Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:13:41 +0200
From: François Lacombe 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Le ven. 21 sept. 2018 à 09:17, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :


Ok .. thinking on it, if the word 'sewer' is confusing for 'native'
English speakers (and dictionaries) it may be best avoided within OSM.
So what word/s to use?
I would think storm_water and waste_water or stormwater and wastewater
might be reasonable values? However that does not name the pipe function.

Perhaps man_made=pipe would do? Then subtags for diameter, substance,
pressure etc.


We already have man_made=pipeline
It is only the nutshell, how the conduit is actually built, not what's
going inside. Substance=water is recommended and useful but not enough to
qualify the flow.
A pipeline may be opposed to tunnel. In the current situation it's
certainly a pipeline and not a tunnel.

[...]


I don't think "pipeline" is appropriate here.  My reasoning is the same 
that Martin Koppenhoefer expressed recently in another thread titled 
"Landuse for government offices?"  He said, "A lot of people have an 
adversity to making up new tags and prefer using established tags even 
if the meaning is not fitting perfectly for the thing they map, but this 
is harmful because it devalues/blurs the meaning of the established 
tag."  I think that fits here.  What I
 mean is, I think most people think of a pipeline as being 
pressurized.  If you include something under this heading that is not 
pressurized, I think it blurs the meaning of the tag "pipeline".  I 
think in this case a different tag is warranted.  If "sewer" is 
confusing, I like Warin's suggestion of man_made=pipe.


Mark

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[François Lacombe]

Le ven. 21 sept. 2018 à 09:17, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :

>
> Ok .. thinking on it, if the word 'sewer' is confusing for 'native'
> English speakers (and dictionaries) it may be best avoided within OSM.
> So what word/s to use?
> I would think storm_water and waste_water or stormwater and wastewater
> might be reasonable values? However that does not name the pipe function.
>
> Perhaps man_made=pipe would do? Then subtags for diameter, substance,
> pressure etc.
>

We already have man_made=pipeline
It is only the nutshell, how the conduit is actually built, not what's
going inside. Substance=water is recommended and useful but not enough to
qualify the flow.
A pipeline may be opposed to tunnel. In the current situation it's
certainly a pipeline and not a tunnel.

According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway#Values
waterway=drain is suitable for discharge of superfluous water, which rain
water actually is.
As waterway=canal, a drain is always free flowing in open air. For
pressurised water conduit, use waterway=pressurised (if intake is always
below water level in operation, in the catch basin)
Then usage=sewer or usage=discharge would be ok.

All the best

François
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Warin]

On 20/09/18 22:53, Warin wrote:

On 20/09/18 21:53, EthnicFood IsGreat wrote:



From: Jonathon Rossi 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:
 


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks everyone. Apologies in advance for the long reply.

@Graeme I see you tagged the node with
man_made=drain_outlet+substance=rainwater. In your example it makes 
sense
to map the underground pipe because you know exactly where it is, 
but I'd

hate for these to start rendering in the future and bits of incomplete
pipes (a few metres long) start showing up drawing over streets.

The wiki for man_made=pipeline
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dpipeline> says 
it is

meant for "major" pipelines, which these aren't really apply:

By using pipeline are we abusing that tag? Dictionary.com's 
definition of

pipeline also indicates that a network of pipes isn't a pipeline. I too
don't view the reticulated water network of pipes a pipeline, 
however there
would generally be a pipeline going from a water treatment plant to 
a water
reservoir/storage tank; and in the same way the network of sewerage 
drains
aren't a pipeline, but you could have a pressurised or gravity 
pipeline to

move sewage to a treatment plant.

Mark's suggestion to use man_made=sewer didn't sound right to me 
because I

always view sewers as for wastewater which must go to a treatment plant
before entering waterways. Dictionary.com seems to agree, the values 
for
manhole=* <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:manhole> also 
agree, this

OSM tagging proposal also agrees
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Utility_Schema>,
however Wikipedia seems to indicate some people refer to stormwater 
drains

as sewers too, this might be a location thing because I found some
indication that some cities have a combined waste and rain water drain
(these obviously won't directly connect to a waterway).
substance=rainwater;sewage works though.

