Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 2:06 AM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.comwrote: and where did you read the let's put all available tags on all object? But your message suggests that the editors should fill in the defaults for us. The result is the same: each way will carry tons of properties which is nice for tools as they will not have to preprocess anything but is bad for human readability. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Alan Mintz wrote: 1. How should one tag suggested speeds (usually around curves) like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MUTCD_W1-4.svg with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Advisory_Curve_Speed_English_25.svg ? Should I tag them as maxspeed=*? I can see being cited for exceeding it according to the blanket safe speed provisions in some vehicle codes[1]. Don't. They're meant to be a driving aid, but aren't a fast rule (or they'd be on a white sign, not a yellow one). nothing in wiki and osmdoc has a view occurrences of advisory_speed= makes sense and is self explaining In CA, the standard speed limit on freeways is 65mph normally, but 55mph for trucks and towing/towed vehicles. This results in 9 tags(!), providing more reason for some sort of scheme like maxspeed=freeway. no please no more tags with fuzzy implicit meaning. this will create complete confusion and requires evaluation of the state polygons. how can a regular mapper and simple mapping tools evaluate such a tag in correct way. an average newbie mapper should be able to understand a tag without reading tons of docu. Josm, Potlatch support templates and could fill in the default values to make mapping easy. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.comwrote: an average newbie mapper should be able to understand a tag without reading tons of docu. Josm, Potlatch support templates and could fill in the default values to make mapping easy. I'm really irritated by such remarks. Your are also maybe one of the is_in tag supporters because, hey, how can a simple tool find if an element is inside a polygone or not. Asking people to put on all roads the ten or twenty attributs making everyone happy like maxpeed, minspeed, averagespeed, recommended_speed, blind_in_one_eye_drivers_speed, width, noexit, maxheight is simply unrealistic, makes perhaps some lazy developers happy but is definitely not making mapping easy. Let the software do the boring and repetitive work for humans and not the opposite. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
Randy wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: The school zone ends where the next speed zone starts. I'm not sure what FHWA's thinking was with the End School Zone sign (what about traffic that doesn't remember what the previous speed zone was because they turned into the school zone at a midpoint?). In Texas, I think the End School Zone sign does serve a separate legal purpose, beyond establishing the previous speed zone. Use of cell phones while driving is prohibited in school zones. (I think we are allowed to run over each other due to lack of attention in other areas.) As a general rule, a speed zone sign will be found within 50-100 yards of the end of a school zone. All the more reason to omit the redundant End School Zone sign, IMO; drivers should be focued on the task at hand at all times that they are driving, not just in school zones. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Anthony wrote: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: The school zone ends where the next speed zone starts. Hmm, I just checked a school zone near my house and I don't think that's correct. The 35 Mph sign comes before for the End School Zone sign. Do you have any source for that? Yeah, the US Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices. http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part7/fig7b-03_longdesc.htm That's the 2003 edition. The 2009 edition removes that option. See for example http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part7/fig7b_05_longdesc.htm I thought school zones were designated by statute, not by sign. The signs are just there to remind people of the statute. The signs themselves do have consistency standards at the national level. Placing another speed limit sign before an end school zone sign suggests your local traffic engineer either can't read a manual or takes no pride in his job. Yeah, whoever put that sign up there screwed up big time. Still, for mapping purposes we should map the actual school zone. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
Alan Mintz wrote: 1. How should one tag suggested speeds (usually around curves) like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MUTCD_W1-4.svg with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Advisory_Curve_Speed_English_25.svg ? Should I tag them as maxspeed=*? I can see being cited for exceeding it according to the blanket safe speed provisions in some vehicle codes[1]. Don't. They're meant to be a driving aid, but aren't a fast rule (or they'd be on a white sign, not a yellow one). 2. I've been tagging 25 mph school zones (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/SchoolZone-SpeedLimitSignAndLight.JPG) as maxspeed:children_present=25 mph. Can someone comment on where such zones end (I realize this may, again, be jurisdiction-dependent)? I sometimes, but not always, see an End School Zone sign (should I tag these, and how?). The school zone ends where the next speed zone starts. I'm not sure what FHWA's thinking was with the End School Zone sign (what about traffic that doesn't remember what the previous speed zone was because they turned into the school zone at a midpoint?). 6. For separate limits for towing/towed vehicles, I'm using: maxspeed:towing=* source:maxspeed_towing=* source_ref:maxspeed_towing=* In CA, the standard speed limit on freeways is 65mph normally, but 55mph for trucks and towing/towed vehicles. This results in 9 tags(!), providing more reason for some sort of scheme like maxspeed=freeway. I'm almost certain the US considers RVs and all vehicles pulling trailers to be trucks for the purposes of simplifying highway signs. [1]That is, holding that the sign states what is taken to be the prima facie safe speed. Any traffic court judges here? How about a licensed traffic controller? Does that count? If so, I am one... