Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for

[Warin]

On 22/5/23 22:46, Marc_marc wrote:

Le 15.05.23 à 18:47, ro...@onwheelsapp.com a écrit :

Hi everyone,

So if I understand correct most parking spaces are mapped as polygons?


yes
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=parking_space

I don't see the problem to add a width and length tag to a 
parking_space node,


there is no problem except to be aware that this is the least common 
schema and the one that gives the least information, and that 
therefore any contributor can convert a width=A length=B into a 
surface object having this dimension and which will also give a 
position of this object in relation to the others (does the parking 
space touch the neighbouring parking_space, does it touch a kerb, etc)


because this is more detailed info about the dimensions of a parking 
space,

that is actually measured by people on site with a measure tape.
the polygon data is not accurate enough to really use for our app.


I don't understand this argument despite the fact that to repeat it :
a node width=A length=B is not more precise than a polygon
with thoses dimensions



The polygon gives the orientation - could be parallel to the road or at 
some angle.


I prefer the polygon, more trouble to map but you can use imagery to get 
it.





Are there other apps that add info about parking places as polygons and
extract dimension info from the polygon data?


most map style, including osm-carto (the main style on osm.org)






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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for

[Marc_marc]

Le 15.05.23 à 18:47, ro...@onwheelsapp.com a écrit :

Hi everyone,

So if I understand correct most parking spaces are mapped as polygons?


yes
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=parking_space

I don't see the problem to add a width and length tag to 
a parking_space node,


there is no problem except to be aware that this is the least common 
schema and the one that gives the least information, and that therefore 
any contributor can convert a width=A length=B into a surface object 
having this dimension and which will also give a position of this object 
in relation to the others (does the parking space touch the neighbouring 
parking_space, does it touch a kerb, etc)



because this is more detailed info about the dimensions of a parking space,
that is actually measured by people on site with a measure tape.
the polygon data is not accurate enough to really use for our app.


I don't understand this argument despite the fact that to repeat it :
a node width=A length=B is not more precise than a polygon
with thoses dimensions


Are there other apps that add info about parking places as polygons and
extract dimension info from the polygon data?


most map style, including osm-carto (the main style on osm.org)




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[Yves via Tagging]

I guess that if I'd want to inform my user about a parking space width, I'll 
stick to a specific width=* tag, and not rely on a hundredth "good enough" 
polygon geometry mapped at 3 in the morning.
At least I'm sure that if the mapper care enough to estimate a width, it's not 
completely wrong.

Regards,
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for

[robin]

Hi everyone,

So if I understand correct most parking spaces are mapped as polygons?
For the moment our app can only use node tags and also add new info as a
node tag.
I don't see the problem to add a width and length tag to a parking_space
node,
because this is more detailed info about the dimensions of a parking space,
that is
actually measured by people on site with a measure tape. I know it's kind
off double
info, but the polygon data is not accurate enough to really use for our app.
If other mappers would add these width and length tags not correctly our
users will
verify this info and correct it if not accurate. 

Are there other apps that add info about parking places as polygons and
extract dimension
info from the polygon data?

For us it would be easy to make a node parking_space and add the tags width=
and length=.
Then we have the exact location of the parking place in our app. An example
of the info we
would add to this node:

amenity=parking_space
wheelchair=yes
capacity:disabled=
orientation=
width=
length=
surface=



Robin Julien
On Wheels










-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org  
Verzonden: zondag 14 mei 2023 20:37
Aan: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Tagging Digest, Vol 164, Issue 10

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: office=healthcare deprecated or bad documentation ?
  (Andy Townsend)
   2. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
  wheelchair users (Tobias Knerr)
   3. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
  wheelchair users (Yves)
   4. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
  wheelchair users (Alan Mackie)
   5. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
  wheelchair users (Tobias Knerr)
   6. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
  wheelchair users (Marc_marc)


--

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 11:34:16 +0100
From: Andy Townsend 
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] office=healthcare deprecated or bad
documentation ?
Message-ID: <2ff04bf3-1315-2a29-e415-aea306f12...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 12/05/2023 21:16, Marc_marc wrote:
> Hello,
>
> in 2020, the wiki was changed [|] for this tag (I don't remeber that 
> we talk about it, no link in the comment of the change)
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:office%3Dhealthca
> re=prev=2062630
>
See also discussion at
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/deprecated-features-reason/99048

It's been changed back, and I asked why someone thought that the tag was
"discouraged" (which might have been part of the original problem).

Best Regards,

Andy





--

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 17:15:33 +0200
From: Tobias Knerr 
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking
spaces for wheelchair users
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:
> why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?

Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% of
amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This makes it
possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple calculations and
it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.