[...]


FWIW, I worked in the highway construction business for 14 years in 
the US.  In the industry terminology where I was, a "pipeline" 
carrying wastewater to a treatment plant was termed a sanitary sewer, 
and a pipeline carrying stormwater (rainwater) was called a storm sewer.


Humm.. I have always take 'sewer' to mean grey water.
The uk Cambridge Dictionary agrees with me.
The uk Oxford Dictionary agrees with you, and give a reference backwards.

I'll have to do some more digging (err pun).  In general I go with the 
Oxford Dictionary.




Ok .. thinking on it, if the word 'sewer' is confusing for 'native' 
English speakers (and dictionaries) it may be best avoided within OSM.

So what word/s to use?
I would think storm_water and waste_water or stormwater and wastewater 
might be reasonable values? However that does not name the pipe function.


Perhaps man_made=pipe would do? Then subtags for diameter, substance, 
pressure etc.


-
A problem with man_made=pipeline is the description 'major' ... in what 
terms is it 'major'?





Where waste and storm water is combined then only the worst term should 
be used.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Robert Skedgell]

On 20/09/2018 13:53, Warin wrote:
>> FWIW, I worked in the highway construction business for 14 years in
>> the US.  In the industry terminology where I was, a "pipeline"
>> carrying wastewater to a treatment plant was termed a sanitary sewer,
>> and a pipeline carrying stormwater (rainwater) was called a storm sewer.
> 
> Humm.. I have always take 'sewer' to mean grey water.
> The uk Cambridge Dictionary agrees with me.
> The uk Oxford Dictionary agrees with you, and give a reference backwards.
> 
> I'll have to do some more digging (err pun).  In general I go with the
> Oxford Dictionary.

Just to make things slightly more confusing, there are a fair number of
(sometimes quite large) land drainage ditches in the east and south-east
of England where "Sewer" is part of the name. They don't fit the grey
water definition at all. e.g. 

-- 
Robert (rskedgell)


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Kevin]

If you're looking for a good term for the stormwater outlet, the
engineering term is "headwall" for the outlet and "catch basin" for the
inlet. I don't think either of these are  commonly used in osm.
"drain_outlet" and "drain_inlet" may be better terms and of more use
outside of stormwater infrastructure.  As for what connects the two; you
usually have a ditch, pipe, or stream. The wiki on waterways suggests that
all pipe flow is pressurized and therefore it should be waterway=drain.

https://www.surpriseaz.gov/DocumentCenter/View/1415/Common-Storm-Water-Structures

Kevin


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:03 PM, Jonathon Rossi  wrote:

> I've come across the desire to map a stormwater outlet at the beginning of
> a stream a few times now and have failed to find an appropriate tag to
> place on the node. These outlets are pretty common in residential areas
> where the stormwater pipes underneath the roads (obviously unmapped) direct
> their water to the lower streets and eventually enter naturally forming
> creeks that existed before the residential estate was even built.
>
> Is there something that is already commonly used that I've been unable to
> find?
>
> I've seen manhole=drain on the wiki, but that is the opposite end where
> surface water enters the stormwater system.
>
> Jono
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'll have to do some more digging (err pun).
>

Sounds like hard work.  I'd just go through the motions.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Warin]

On 20/09/18 21:53, EthnicFood IsGreat wrote:



From: Jonathon Rossi 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks everyone. Apologies in advance for the long reply.

@Graeme I see you tagged the node with
man_made=drain_outlet+substance=rainwater. In your example it makes 
sense
to map the underground pipe because you know exactly where it is, but 
I'd

hate for these to start rendering in the future and bits of incomplete
pipes (a few metres long) start showing up drawing over streets.

