Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Bryce Nesbitt]

OK, latest draft is up at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets
It involves the discouraged ; operator, though perhaps in an acceptable use
case.
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Brian Wolford
wrote:
>
> For what seem to be clear categories:
> flush, sealed pit, unsealed pit, removable/"batch" container
>

Then how does a typical composting toilet get tagged?  Flush?  Sealed pit?

And how do we get the chemical smell aspect into things?
sealed-pit-with-chemicals
sealed-pit-without-chemicals?

 

I count the manual flush toilets as flush (even you have to use a bucket).
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

Composting:
What's catching me up is that that system is just _one_ type of composting
toilet. There are many types; dry (w/o urine), simple (w/ urine),
vermicompost(worms), electric(vent fan and stirrer), and blackwater for
example. And they can be presented in different ways, to operate like
modern toilets or not. Many compost-privies on hiking trails can run the
spectrum on type of composting being used. And many methods are used in
other low-resource environments. This is why I think it would be better to
tag composting separately and leave it available for further definition.
Maybe this is a proposal I should begin to work on.
http://www.oursoil.org/what-we-do/toilets/models/

Also, the stink-factor I think mainly relies on maintenance and up-keep. A
pit toilet does not have to any more stinky than a composter as long as
proper cover material is still used, and I've seem some composters that are
not properly kept and would rank up with the worst toilets to visit.

Haha, toilet:output=humanure.

For what seem to be clear categories:
flush, sealed pit, unsealed pit, removable/"batch" container

And then we also seem to need to clarify the port-a-potty.

And we also need to tag for two different reasons, 1) the
user experience and 2) analysis by sanitation experts.


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Wolford <
> worldwidewolf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't see the relevant difference, then, between an onsite compost
>> toilet and a pit, to the toilet experience.They are both an open drop where
>> you can see the waste.
>>
>
>  Perhaps the user experience difference is better captured in a out-of-osm
> voting system about how "stinky" a toilet is.
>
> We seem to agree that "water flush toilet" is a clear category.  But
> "pits" get murkier: chemical vs. no, vault vs. unlined pit,
> composting vs. pile of waste, portable bucket vs. permanent.
>
> A pit has a pile of human waste at the bottom.
> A chemical toilet drops the same waste into a liquid chemical.
> A composting toilet the majority of the waste is undergoing composition.
>  These all smell *completely* different.
>
> http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/47951/Won-t-That-Stink-Living-in-a-Green-Home-with-a-Composting-Toilet
>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[fly]

On 20.06.2013 18:46, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> Ok, good points. There are at least three major "front end" experiences,
> none of which are exclusive at any location:
> 
>  1. Squat
>  2. Sit
>  3. Urinal
> 
> And one fairly critical front-end refinement related to wiping:
> 
>  1. Toilet paper provided.
>  2. BYOP (Bring your own paper if you want it)
>  3. Rag provided (you wash it out yourself)

I do not need paper but a flexible tube with little water pressure and a
thumb can be used to clean yourself and flush the toilet.

fly

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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[fly]

On 20.06.2013 21:39, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Wolford
> mailto:worldwidewolf...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> I don't see the relevant difference, then, between an onsite compost
> toilet and a pit, to the toilet experience.They are both an open
> drop where you can see the waste.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the user experience difference is better captured in a
> out-of-osm voting system about how "stinky" a toilet is.
> 
> We seem to agree that "water flush toilet" is a clear category.  But
> "pits" get murkier: chemical vs. no, vault vs. unlined pit,
> composting vs. pile of waste, portable bucket vs. permanent.

In Asia it is quite common to flush manually (e.g. you have a water
filled bucket next to toilet and a small bowl to get the water in the
toilet.

> A pit has a pile of human waste at the bottom.
> A chemical toilet drops the same waste into a liquid chemical.
> A composting toilet the majority of the waste is undergoing composition.
>  These all smell /completely/ different.
> http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/47951/Won-t-That-Stink-Living-in-a-Green-Home-with-a-Composting-Toilet

Yeah, quite a big difference ! Myself, has no problem with the first and
third solution but I try to avoid the second one and rather find my own
place and use a shovel.

fly

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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Wolford
wrote:

> I don't see the relevant difference, then, between an onsite compost
> toilet and a pit, to the toilet experience.They are both an open drop where
> you can see the waste.
>

Perhaps the user experience difference is better captured in a out-of-osm
voting system about how "stinky" a toilet is.

We seem to agree that "water flush toilet" is a clear category.  But "pits"
get murkier: chemical vs. no, vault vs. unlined pit,
composting vs. pile of waste, portable bucket vs. permanent.

