16 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 03.06.2015 um 13:48 schrieb Richard ricoz@gmail.com: Better ideas? there's highway=road in use for situations where you trace from aerial imagery and have no clue about the situation on the ground (name, oneway, maxspeed etc) Errr road is where you cannot determine the classification. From satellite imagery I can infer the surface and number of lanes most of the time. I can usually infer the classification from the start, finish, connecting road classifications and some cultural knowledge. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 04/06/15 00:48, pmailkeey . wrote: A value of residential here seems to need a key to identify whether it relates to a building or landuse. However, you suggest building=residential as possibly being redundant. In fact, I'd turn this on its head and make landuse=residential (with the exception of moles) redundant. The only residential landuse is directly under a building but by using landuse=residential, such areas cover gardens and highways - which are clearly not residences. The tag is landuse = residenTIAL, not landuse = residenCE. In other words, as Lester Caine says, it demarcates a residential zone, i.e. an area containing (mostly) homes plus associated infrastructure such as parks, gardens etc, as opposed to an area of shops, offices, industry, farmland, or whatever else. I agree with some of your frustrations about the project, but I think you sometimes jump to negative conclusions too quickly. landuse=residential is clearly useful, and equally I don't see that directions=xx is any improvement on oneway=xx. Pick your battles! (e.g. amenity I agree is a right mess.) Cheers, David (user Pgd81). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3 June 2015 at 02:51, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: No tag Tag oneway tag twoway not an'equals' in sight and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway. I would say that's much worse both for mappers as well as consumers. Not even to mention documentation, because now you have two wiki pages which again is always a good source for errors. As a mapper I now have to check for both tags, there can be contradictions, QA Tools can't just check one value etc. For consumers the same. They now have to check two keys instead of one. And then this isn't the only case. Every yes/no would then be like that which would be a nightmare, because you will 2x the amount of tags, wiki pages and everything else that has to be kep up to date. No to mention that is simple doesn't work if it's not just 2 pairs like bus=yes/no... are you going to use no_bus=yes instead? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 OK, next option is directions=1 (way) directions=2 directions=unknown. That way, the key has no built-in value itself forcing the value to be read to have any, well, value ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3/06/2015 11:16 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 03.06.2015 um 13:48 schrieb Richard ricoz@gmail.com: Better ideas? there's highway=road in use for situations where you trace from aerial imagery and have no clue about the situation on the ground (name, oneway, maxspeed etc) Errr road is where you cannot determine the classification. From satellite imagery I can infer the surface and number of lanes most of the time. I can usually infer the classification from the start, finish, connecting road classifications and some cultural knowledge. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On Tue, Jun 02, 2015 at 07:28:11PM -0500, John Eldredge wrote: The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way. not really ideal. Should we use oneway=uknown for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont know or make a mess of the data. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 12:44:13PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard ricoz@gmail.com: oneway=uknown for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont know or make a mess of the data. armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard. Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit: maxheight =unknown maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc =unknown constructive criticism please. You can ridicule whole OSM like this if you substitute the unknown for no. Nobody is saying that those should be used on every object but judicious use may be better than the alternatives. Better ideas? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
If oneway=unknown is not present then it already is implicitly there. Too many tags showing that something is unknown may not be needed. On Wed, Jun 3, 2015, 6:49 AM Richard ricoz@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 12:44:13PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard ricoz@gmail.com: oneway=uknown for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont know or make a mess of the data. armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard. Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit: maxheight =unknown maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc =unknown constructive criticism please. You can ridicule whole OSM like this if you substitute the unknown for no. Nobody is saying that those should be used on every object but judicious use may be better than the alternatives. Better ideas? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard ricoz@gmail.com: oneway=uknown for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont know or make a mess of the data. armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard. Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit: maxheight =unknown maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc =unknown We could also add turn_restrictions with unknown restrictions, e.g. type=restriction restriction=unknown from to via etc. Or we could draw unknown objects under the ice shelves of greenland, the antarctica or in other permafrost regions. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
Am 03.06.2015 um 13:48 schrieb Richard ricoz@gmail.com: Better ideas? there's highway=road in use for situations where you trace from aerial imagery and have no clue about the situation on the ground (name, oneway, maxspeed etc) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 2, 2015 7:06:26 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all. In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not appear at all. The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the '=yes' is superfluous. OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'. Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies) an object fits in A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is - an amenity - man made - natural water (???!!) etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories. OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all. In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not appear at all. The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the '=yes' is superfluous. OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'. Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies) an object fits in A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is - an amenity - man made - natural water (???!!) etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories. OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3 June 2015 at 01:23, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure. That is quite possibly one of the big issues with it. And TBH, it's such a shame. More regulated activity in the very early days and less random input. Having said that, it's quite possibly the first random input project ever ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3/06/2015 10:39 AM, pmailkeey . wrote: On 3 June 2015 at 01:23, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure. That is quite possibly one of the big issues with it. And TBH, it's such a shame. More regulated activity in the very early days and less random input. Having said that, it's quite possibly the first random input project ever ! :-) I like the random input idea .. something about those monkeys typing a book .. wonder how they'd go making a map? -- Some words of 'encouragement' “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” George Bernard Shaw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3 June 2015 at 01:28, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way. No tag Tag oneway tag twoway not an'equals' in sight and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
No tag Tag oneway tag twoway not an'equals' in sight and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway. I would say that's much worse both for mappers as well as consumers. Not even to mention documentation, because now you have two wiki pages which again is always a good source for errors. As a mapper I now have to check for both tags, there can be contradictions, QA Tools can't just check one value etc. For consumers the same. They now have to check two keys instead of one. And then this isn't the only case. Every yes/no would then be like that which would be a nightmare, because you will 2x the amount of tags, wiki pages and everything else that has to be kep up to date. No to mention that is simple doesn't work if it's not just 2 pairs like bus=yes/no... are you going to use no_bus=yes instead? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