The wiki for man_made=pipeline
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dpipeline> says it is
meant for "major" pipelines, which these aren't really apply:

By using pipeline are we abusing that tag? Dictionary.com's 
definition of

pipeline also indicates that a network of pipes isn't a pipeline. I too
don't view the reticulated water network of pipes a pipeline, however 
there
would generally be a pipeline going from a water treatment plant to a 
water
reservoir/storage tank; and in the same way the network of sewerage 
drains
aren't a pipeline, but you could have a pressurised or gravity 
pipeline to

move sewage to a treatment plant.

Mark's suggestion to use man_made=sewer didn't sound right to me 
because I

always view sewers as for wastewater which must go to a treatment plant
before entering waterways. Dictionary.com seems to agree, the values for
manhole=* <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:manhole> also 
agree, this

OSM tagging proposal also agrees
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Utility_Schema>,
however Wikipedia seems to indicate some people refer to stormwater 
drains

as sewers too, this might be a location thing because I found some
indication that some cities have a combined waste and rain water drain
(these obviously won't directly connect to a waterway).
substance=rainwater;sewage works though.

[...]


FWIW, I worked in the highway construction business for 14 years in 
the US.  In the industry terminology where I was, a "pipeline" 
carrying wastewater to a treatment plant was termed a sanitary sewer, 
and a pipeline carrying stormwater (rainwater) was called a storm sewer.


Humm.. I have always take 'sewer' to mean grey water.
The uk Cambridge Dictionary agrees with me.
The uk Oxford Dictionary agrees with you, and give a reference backwards.

I'll have to do some more digging (err pun).  In general I go with the 
Oxford Dictionary.




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

From: Jonathon Rossi 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks everyone. Apologies in advance for the long reply.

@Graeme I see you tagged the node with
man_made=drain_outlet+substance=rainwater. In your example it makes sense
to map the underground pipe because you know exactly where it is, but I'd
hate for these to start rendering in the future and bits of incomplete
pipes (a few metres long) start showing up drawing over streets.

The wiki for man_made=pipeline
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dpipeline> says it is
meant for "major" pipelines, which these aren't really apply:

By using pipeline are we abusing that tag? Dictionary.com's definition of
pipeline also indicates that a network of pipes isn't a pipeline. I too
don't view the reticulated water network of pipes a pipeline, however there
would generally be a pipeline going from a water treatment plant to a water
reservoir/storage tank; and in the same way the network of sewerage drains
aren't a pipeline, but you could have a pressurised or gravity pipeline to
move sewage to a treatment plant.

Mark's suggestion to use man_made=sewer didn't sound right to me because I
always view sewers as for wastewater which must go to a treatment plant
before entering waterways. Dictionary.com seems to agree, the values for
manhole=* <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:manhole> also agree, this
OSM tagging proposal also agrees
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Utility_Schema>,
however Wikipedia seems to indicate some people refer to stormwater drains
as sewers too, this might be a location thing because I found some
indication that some cities have a combined waste and rain water drain
(these obviously won't directly connect to a waterway).
substance=rainwater;sewage works though.

[...]


FWIW, I worked in the highway construction business for 14 years in the 
US.  In the industry terminology where I was, a "pipeline" carrying 
wastewater to a treatment plant was termed a sanitary sewer, and a 
pipeline carrying stormwater (rainwater) was called a storm sewer.


Mark

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Warin]

On 20/09/18 11:26, EthnicFood IsGreat wrote:



Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:32:54 +1000
From: Jonathon Rossi 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks Graeme.



I did this:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838#map=19/-28.07783/153.42664 


for one stormwater drain nearby.


I don't quite understand the way extending to the north in your example
tagged just man_made=yes and surface=grass, is that the underground pipe
joining to the rest of the network?

Would that work for your purposes?
Regarding the node on the end, yes I think it should work. I always 
viewed
man_made=pipeline for legit big pressurised pipelines but I can't see 
any

harm using it for stormwater drains especially that some get really big.

man_made=pipeline
location=underground
substance=rainwater

The wiki page says man_made=pipeline shouldn't be applied to nodes but
there are already nearly 4000 so that can change, or if I have a decent
idea which way the underground pipes go (easy for the big ones) just 
map a

short way.