A pit has a pile of human waste at the bottom.
A chemical toilet drops the same waste into a liquid chemical.
A composting toilet the majority of the waste is undergoing composition.
 These all smell *completely* different.
http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/47951/Won-t-That-Stink-Living-in-a-Green-Home-with-a-Composting-Toilet
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

I don't see the relevant difference, then, between an onsite compost toilet
and a pit, to the toilet experience.They are both an open drop where you
can see the waste. I think it's better to use composting= for designating
if its composting and how. Especially since it can or cannot apply to
multiple types. And many people have an interest in composting objects.

I would replace composting with chemical in the toilet:vault options. Or
maybe "portable" is a better option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_toilet

toilets:vault =[flush,
pit ,bucket,portable]

I like portable better than chemical. I think there is a big difference
between the other types of toilets and a portable one. And this distinction
is a very important one when mapping sanitation objects for humanitarian
use. So it is better it gets  designated and documented in a proper way.

+1 on rendering not being able to pick up more than 2 or 3 types, or
needing to. In disclosure, I am influenced by the complexity of sanitation
objects I have had to map with HOT and other orgs, but it is useful and
needed info.


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> To me a bucket is a bucket. What happens *outside the toilet* is of no
> relevance to the toilet experience.
>
> The use of chemicals is, however, relevant.   Chemically sensitive people
> for example may avoid chemical toilets of any style.
> Does that have to be a tag of its own?
>
> toilets =yes
> *toilets:chemical*=[yes,no]
> toilets:vault 
> =[flush,vault,pit 
> ,bucket,composting]
> toilets:positions=[urinal,seat,squat]
> toilets:wheelchair 
> =[yes,limited,designated,no]
> drinking_water =yes
> fee=no
>
> That said, I can't see rendering engines using more than two icons:
> "toilet" and some form of "outhouse".
> All our composting and chemical dreams aside, those are the two most
> important subdivisions.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Brian Wolford <
> worldwidewolf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is great.
>> One note on composing. Compost toilets can be both fixed location pits,
>> and buckets. I'm familiar with systems where buckets (5 to 40 gallons) are
>> filled with waste and then dumped on a local compost or picked up by a
>> third party and brought to a human waste composing center.
>>
>> I would say toilets:waste=flush,pitlatrine,bucket. And then add the
>> established composting=yes tag to tag as composting. This also covers flush
>> composters.
>>
>> I would also like to see chemical toilets brought back in somehow. They
>> are important WASH objects in camp mapping.
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Bryce Nesbitt]

To me a bucket is a bucket. What happens *outside the toilet* is of no
relevance to the toilet experience.

The use of chemicals is, however, relevant.   Chemically sensitive people
for example may avoid chemical toilets of any style.
Does that have to be a tag of its own?

toilets =yes
*toilets:chemical*=[yes,no]
toilets:vault 
=[flush,vault,pit 
,bucket,composting]
toilets:positions=[urinal,seat,squat]
toilets:wheelchair 
=[yes,limited,designated,no]
drinking_water =yes
fee=no

That said, I can't see rendering engines using more than two icons:
"toilet" and some form of "outhouse".
All our composting and chemical dreams aside, those are the two most
important subdivisions.


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Brian Wolford
wrote:

> This is great.
> One note on composing. Compost toilets can be both fixed location pits,
> and buckets. I'm familiar with systems where buckets (5 to 40 gallons) are
> filled with waste and then dumped on a local compost or picked up by a
> third party and brought to a human waste composing center.
>
> I would say toilets:waste=flush,pitlatrine,bucket. And then add the
> established composting=yes tag to tag as composting. This also covers flush
> composters.
>
> I would also like to see chemical toilets brought back in somehow. They
> are important WASH objects in camp mapping.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

This is great.
One note on composing. Compost toilets can be both fixed location pits,
and buckets. I'm familiar with systems where buckets (5 to 40 gallons) are
filled with waste and then dumped on a local compost or picked up by a
third party and brought to a human waste composing center.

I would say toilets:waste=flush,pitlatrine,bucket. And then add the
established composting=yes tag to tag as composting. This also covers flush
composters.

