Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
2015-03-22 14:00 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: +1 but please copy and archive the proposal +1, rather than (User moved page Proposed features/Smoking to Tag:smoking) (undo) the Tag definition page should be a new page, referring the proposal page (e.g. in the see also section, or maybe a dedicated proposal section), which should remain at its old address (this way, history remains much more understandable). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: I object. The feature page should document actual usage, and actual usage differs from proposed usage. smoking=outside is the second most common value and 15x more abundant than the proposed smoking:outside=yes. If you look, I indeed adjusted the new feature page to document current usage. smoking=outside is 20% of the usage, it was glaringly missing. smoking:outside is not a new proposal: it's been a documented Russian and German tag for years. Here the English pages lag. Beyond that smoking:outside is needed because with just smoking=outside you can't document things like: smoking=separated(inside) smoking:outside=yes (outside) The wiki can't be just for documenting high volume tags. The wiki has to describe tagging *schemes* that hold together and make sense. Else what's the point of the wiki? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
On 21.03.2015 01:54, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Any objection to moving: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Smoking because it is heavily used and obviously well established. I object. The feature page should document actual usage, and actual usage differs from proposed usage. smoking=outside is the second most common value and 15x more abundant than the proposed smoking:outside=yes. By the way, I find the proposed tag smoking:outside=separated ridiculous because you cannot separate air masses outside. The proposed keys smokefree=* (65 objects) and smoking_hours=* (14 objects) should also be removed from the feature page. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:smoking http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Key:smoking ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Am 21.03.2015 um 18:43 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: Am 21.03.2015 um 08:54 schrieb Michael Reichert naka...@gmx.net: I agree. Because it is used on 47541 objects at OSM all over the world, it's best to move the page to Key:smoking. +1 +1 but please copy and archive the proposal fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Moved http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:smoking Left for now http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dsmoking_area There is some divergence between the translations. Tag:amenity%3Dsmoking_area appeared in a unilateral edit on 14 May 2014 by user ArPi with comment create microwiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ArPi ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:00 AM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
+1 but please copy and archive the proposal
I'm pretty sure I screwed up the archive process,
despite the template {{Archived proposal}}. Sorry.
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Heh. Few things that look easy really are. I'll additionally propose to fold: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dsmoking_areaaction=history Into smoking=yes ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Hi Bryce, Am 2015-03-21 um 01:54 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt: Any objection to moving: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Smoking because it is heavily used and obviously well established. I agree. Because it is used on 47541 objects at OSM all over the world, it's best to move the page to Key:smoking. We do not have to vote on every peanut. OSM wiki should document how tags are used and not how tags must be used. Best regards Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Hi, Am 2015-03-21 um 02:29 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt: Additions to that page, I'd think, should be proposed separately. - The utility undergrounding RFC proposes tagging for a similar regional default value. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Quickly_Marking_Utility_Wires Eventually the tools will catch up :-) But that case is simpler. Smoking rules depend on the area AND the establishment type: smoking_default:yes=restaurant;cafe smoking_default:unknown=bar And the legal definition of the restriction may not mach OSM's definition (e.g. smoking maybe allowed in certain bars owned by people who donate money to a particular party ;-). There are several reasons why I do not like tagging smoking rules on boundary relations. (1) It is difficult to map smoking restrictions in restaurants/bars/cafes to OSM tags. By default, smoking in all German states is prohibited but there are exceptions. Let's have a look at the exceptions in the State of Baden-Württemberg (south-west Germany): 1. Smoking is banned in all restaurants, pubs, cafes, discothèques. 2. Smoking is allowed at pubs if they are smaller than 75 m², do not serve hot meals and must not be entered by people below the age of 18 years. 3. Smoking is allowed at separated rooms at discothèques if these separated smoking rooms do not have a dance floor and the whole discothèques must not be entered by people below the age of 18 years. How would you now tag the boundary relation of Baden-Württemberg? Please note that a small pub (60 m²) does not have to allow smoking, i.e. you cannot tag defaults which are valid for all pubs. It is better not tag any default values in such states and to wait until a mapper visits the restaurant/pub and add the tags. (2) Such bans on smoking often extend on other locations, e.g. stations [1], public transport vehicles, public buildings, … How many tags do you want to add to boundary relations. (3) Boundary relations easily and often break, i.e. smoking rule data at OSM can often not be used if the boundary of a city/state/country is broken. (4) OSM data should be easily to use. Why should we force our data users to use boundaries if they just want to create a OpenCigaretteMap? (5) OSM data should be easy to contribute. Please keep the on-the-ground-rule in mind. Best regards Michael (not and never smoking) [1] How to handle small areas on platforms where smoking is allowed? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Raucherbereich_im_D%C3%BCsseldorfer_Hauptbahnhof_DSCF1367.jpg (you can find these yellow marked smoking areas at all major German stations above ground. -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Am 21.03.2015 um 08:54 schrieb Michael Reichert naka...@gmx.net: I agree. Because it is used on 47541 objects at OSM all over the world, it's best to move the page to Key:smoking. +1 cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
I propose adding a small note to specifically cover designated smoking
areas on closed ways:
smoking=designated
area=yes
As the remaining smokers must find and congregate in those :-).
And removing the section on default relations, as it's not actually used
(and as noted problematic):
// query part for: “smoking=* and type=boundary”
relation[smoking][type=boundary]({{bbox}});
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Additions to that page, I'd think, should be proposed separately. - The utility undergrounding RFC proposes tagging for a similar regional default value. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Quickly_Marking_Utility_Wires Eventually the tools will catch up :-) But that case is simpler. Smoking rules depend on the area AND the establishment type: smoking_default:yes=restaurant;cafe smoking_default:unknown=bar And the legal definition of the restriction may not mach OSM's definition (e.g. smoking maybe allowed in certain bars owned by people who donate money to a particular party ;-). I say the definition of the tag should simply state that legally mandated smoking status should either not be tagged at all, or given *smoking=per_local_law*. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
Any objection to moving: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Smoking because it is heavily used and obviously well established. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com wrote: I don't object, but it would be nice if there was a way to say a city or county was non-smoking in certain types of establishments by default, in addition to tagging each one as smoking=no. I agree. Since OSM is a geographical database, we could tag the city/county/state boundary with default value. i.e. no smoking in public places, speed limit when not posted, etc. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal : Move smoking tag to active status
On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 17:54 -0700, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Any objection to moving: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Smoking because it is heavily used and obviously well established. I don't object, but it would be nice if there was a way to say a city or county was non-smoking in certain types of establishments by default, in addition to tagging each one as smoking=no. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