Thinking about how this would apply to other waterways I've mapped, I
currently map the streams or drains that pass under roads which 
rainwater

passes through like below, these are quite similar but with a completely
different tagging scheme.

waterway=drain or stream
tunnel=culvert
layer=-1

Do we use waterway=* where it is a naturally occurring stream but humans
earthfilled the location with a concrete culvert and put a road over the
top but that is still part of the earth's waterways of the creek system.
Can't be true because waterway=drain is for man made waterways.

This tagging also appears valid for a big stormwater drain where you can
walk into it:

waterway=drain
tunnel=flooded
location=underground
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tunnel%3Dflooded)

Unfortunately it doesn't render in any way, so there's nothing 
showing on

the map to indicate that there's anything there, until you go into edit
mode :-(


I'm not too worried about rendering. In the past I've left a note on the
first node because these drain outlets usually can't be seen from aerial
imagery and many times the creek directly where it pours doesn't even 
look

like a creek from aerial imagery, so the intention was to capture the
information to ensure armchair mappers don't "fix" the creek.

As usual each time I post on the mailing list it opens a can of worms 
and I

learn too much about all the different possible tags :).
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20180919/43b9cc74/attachment-0001.html>


--



I think what you are mapping would more properly be called a storm 
sewer, not a pipeline.  I think of a pipeline as carrying contents 
under pressure, whereas a storm sewer is gravity-fed.  Therefore I 
think a better tag would be man_made=sewer.


There are differences between drinking water, storm water and sewer water!
You do not want sewer water discharging directly into a local river, 
where as storm water is much more acceptable.
Please don't mix the terms as has been done above, 'storm sewer' is not 
a term that should be used.


If a pipeline is pressured or not makes little difference to the pipe. 
If you want you can specify the pressure in the pipeline using the tag 
pressure=* .. the wiki says to use bar .. so pressure=1 would be about 
atmospheric pressure i.e. not pressurised.




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 5:08 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Thinking about how this would apply to other waterways I've mapped, I
>> currently map the streams or drains that pass under roads which rainwater
>> passes through like below, these are quite similar but with a completely
>> different tagging scheme.
>>
>> waterway=drain or stream
>> tunnel=culvert
>> layer=-1
>>
>> Do we use waterway=* where it is a naturally occurring stream but humans
>> earthfilled the location with a concrete culvert and put a road over the
>> top but that is still part of the earth's waterways of the creek system.
>> Can't be true because waterway=drain is for man made waterways.
>>
>
> That's the way I've always done it as well! To my mind, a stream running
> through a culvert is still a natural waterway that we've put a lid over -
> if it was a man-made dug out channel, that would make it a drain.
>

I generally consider a drain to be basically a man-made drainage ditch,
otherwise a lot of creeks in the Tulsa Area and...really the entire length
of the Los Angeles River, would be a drain, even though they're basically
natural streams with concrete-fortified banks.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Jonathon Rossi]

Thanks everyone. Apologies in advance for the long reply.

@Graeme I see you tagged the node with
man_made=drain_outlet+substance=rainwater. In your example it makes sense
to map the underground pipe because you know exactly where it is, but I'd
hate for these to start rendering in the future and bits of incomplete
pipes (a few metres long) start showing up drawing over streets.

The wiki for man_made=pipeline
 says it is
meant for "major" pipelines, which these aren't really apply:

By using pipeline are we abusing that tag? Dictionary.com's definition of
pipeline also indicates that a network of pipes isn't a pipeline. I too
don't view the reticulated water network of pipes a pipeline, however there
would generally be a pipeline going from a water treatment plant to a water
reservoir/storage tank; and in the same way the network of sewerage drains
aren't a pipeline, but you could have a pressurised or gravity pipeline to
move sewage to a treatment plant.

