Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Jez Nicholson]

You might need to divide 'data user' into:

'data processors (?)' - those that extract, manipulate, and combine data
ready to use/display.

'database users' - those that use/display the information with minimal
preprocessing.

Recent discussions appear to be a mismatch between the needs of the 2.

On Wed, 13 May 2020, 09:43 Shawn K. Quinn,  wrote:

> On 5/13/20 03:31, Colin Smale wrote:
> > These are two distinct user types or personas, each with their own list
> > of requirements/expectations. Let's recognise that and treat them
> > separately in this discussion.
>
> Okay, "map user" and "data user" then? Anything to get "consumer" out of
> the lexicon... it doesn't belong.
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn 
> http://www.rantroulette.com
> http://www.skqrecordquest.com
>
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Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 5/13/20 03:31, Colin Smale wrote:
> These are two distinct user types or personas, each with their own list
> of requirements/expectations. Let's recognise that and treat them
> separately in this discussion.
  
Okay, "map user" and "data user" then? Anything to get "consumer" out of
the lexicon... it doesn't belong.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-05-13 10:20, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

> On 5/12/20 17:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: 
> 
>> I'd really like somebody to come up with simple definitions of
>> 
>> mappers,
>> 
>> data consumers / customers,
>> 
>> users?
> 
> I'd consider "user" and "data consumer" to be the same thing (but would
> prefer "user" or even "data user" in light of the objection to
> "consumer" used in this context at
> ).
> 
> A "user" is someone who makes use of the data generated by the
> OpenStreetMap project including its volunteers.

I think we should be clear about the distinction between consumers of
the DATA (via APIs and downloads, in XML and PBF formats) and users of
the RESULTS of processing that data (map renderings, other applications
etc). Officially (unless it's changed) OSM is about the DATA, but many
issues with the data don't surface until someone sees the results. These
are two distinct user types or personas, each with their own list of
requirements/expectations. Let's recognise that and treat them
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Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 5/12/20 17:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> I'd really like somebody to come up with simple definitions of
> 
> mappers,
> 
> data consumers / customers,
> 
> users?

I'd consider "user" and "data consumer" to be the same thing (but would
prefer "user" or even "data user" in light of the objection to
"consumer" used in this context at
).

A "user" is someone who makes use of the data generated by the
OpenStreetMap project including its volunteers. A "mapper" (or "editor")
would be someone who creates and/or updates the data for the project.
One easily can be both at different times, in fact, I would hope most if
not all mappers "eat their own dog food" and use OSM data as much as
possible in preference to e.g. Google or Bing maps.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 13.05.20 à 00:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> I'd really like somebody to come up with simple definitions of

let's try :)

> mappers,

someone who adds data into osm

> data consumers / customers,

someone who get data from osm

> I map, & I then also "use" OSMand for navigation purposes, so what am I?

a mappers and a user of OSMand (by using OSMAnd, you don't use the data
directly, if a tag changes, it is osmand that has to change and not you
as an osmand user).

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 11:13, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> Dirt road may be highway=trunk if it is the main road of national road
> system.
> Muddy road, not even surface=compacted is highway=primary in some region.
>
> is it mistagged as highway=track? Then it is a data issue, not rendering
> issue.
>

Currently tagged as highway=secondary, so I'll have a look at upping them
to primary / trunk, thanks.

> Same, same with the (OSM) villages / hamlets / remote dwellings that this
> road serves. A single building out in the middle of nowhere, in the OSM
> universe, is too small & insignificant to be noticed, *but* that pub,
> with attached service (gas) station, general store & camping ground, is
> also the major point of civilisation for that 1000 k's!, so how important
> is it in real life to those people who are travelling through that area?
> Extremely!
>
> This is sadly a hard to resolve rendering issue. Special purpose rendering
> of OSM data may be helpful for such areas.
>

The concept of mapping "villages" as towns to make them show has been
discussed several times on the Aussie list! Yes, yes, it's tagging for the
renderer, but sometimes that seems to be the only way around things?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

May 13, 2020, 00:18 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

> One in particular, roads in remote areas - yes, it's a dirt road, connecting 
> very small centres of population / remote "farms" (if it's still a "farm" 
> when it's bigger in area than some countries > ‽> ) only, so it "can't" be 
> important
>
Dirt road may be highway=trunk if it is the main road of national road system.