--

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 19:59:22 +0200
From: Yves 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
,  Tobias Knerr ,
    tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking
spaces for wheelchair users
Message-ID: <3909ce57-1aef-45f3-a439-1d23ffa2a...@mailbox.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8



Le 14 mai 2023 17:15:33 GMT+02:00, Tobias Knerr  a
?crit?:
>On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:
>> why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?
>
>Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% of
amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This makes it
possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple calculations and
it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.
>
These two suggestions made me laugh a bit: every

Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[Marc_marc]

Le 14.05.23 à 19:59, Yves via Tagging a écrit :

everybody is not super accurate in drawing polygons


indeed, and most tools doesn't allow to request a polygon with a given 
lenght/width



I doubt a lot of mappers go trough a complete parking lot a measuring tape in 
their hands.
On the contrary, estimating a width from one's car


I don't understand this argument: the question is not to have the 
measurement (with a laser, with satellite imagery, by estimating

by comparison with his car)
the question is how to introduce this measure in osm with
3 possible choices :
either on a parent object (for example amenity=parking with 
parking_space:width parking_space:lenght) but that does not say

where the space is)
or an amenity=parking_space node with width and lenght: compared
to the previous solution, we gain the position of the space (and
anyone on the spot can obviously tell where he is when he parks
his vehicle)
or an amenity=parking_space polygon: compared to the previous
solution, we gain the surface and its orientation in relation
to the other objects.


I'd say yes to such a tag.
I have nothing against the tag, it would simply be necessary for the 
person/application in question to know that it is only one of the 3 
possible methods and that, out of the 3, it is the one that gives

the least information. so :
- if they have the possibility to make a method giving more
information, they might as well do it (at least a node 
amenity=parking_space)

- if osm has the information in the form of area, it shouldn't come
to the point of saying "no, it must be in the form of 
parking_space:width" and convert or ignore the precise methods

in favour of the less precise one
and if someone were to convert a parking_space:witdh 
parking_space:lenght to a surface of this size, the application

would not have to regress or worse, someone would have to revert
because the application does not handle it in this form

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[Tobias Knerr]

On 14.05.23 at 19:59 Yves wrote:

everybody is not super accurate in drawing polygons, imagery has a resolution 
and I doubt a lot of mappers go trough a complete parking lot a measuring tape 
in their hands.


Sure, mappers drawing polygons very rarely use measuring tape.

The same is true for mappers adding tags.

I'd wager the vast majority of width values currently in the OSM 
database are estimates or – at best and in rarer cases – rough 
measurements from a phone app.


It's obvious that the dimensions of polygons in OSM are not reliable. 
But unless you have a plan to prevent mappers from entering guesses or 
insufficiently precise measurements into width tags for parking spaces 
(even while using those sources for width tags on all sorts of other 
objects is accepted practice and commonplace), I doubt that you will 
consistently achieve the desired accuracy by encouraging people to add 
width tags to parking spaces. _Maybe_ it will work as long as no one 
except accessibility-focused apps uses this tag and therefore mappers 
overwhelmingly keep that particular use case in mind when adding the 
tags, but that seems fragile.



Also, on an unrelated note, I'm curious about the intended definition of 
width and length for non-rectangular parking spaces.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[Alan Mackie]

On Sun, 14 May 2023 at 19:04, Yves via Tagging 
wrote:

>
>
> Le 14 mai 2023 17:15:33 GMT+02:00, Tobias Knerr  a
> écrit :
> >On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:
> >> why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?
> >
> >Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% of
> amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This makes
> it possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple calculations
> and it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.
> >
> These two suggestions made me laugh a bit: everybody is not super accurate
> in drawing polygons, imagery has a resolution and I doubt a lot of mappers
> go trough a complete parking lot a measuring tape in their hands.
> On the contrary, estimating a width from one's car when you happen to
> really need to know is probably not far-fetched.
>
StreetComplete recently split their measuring tool out into its own
dedicated app recently so that is also an option if you're on Android:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.westnordost.streetmeasure

I imagine iOS has similar tools with its AR stuff.
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[Yves via Tagging]

Le 14 mai 2023 17:15:33 GMT+02:00, Tobias Knerr  a écrit :
>On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:
>> why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?
>
>Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% of 
>amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This makes it 
>possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple calculations and 
>it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.
>
These two suggestions made me laugh a bit: everybody is not super accurate in 
drawing polygons, imagery has a resolution and I doubt a lot of mappers go 
trough a complete parking lot a measuring tape in their hands. 
On the contrary, estimating a width from one's car when you happen to really 
need to know is probably not far-fetched. 
I'd say yes to such a tag. 
Regards, 
Yves 

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[Tobias Knerr]

On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:

why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?


Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% 
of amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This 
makes it possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple 
calculations and it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

thanks forr splitting topic by thread.

Le 13.05.23 à 17:03, ro...@onwheelsapp.com a écrit :

*_Amenity=parking, amenity=parking=space_*

We want to propose some new tags to add to parking spaces:

  * Parking_space:width
  * Parking_space:length


without the upper letter, that's a standard combination
you want to add this on a amenity=parking ?

because if someone is measuring it,
why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?
more than one million places already have their dimensions filled in

Regards,
Marc



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[Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for wheelchair users

[robin]

Amenity=parking, amenity=parking=space

 

We want to propose some new tags to add to parking spaces:

 

*   Parking_space:width
*   Parking_space:length

 

In our app we are using a parking profile where wheelchair users can set
their width and length of their car.

Not every disabled parking space has the same dimensions and it is important
to give this information to wheelchair users.

We also use this information to show cities to improve the disabled parking
spaces. We already mapped the dimensions of 

more then 3000 parking spaces.

 

 

 

 

Met vriendelijke groeten

 Robin Julien

Operationeel verantwoordelijke, architect

   ro...@onwheelsapp.com
tel: 0497 65 48 50

 

 



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