Mark's suggestion to use man_made=sewer didn't sound right to me because I
always view sewers as for wastewater which must go to a treatment plant
before entering waterways. Dictionary.com seems to agree, the values for
manhole=*  also agree, this
OSM tagging proposal also agrees
,
however Wikipedia seems to indicate some people refer to stormwater drains
as sewers too, this might be a location thing because I found some
indication that some cities have a combined waste and rain water drain
(these obviously won't directly connect to a waterway).
substance=rainwater;sewage works though.

There is 158 uses of man_made=storm_drain (99% of them on nodes), and most
in North Lakes (just north of Brisbane, Australia), however they've used
that tag rather than manhole=drain. It isn't exactly wrong that they used
that tag on the surface grate because the drain is technically there too,
just as it is at the outlet. (Off topic: but that residential estate is so
well mapped; every tree, lightpole, drain, kerb, driveway, bit of grass all
mapped, looks so great rendered!
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-27.21343/153.02634).

I think there is no need to use man_made=drain_outlet because the outlet is
just part of the drain (the smaller ones generally have no extra concrete
to hold earth back), so just use man_made=drain on the node or map a way
(which can join to the waterway=*), however I'd use manhole=drain for
grates on the road surface because they also act as manholes providing
access into the drain. I know some of the large stormwater drains also have
barriers  inside to prevent humans entering, they could be mapped as nodes
on the way too.

I've mapped pump stations for the reticulated water network before (because
they are usually small buildings or fenced off equipment on the surface)
but not the underground pipes, I do see value in mapping the pipelines
especially when they are visible (e.g. passing next to a bridge over a
creek) but wouldn't map the underground network around streets as you'd
have no idea where it went.

If I went with man_made=drain, at what point would one of those drains be
big enough to be a man_made=pipeline? Is a big drain flowing into a big
river (e.g. Brisbane River) that you could stand up inside a pipeline?
Maybe yes, maybe no.

Is a pipeline for delivering a substance, while a drain for taking a
substance away? Is that a distinction that even needs to be made?

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:04 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Thanks Tijmin & Andrew - name deleted! :-) Thought it should have
> something to explain the open space between 2 houses:
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0775238,153.4261968,3a,75y,192.84h,72.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spFpy3s9A1cXKkiPow16w2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656,
> but having now read the "No name" policy can see that's wrong. Have also
> changed the node & pipeline details.
>
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 17:34, Jonathon Rossi  wrote:
>
>> I don't quite understand the way extending to the north in your example
>> tagged just man_made=yes and surface=grass, is that the underground pipe
>> joining to the rest of the network?
>>
>
> That's it - there's a surface drain & manholes on the street, with the
> visible pipe going into the lake, so I marked the pipeline in back to the
> street. As above, I've ow changed the tagging so that the pipeline is
> marked through the easement, with an outlet at the lake edge.
>
>
>> Thinking about how this would apply to other waterways I've mapped, I
>> currently map the streams or drains that pass under roads which rainwater
>> passes through like below, these are quite similar but with a completely
>> different tagging scheme.
>>
>> waterway=drain or stream
>> tunnel=culvert
>> layer=-1
>>
>> Do we use waterway=* where it is a naturally occurring stream but humans
>> earthfilled the location with a 

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:15:37 +1000
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
To: OSM Tag 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 13:04, Jonathon Rossi  wrote:


I've come across the desire to map a stormwater outlet at the beginning of
a stream a few times now and have failed to find an appropriate tag to
place on the node.


Hi Jono

I did this:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838#map=19/-28.07783/153.42664
for one stormwater drain nearby.

Would that work for your purposes?

Unfortunately it doesn't render in any way, so there's nothing showing on
the map to indicate that there's anything there, until you go into edit
mode :-(

Thanks

Graeme
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20180919/77e0bdeb/attachment-0001.html>

--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:04:12 +1000
From: Andrew Harvey 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
    
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I agree with https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838

location=underground
man_made=pipeline
substance=rainwater

I think it's okay to place this on a node if you don't know the
location the pipeline goes underground, even if the tags were meant
for ways.

Personally I would just add a way a few meters long to the end of the
stream and tag that, instead of a node.