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: 1. How should one tag suggested speeds (usually around curves) like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MUTCD_W1-4.svg with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Advisory_Curve_Speed_English_25.svg ? Should I tag them as maxspeed=*? I can see being cited for exceeding it according to the blanket safe speed provisions in some vehicle codes[1]. There's a separate tag for that: recommended_speed=* (snip) 8. In rural areas especially, there is often confusion between county records, existing databases (e.g. TIGER, TeleAtlas), and posted signs, as to what portion of a road is considered private. This is an area where I believe OSM and actual in-person surveying has the potential for great value over other maps. I'd like to create a node where I first see a No Trespassing sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No_trespassing_sign.jpg). Should I tag the node access=private [+source=* +source_ref=*]? I'll note that JOSM has an icon for access=no, but not access=private. I can then tag the way with source:access=* +source_ref:access=*. I don't think that's a good idea. The no trespassing sign does not mean you may not be (exactly) here but you may not go beyond this point. The access tag thus should be on the way beyond the sign, in my opinion. -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm not sure what FHWA's thinking was with the End School Zone sign (what about traffic that doesn't remember what the previous speed zone was because they turned into the school zone at a midpoint?). Same thing they would have done if there ws no school zone in the first place. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
Roy Wallace wrote: On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: Several issues with relation to speed limits: 1. How should one tag suggested speeds (usually around curves) ... ... Should I tag them as maxspeed=*? The wiki says maxspeed is for the maximum speed that is allowed (i.e. allowed, not suggested). I'd be in favour of proposing a new tag, like maybe maxspeed:suggested, or suggestedmaxspeed. The official term is advisory speed. I'd prefer the *section of private way* to be marked as such using access=private. Yeah, let's not get confusing with noding out signage representing abstract information when we can just map the actual abstract information. ;o) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: The school zone ends where the next speed zone starts. Hmm, I just checked a school zone near my house and I don't think that's correct. The 35 Mph sign comes before for the End School Zone sign. Do you have any source for that? I thought school zones were designated by statute, not by sign. The signs are just there to remind people of the statute. I'm not sure what FHWA's thinking was with the End School Zone sign (what about traffic that doesn't remember what the previous speed zone was because they turned into the school zone at a midpoint?). What about traffic that turns in a school zone when it's not school hours? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On 27 February 2010 08:32, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: 2. I've been tagging 25 mph school zones (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/SchoolZone-SpeedLimitSignAndLight.JPG) as maxspeed:children_present=25 mph. Can someone comment on where such zones end (I realize this may, again, be jurisdiction-dependent)? I sometimes, but not always, see an End School Zone sign (should I tag these, and how?). I wrote this page a while ago: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:restriction%3Dschool_zone#Examples I've just updated it to make it more generic, but by making it more generic it will be interesting to see how multiple restrictions could be tagged. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US Speed Limits, truck routes, bike routes, access
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: Several issues with relation to speed limits: 1. How should one tag suggested speeds (usually around curves) ... ... Should I tag them as maxspeed=*? The wiki says maxspeed is for the maximum speed that is allowed (i.e. allowed, not suggested). I'd be in favour of proposing a new tag, like maybe maxspeed:suggested, or suggestedmaxspeed. maxspeed:children_present=25 mph source:maxspeed_children_present=survey;image ... I changed the : to _, not being sure if we want to deal with multiple levels of children. I would prefer source:maxspeed:children_present, i.e. keep it in the form: source:key name. I expect this would be easier to parse. In CA, the standard speed limit on freeways is 65mph normally, but 55mph for trucks and towing/towed vehicles. This results in 9 tags(!), providing more reason for some sort of scheme like maxspeed=freeway. Are these standard speed limits verifiable (i.e. marked on-the-ground?) If so, then 9 tags is fine - I don't see this as a reason to support the introduction of a *less explicit* scheme. ... I'd like to create a node where I first see a No Trespassing sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No_trespassing_sign.jpg). Should I tag the node access=private [+source=* +source_ref=*]? I don't think so. What does the node represent - the sign? If so, tagging the node in this way seems to mean the public are not allowed to use *this sign*. :P Tagging a node with access=* does, however, make sense for a gate (node). If you want to mark the presence of the sign, how about traffic_sign=*? (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign) ... I can then tag the way with source:access=* +source_ref:access=*. I'd prefer the *section of private way* to be marked as such using access=private. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