I would also like to see chemical toilets brought back in somehow. They are
important WASH objects in camp mapping.
On Jun 20, 2013 12:47 PM, "Bryce Nesbitt"  wrote:

> Ok, good points. There are at least three major "front end" experiences,
> none of which are exclusive at any location:
>
>1. Squat
>2. Sit
>3. Urinal
>
> And one fairly critical front-end refinement related to wiping:
>
>1. Toilet paper provided.
>2. BYOP (Bring your own paper if you want it)
>3. Rag provided (you wash it out yourself)
>
>
>
> --
>
> Major back-end experiences include:
>
>1. Flush (waste is carried away after each use)
>2. Pit (waste remains on site)
>
> But it divides down more than that:
>
>1. Pits
>   1. unlined pits (waste drops into a hole -- the most common type.
>When full, a new hole is dug nearby.)
>   2. lined pits  (waste drops into a vault which is periodically
>   pumped out)
>   3. composting (waste drops into an on-site composting vault, with
>   potential for reduced odor)
>   4. chemical (a lined vault is filled with a chemical.  common on
>   portable toilets).
>   5. bucket (just a bucket someone has to remove periodically).
>2. Flush
>   1. Water flushing (clean water is used to help remove waste).
>   2. Waterless flushing (e.g. Water Free Technolgies)
>
> There's also a squat/sit combo just to jazz things up:
> (See http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Pedestal-squat-toilet.jpg
>  )
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But the important distinctions may be less.  I'd be happy with no more
> than three categories:
>
>- Flush toilet
>- Open pits (where you see the waste)
>- Composting (where the waste is continually treated, and often not
>apparent)
>
>
> Thus it might be:
>
> toilets=yes  or amenity=toilets
> toilets:position=(squat,seat,urinal)
> toilets:waste=[flush,pitlatrine,composting,bucket]
> toilets:paper=no
> fee=[yes,no]
>
> Where a multiple value of "toilets:position=seat;urinal" would be most
> common in Western countries.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Ok, good points. There are at least three major "front end" experiences,
none of which are exclusive at any location:

   1. Squat
   2. Sit
   3. Urinal

And one fairly critical front-end refinement related to wiping:

   1. Toilet paper provided.
   2. BYOP (Bring your own paper if you want it)
   3. Rag provided (you wash it out yourself)


--

Major back-end experiences include:

   1. Flush (waste is carried away after each use)
   2. Pit (waste remains on site)

But it divides down more than that:

   1. Pits
  1. unlined pits (waste drops into a hole -- the most common type.
   When full, a new hole is dug nearby.)
  2. lined pits  (waste drops into a vault which is periodically pumped
  out)
  3. composting (waste drops into an on-site composting vault, with
  potential for reduced odor)
  4. chemical (a lined vault is filled with a chemical.  common on
  portable toilets).
  5. bucket (just a bucket someone has to remove periodically).
   2. Flush
  1. Water flushing (clean water is used to help remove waste).
  2. Waterless flushing (e.g. Water Free Technolgies)

There's also a squat/sit combo just to jazz things up:
(See http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Pedestal-squat-toilet.jpg )

[image: Inline image 1]









But the important distinctions may be less.  I'd be happy with no more than
three categories:

   - Flush toilet
   - Open pits (where you see the waste)
   - Composting (where the waste is continually treated, and often not
   apparent)


Thus it might be:

toilets=yes  or amenity=toilets
toilets:position=(squat,seat,urinal)
toilets:waste=[flush,pitlatrine,composting,bucket]
toilets:paper=no
fee=[yes,no]

Where a multiple value of "toilets:position=seat;urinal" would be most
common in Western countries.
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:06 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

> Well, you also have the old-style outhouse, where you have a small
> building, including a seat, located above a pit which receives the waste.
> The temporary latrines used at construction sites are much the same, except
> that the "pit" is the bottom portion of the latrine, and the whole thing is
> hauled away to be emptied. I have seen parks where these "temporary"
> portable latrines are in year-round use, to spare the expense of having to
> install water supply pipes and sewers.
>

"Port-a-Potties" would be "chemical" under this scheme. I think the big
difference between "pit" and "bucket" is that a pit would be stationary
where the container that receives the waste for bucket is removed and
dumped somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_toilet

Chemical toilets are often permanent features in displaced-person camps
(speaking for Haiti), as well.
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[John F. Eldredge]

Well, you also have the old-style outhouse, where you have a small building, 
including a seat, located above a pit which receives the waste.  The temporary 
latrines used at construction sites are much the same, except that the "pit" is 
the bottom portion of the latrine, and the whole thing is hauled away to be 
emptied.  I have seen parks where these "temporary" portable latrines are in 
year-round use, to spare the expense of having to install water supply pipes 
and sewers.


Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 2013/6/20 Brian Wolford 
> 
> > you can have pits with flush or without so this modification doesn't
> work.
> >> What are the benefits of the changes you propose?
> >>
> >> I think it is referring to the "front-end" or "user-experience" of
> the
> > toilet. In which case it wouldn't be both flush or pit, flush being
> water
> > carries it away, and pit being a drop directly into a stationary
> container.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> +1 for flush being water carrying it away, but I thought pit would
> refer to
> a hole in the "ground" (or floor, i.e. a place where you stand to do
> your
> business) as opposed to a seat, but now I understand you see this as
> opposed to being attached to the sewers? IMHO the most important
> "front-end" experience is the distinction between standing and being
> seated
> (when it comes to toilet typology).
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
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"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria___
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[fly]

On 20.06.2013 16:55, Brian Wolford wrote:
> 
> 
> +1 for flush being water carrying it away, but I thought pit would
> refer to a hole in the "ground" (or floor, i.e. a place where you
> stand to do your business) as opposed to a seat, but now I
> understand you see this as opposed to being attached to the sewers?
> 
> 
> Not necessarily sewers, but that water carries the waste away.
> Blackwater and septic are flush w/o sewer connection.
>  
> 
> IMHO the most important "front-end" experience is the distinction
> between standing and being seated (when it comes to toilet typology).
> 
> 
> Good point.
> What if it looked something like:
> 
> toilets=[yes/seated/standing/no]
> toilets:type=[flush/pit/chemical/bucket]
> toilets:method=[sewer/septic/blackwater/(various-types-of-composting)/(proper-word-for-dig-a-new-hole-when-full)/(emptied-by-truck)/user
> defined,...]
> 
> Thoughts?

Reminds me of the signs in Asia: "Do not stand on the toilets"

As western "sitting" toilets are not common people tend to stand
crouching on the toilets.

fly


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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

>
> +1 for flush being water carrying it away, but I thought pit would refer
> to a hole in the "ground" (or floor, i.e. a place where you stand to do
> your business) as opposed to a seat, but now I understand you see this as
> opposed to being attached to the sewers?
>

Not necessarily sewers, but that water carries the waste away. Blackwater
and septic are flush w/o sewer connection.


>  IMHO the most important "front-end" experience is the distinction between
> standing and being seated (when it comes to toilet typology).
>

Good point.
What if it looked something like:

toilets=[yes/seated/standing/no]
toilets:type=[flush/pit/chemical/bucket]
toilets:method=[sewer/septic/blackwater/(various-types-of-composting)/(proper-word-for-dig-a-new-hole-when-full)/(emptied-by-truck)/user
defined,...]

Thoughts?
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/6/20 Brian Wolford 

> you can have pits with flush or without so this modification doesn't work.
>> What are the benefits of the changes you propose?
>>
>> I think it is referring to the "front-end" or "user-experience" of the
> toilet. In which case it wouldn't be both flush or pit, flush being water
> carries it away, and pit being a drop directly into a stationary container.
>



+1 for flush being water carrying it away, but I thought pit would refer to
a hole in the "ground" (or floor, i.e. a place where you stand to do your
business) as opposed to a seat, but now I understand you see this as
opposed to being attached to the sewers? IMHO the most important
"front-end" experience is the distinction between standing and being seated
(when it comes to toilet typology).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

>
> you can have pits with flush or without so this modification doesn't work.
> What are the benefits of the changes you propose?
>
> I think it is referring to the "front-end" or "user-experience" of the
toilet. In which case it wouldn't be both flush or pit, flush being water
carries it away, and pit being a drop directly into a stationary container.
The only "flush and pit" toilet I can think of would be a blackwater
system. Which I think could use something like toilets:method or
toilets:technology or anything else to define blackwater, septic, sewer,
ect...
So for example I would think of tagging a blackwater system like:

*amenity=toilets*
*toilets:type=flush*
*toilets:method=blackwater*

*composting=yes*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_(waste)


I prefer your alternative to the proposal page, although I think the
> ":type" is unnecessary, and toilets=pit would be better.
>

toilets=yes is already being used with amenity=* or shop=* to tag toilets
on premises. I don't know if this creates a conflict.


+1 for this alternative

Best,
Brian
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

On 20/giu/2013, at 07:22, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> I see a an alternative of:
> toilets:type=[flush,pit,chemical,bucket]
> 
> Thus we might have:
> 
> amenity=toilets
> toilets:type=pit
> drinking_water=yes
> fee=no


you can have pits with flush or without so this modification doesn't work. What 
are the benefits of the changes you propose?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[John Sturdy]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 6:22 AM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> Looking at the old proposal page for
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:pitlatrine
>
> I see a an alternative of:
> toilets:type=[flush,pit,chemical,bucket]
>
> Thus we might have:
>
> *amenity=toilets*
> *toilets:type=pit*
> *drinking_water=yes*
> *fee=no*
>
>
I prefer your alternative to the proposal page, although I think the
":type" is unnecessary, and toilets=pit would be better.

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[Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Looking at the old proposal page for
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:pitlatrine

I see a an alternative of:
toilets:type=[flush,pit,chemical,bucket]

Thus we might have:

*amenity=toilets*
*toilets:type=pit*
*drinking_water=yes*
*fee=no*


Any comments before I write up a proposal page along these lines?
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