But I'd omit the name unless it has one, "Stormwater easement" is more
a description than a name.
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 16:16, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:



On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 13:04, Jonathon Rossi  wrote:

I've come across the desire to map a stormwater outlet at the beginning of a 
stream a few times now and have failed to find an appropriate tag to place on 
the node.


Hi Jono

I did this: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838#map=19/-28.07783/153.42664 for 
one stormwater drain nearby.

Would that work for your purposes?

Unfortunately it doesn't render in any way, so there's nothing showing on the 
map to indicate that there's anything there, until you go into edit mode :-(

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



--

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:32:54 +1000
From: Jonathon Rossi 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
    
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks Graeme.



I did this:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838#map=19/-28.07783/153.42664
for one stormwater drain nearby.


I don't quite understand the way extending to the north in your example
tagged just man_made=yes and surface=grass, is that the underground pipe
joining to the rest of the network?

Would that work for your purposes?
Regarding the node on the end, yes I think it should work. I always viewed
man_made=pipeline for legit big pressurised pipelines but I can't see any
harm using it for stormwater drains especially that some get really big.

man_made=pipeline
location=underground
substance=rainwater

The wiki page says man_made=pipeline shouldn't be applied to nodes but
there are already nearly 4000 so that can change, or if I have a decent
idea which way the underground pipes go (easy for the big ones) just map a
short way.

Thinking about how this would apply to other waterways I've mapped, I
currently map the streams or drains that pass under roads which rainwater
passes through like below, these are quite similar but with a completely
different tagging scheme.

waterway=drain or stream
tunnel=culvert
layer=-1

Do we use waterway=* where it is a naturally occurring stream but humans
earthfilled the location with a concrete culvert and put a road over the
top but that is still part of the earth's waterways of the creek system.
Can't be true because waterway=drain is for man made waterways.

This tagging also appears valid for a big stormwater drain where you can
walk into it:

waterway=drain
tunnel=flooded
location=underground
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tunnel%3Dflooded)

Unfortunately it doesn't render in any way, so there's nothing showing on

the map to indicate that there's anything there, until you go into edit
mode :-(


I'm not too worried about rendering. In the past I've left a note on the
first node because these drain outlets usually can't be seen from aerial
imagery and many times the creek directly where it pours doesn't even look
like a creek from aerial imagery, so the intention was to capture the
information to ensure armchair mappers don't "fix" the creek.

As usual each time I

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks Tijmin & Andrew - name deleted! :-) Thought it should have something
to explain the open space between 2 houses:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0775238,153.4261968,3a,75y,192.84h,72.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spFpy3s9A1cXKkiPow16w2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656,
but having now read the "No name" policy can see that's wrong. Have also
changed the node & pipeline details.

On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 17:34, Jonathon Rossi  wrote:

> I don't quite understand the way extending to the north in your example
> tagged just man_made=yes and surface=grass, is that the underground pipe
> joining to the rest of the network?
>

That's it - there's a surface drain & manholes on the street, with the
visible pipe going into the lake, so I marked the pipeline in back to the
street. As above, I've ow changed the tagging so that the pipeline is
marked through the easement, with an outlet at the lake edge.


> Thinking about how this would apply to other waterways I've mapped, I
> currently map the streams or drains that pass under roads which rainwater
> passes through like below, these are quite similar but with a completely
> different tagging scheme.
>
> waterway=drain or stream
> tunnel=culvert
> layer=-1
>
> Do we use waterway=* where it is a naturally occurring stream but humans
> earthfilled the location with a concrete culvert and put a road over the
> top but that is still part of the earth's waterways of the creek system.
> Can't be true because waterway=drain is for man made waterways.
>

That's the way I've always done it as well! To my mind, a stream running
through a culvert is still a natural waterway that we've put a lid over -
if it was a man-made dug out channel, that would make it a drain.