Muddy road, not even surface=compacted is highway=primary in some region.


>  so it doesn't appear on OSM till you zoom right in,
>
is it mistagged as highway=track? Then it is a data issue, not rendering issue.

>  > but>  it's also the > only>  "main" road for 1000 k's in any direction, so 
> you would think that it should be shown at high level zoom?
>
Is it correctly mapped with proper highway tag?

> Same, same with the (OSM) villages / hamlets / remote dwellings that this 
> road serves. A single building out in the middle of nowhere, in the OSM 
> universe, is too small & insignificant to be noticed, > but>  that pub, with 
> attached service (gas) station, general store & camping ground, is also the 
> major point of civilisation for that 1000 k's!, so how important is it in 
> real life to those people who are travelling through that area? Extremely!
>
This is sadly a hard to resolve rendering issue. Special purpose rendering of 
OSM data
may be helpful for such areas.

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Re: [Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 20:36, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On 5/12/20 11:42 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Yes. Users are the ultimate measure of quality, yet they are most often
> absent from our discussions.


>From comments on the "contact point" thread

On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 20:43, Sören alias Valor Naram 
wrote:

>
> I am a "data customer" ... But mappers are not listening to data customers


I'd really like somebody to come up with simple definitions of

mappers,

data consumers / customers,

users?

OK, I map, & I then also "use" OSMand for navigation purposes, so what am I?

Our history explains why: in the beginning, we had a blank map, which we
> set upon filling with whatever we could


Perhaps unfortunately, this was filled with a British / Western European /
American view that because it's like this "here", the rest of the World
must be the same, so must follow along with our set rules.

Looking at the world and thinking about how we should model it should be
> done with an understanding of how users want it.


Agree entirely, but as we have seen a few times in recent weeks. just
because "this" definition doesn't apply in UK, EU / USA, there's no reason
to wipe it from the map entirely, because it very well could, & does, apply
perfectly  in other parts of the World.

This is difficult when we have few users around and very little feedback
> from downstream. So, if one has
> opportunities to bring that to our knowledge, please do:


I, & others, have done so a few times, to basically be told sorry, that's
not how it works in OSM - these are the rules & you have to follow them.

One in particular, roads in remote areas - yes, it's a dirt road,
connecting very small centres of population / remote "farms" (if it's still
a "farm" when it's bigger in area than some countries ‽) only, so it
"can't" be important, so it doesn't appear on OSM till you zoom right in,
*but* it's also the *only* "main" road for 1000 k's in any direction, so
you would think that it should be shown at high level zoom?

Same, same with the (OSM) villages / hamlets / remote dwellings that this
road serves. A single building out in the middle of nowhere, in the OSM
universe, is too small & insignificant to be noticed, *but* that pub, with
attached service (gas) station, general store & camping ground, is also the
major point of civilisation for that 1000 k's!, so how important is it in
real life to those people who are travelling through that area? Extremely!

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 5/12/20 11:42 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

I love the fact that we are now 50 messages into discussing, for the second
time, a change that would be made ostensibly for the benefit of data
consumers, and yet no one has asked any actual data consumers.


Yes. Users are the ultimate measure of quality, yet they are most often 
absent from our discussions. Our history explains why: in the beginning, 
we had a blank map, which we set upon filling with whatever we could, to 
get the stone soup started. There were no consumers at all - so 
naturally our universe was supply-side entirely: the availability of 
data inspired usage, which came second. Nowadays, Openstreetmap is used 
- let's take advantage of that to improve ! Looking at the world and 
thinking about how we should model it should be done with an 
understanding of how users want it. This is difficult when we have few 
users around and very little feedback from downstream. So, if one has 
opportunities to bring that to our knowledge, please do: it is valuable 
information to the Openstreetmap project, information without which we 
cannot allocate our efforts optimally.



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