This tagging also appears valid for a big stormwater drain where you can
> walk into it:
>
> waterway=drain
> tunnel=flooded
>

I'd *strongly* recommend that you don't try walking into tunnels that are
flooded! - you're going to get very wet & the consequences could be bad :-)

As usual each time I post on the mailing list it opens a can of worms and I
> learn too much about all the different possible tags :).
>

Welcome to the Club - at least it's not just me! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Jonathon Rossi]

Thanks Graeme.


> I did this:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838#map=19/-28.07783/153.42664
> for one stormwater drain nearby.
>

I don't quite understand the way extending to the north in your example
tagged just man_made=yes and surface=grass, is that the underground pipe
joining to the rest of the network?

Would that work for your purposes?
>

Regarding the node on the end, yes I think it should work. I always viewed
man_made=pipeline for legit big pressurised pipelines but I can't see any
harm using it for stormwater drains especially that some get really big.

man_made=pipeline
location=underground
substance=rainwater

The wiki page says man_made=pipeline shouldn't be applied to nodes but
there are already nearly 4000 so that can change, or if I have a decent
idea which way the underground pipes go (easy for the big ones) just map a
short way.

Thinking about how this would apply to other waterways I've mapped, I
currently map the streams or drains that pass under roads which rainwater
passes through like below, these are quite similar but with a completely
different tagging scheme.

waterway=drain or stream
tunnel=culvert
layer=-1

Do we use waterway=* where it is a naturally occurring stream but humans
earthfilled the location with a concrete culvert and put a road over the
top but that is still part of the earth's waterways of the creek system.
Can't be true because waterway=drain is for man made waterways.

This tagging also appears valid for a big stormwater drain where you can
walk into it:

waterway=drain
tunnel=flooded
location=underground
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tunnel%3Dflooded)

Unfortunately it doesn't render in any way, so there's nothing showing on
> the map to indicate that there's anything there, until you go into edit
> mode :-(
>

I'm not too worried about rendering. In the past I've left a note on the
first node because these drain outlets usually can't be seen from aerial
imagery and many times the creek directly where it pours doesn't even look
like a creek from aerial imagery, so the intention was to capture the
information to ensure armchair mappers don't "fix" the creek.

As usual each time I post on the mailing list it opens a can of worms and I
learn too much about all the different possible tags :).
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Andrew Harvey]

I agree with https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838

location=underground
man_made=pipeline
substance=rainwater

I think it's okay to place this on a node if you don't know the
location the pipeline goes underground, even if the tags were meant
for ways.

Personally I would just add a way a few meters long to the end of the
stream and tag that, instead of a node.

But I'd omit the name unless it has one, "Stormwater easement" is more
a description than a name.
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 16:16, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 13:04, Jonathon Rossi  wrote:
>>
>> I've come across the desire to map a stormwater outlet at the beginning of a 
>> stream a few times now and have failed to find an appropriate tag to place 
>> on the node.
>
>
> Hi Jono
>
> I did this: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838#map=19/-28.07783/153.42664 for 
> one stormwater drain nearby.
>
> Would that work for your purposes?
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't render in any way, so there's nothing showing on the 
> map to indicate that there's anything there, until you go into edit mode :-(
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 13:04, Jonathon Rossi  wrote:

> I've come across the desire to map a stormwater outlet at the beginning of
> a stream a few times now and have failed to find an appropriate tag to
> place on the node.
>

Hi Jono

I did this:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5213660838#map=19/-28.07783/153.42664
for one stormwater drain nearby.

Would that work for your purposes?

Unfortunately it doesn't render in any way, so there's nothing showing on
the map to indicate that there's anything there, until you go into edit
mode :-(

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Stormwater outlet into stream

[Jonathon Rossi]

I've come across the desire to map a stormwater outlet at the beginning of
a stream a few times now and have failed to find an appropriate tag to
place on the node. These outlets are pretty common in residential areas
where the stormwater pipes underneath the roads (obviously unmapped) direct
their water to the lower streets and eventually enter naturally forming
creeks that existed before the residential estate was even built.

Is there something that is already commonly used that I've been unable to
find?

I've seen manhole=drain on the wiki, but that is the opposite end where
surface water enters the stormwater system.

Jono
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging