Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:12 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: I am not sure why it was suddenly changed (today) from unsuitable to discouraged, but Unsuitable for HGVs is seen frequently in the UK. To my understanding there is a difference between the semantics of unsuitable and discouraged, the former being a simple statement of (official) opinion and the latter indicating that active measures have been taken to decrease its occurrence. In any case it might not be legally enforceable, but if you are shown to have ignored the official warning it may affect your position if it came to an incident (insurance claim). Not sure either. I know there's similar signs in the US (in Oregon, 'Travel at your own risk, emergency and rescue services not available next xx miles' and '4 wheel drive with low range strongly recommended' are two I've seen; though one that's clearly bicycle=no, foot=no is 'Bicycles and pedestrians prohibited; no water or shelter next xx miles, YOU WILL DIE' is a common sighting on side roads from major highways in the Oregon outback, where motorized travel is somewhere between tedious and difficult in general and travel by bicycle or foot is somewhere between extremely difficult to deadly on the main roads, and just totally not doable on the sides. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net writes: dieterdreist wrote: this might depend on the circumstances/jurisdiction. Maybe it would already put you legally in a bad situation if you drove your hgv into that road with the sign suggesting you don't do so, and something (i.e. damage) happens? Yes. AIUI Unsuitable for HGVs is not a formal prohibition, but deliberately ignoring such a sign could be a contributory factor to a conviction for driving without due care and attention in the UK. (I'm trying to stay away from particular laws in this note.) All true, but basically either you may legally drive on it, or you may not. If it is an offense to drive a certain kind of vehicle on a certain road, where you might be cited merely for operating the vehicle, even if you do so properly, then by all means use access. But if it's just advice, then don't. It really depends on the local rules. My point was not to jump to unwarranted conclusions like the sign says it might not be suitable [but we know that it is not actually prohibited] there's a general rule that says one has to operate vehicles responsibly if you drive a vehicle someplace where someone gave you advice that you maybe shouldn't, and you cause trouble, you might be found negligent (a fair comment, but pretty far afield form mapping) AND THEREFORE, let it be concluded that advice that you shouldn't is the same thing as prohibited which are not supported by evidence, and cause OSM to cross into giving advice rather than documenting reality. In the US, I've seen signs saying that vehicles over 24' are not recommended. I've seen such vehicles stuck on those roads. And I've seen signs that are clearly outright prohbibitions. And signs that vehicles that are not carrying chains are prohibited. So all of these cases are possible. But please don't overinterpret. pgpEC9rPeK3DY.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:35 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Residential neighborhoods will often have a sign banning trucks (heavy goods : Also, a road may be unsuitable for large vehicles because of limited As soon as the warning is verifiable with a traffic sign and is not expressing a personnal opinion (not suitable for my bike), this value is fine (it does not exist in my country anyway ;). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
Would anyone have a problem with me reverting the Wiki to the previous access tag while we discuss the changes? Personally I feel this is a complex enough issue to go through it's own proposal process. Especially because we may end up agreeing on a different tag to reflect the non-legal but officially recommended status of these warnings. Dom On 10 January 2014 09:23, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:35 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Residential neighborhoods will often have a sign banning trucks (heavy goods : Also, a road may be unsuitable for large vehicles because of limited As soon as the warning is verifiable with a traffic sign and is not expressing a personnal opinion (not suitable for my bike), this value is fine (it does not exist in my country anyway ;). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: Since when is unsuitable an accepted value for the access keys? I always thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions. It says usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often marked by a traffic sign So maybe, there is a traffic sign for unsuitable which is different from no. An example would be appreciated. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Residential neighborhoods will often have a sign banning trucks (heavy goods vehicles) unless they are making a delivery in that neighborhood. They don't want heavy vehicles using the road as a through route. Also, a road may be unsuitable for large vehicles because of limited overhead clearances, small-radius curves or intersections, or because the pavement wasn't constructed strongly enough for a vehicle that heavy. Dump trucks, in particular, will break up the surface of a roadway because the weight on each axle is so great. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Unsuitable?
Hi! Since when is unsuitable an accepted value for the access keys? I always thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions. best regards, Martin [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Values ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: Since when is unsuitable an accepted value for the access keys? I always thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions. It says usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often marked by a traffic sign So maybe, there is a traffic sign for unsuitable which is different from no. An example would be appreciated. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
2014/1/8 Pieren pier...@gmail.com Since when is unsuitable an accepted value for the access keys? I always thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions. It says usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often marked by a traffic sign So maybe, there is a traffic sign for unsuitable which is different from no. An example would be appreciated. The value was now changed to discouraged. I have found 2 occurances of this in taginfo (checked access, foot, vehicle and motor_vehicle and found just 2 bicycle=discouraged), hence my suggestion is to remove this from the access page for now, as it wasn't discussed or officially proposed and isn't in use either. Please make a proposal and see what others think about this, before adding it to the documentation of established tags. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
I am not sure why it was suddenly changed (today) from unsuitable to discouraged, but Unsuitable for HGVs is seen frequently in the UK. To my understanding there is a difference between the semantics of unsuitable and discouraged, the former being a simple statement of (official) opinion and the latter indicating that active measures have been taken to decrease its occurrence. In any case it might not be legally enforceable, but if you are shown to have ignored the official warning it may affect your position if it came to an incident (insurance claim). Taginfo gives 318 occurrences of hgv=unsuitable. The principle of hgv=* (and other vehicle-class tags) using the same values as access=* would also suggest there is some merit in documenting unsuitable as a recognised value. If AndyS is reading this, maybe he could explain the change? Colin On 2014-01-08 14:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014/1/8 Pieren pier...@gmail.com Since when is unsuitable an accepted value for the access keys? I always thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions. It says usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often marked by a traffic sign So maybe, there is a traffic sign for unsuitable which is different from no. An example would be appreciated. The value was now changed to discouraged. I have found 2 occurances of this in taginfo (checked access, foot, vehicle and motor_vehicle and found just 2 bicycle=discouraged), hence my suggestion is to remove this from the access page for now, as it wasn't discussed or officially proposed and isn't in use either. Please make a proposal and see what others think about this, before adding it to the documentation of established tags. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
There are lots of Unsuitable for HGV/Motor vehicle signs in this very rural part of the UK. I will see if I can find some photos later, I would just take some on my way home but only see daylight at weekends at this time of year. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 08/01/2014 13:38 Pieren wrote: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: Since when is unsuitable an accepted value for the access keys? I always thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions. It says usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often marked by a traffic sign So maybe, there is a traffic sign for unsuitable which is different from no. An example would be appreciated. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list imagic@gmail.com https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
Personally, I don't think the wiki for a well established tag should be changed in such a significant way without discussion and voting. This is because I would oppose changing the access tag away from the legal access rights. I think if we want to describe something subjective like what vehicles may or may not fit, that should be put in a new proposal for a new tag. Best regards, Dom On 8 January 2014 15:36, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: Colin Smale wrote: ... Unsuitable for HGVs is seen frequently in the UK. ... Taginfo gives 318 occurrences of hgv=unsuitable. The principle of hgv=* (and other vehicle-class tags) using the same values as access=* would also suggest there is some merit in documenting unsuitable as a recognised value. I'm still not convinced that hgv=unsuitable is be a valid access tag. Access _rules_ in England and Wales are complicated enough already without trying to include what may or may not be a good idea because you might get stuck. That said, I don't yet know of a good way of recording the information beyond sticking it in a note. FWIW I asked a similar question a couple of years ago on talk-gb: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-October/012221.html My guess (and it is just a guess because I haven't done it) would be that if you wanted to create an HGV-aware routable map it wouldn't be that difficult to process whatever HGV tags (along with surface and whatever else) there are (in notes and elsewhere) to determine don't go down here. Only when someone's done a first pass of that will people be able to point to a road near them and say that road should not be suggested or included because Until someone comes up with a better suggestion for tagging it's just important to record unsuitable for HGVs in some manner so that it can be converted to whatever better scheme emerges in the future. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
Hi, On 01/08/2014 05:17 PM, Dominic Hosler wrote: I think if we want to describe something subjective like what vehicles may or may not fit There might be a misunderstanding. There are a number of roads officially signposted: Unsuitable for X - this is not subjective, at least not on the part of the mapper. (Remembered this, but found it doesn't say unsuitable but not advised instead - http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/bsabantamvc/phpFTq62V) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
These examples are not far from home so I can get some copyright free versions, when there is some daylight. An example of unsuitable for all motor vehicles https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.812712,-2.642415spn=0.003962,0.010364t=mz=17layer=ccbll=52.812712,-2.642415panoid=wmYBMLnyBiKjRsNIkNw57wcbp=12,7.72,,1,2.89 and unsuitable for HGVs https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.873274,-2.724481spn=0.007965,0.020728t=mz=16layer=ccbll=52.873314,-2.724506panoid=nA6y8jfXn9h0aQlJ38KRIQcbp=12,340.45,,0,14.96 and one in full https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.871746,-2.735252spn=0.007965,0.020728t=mz=16layer=ccbll=52.871725,-2.73534panoid=yvYYjN3db-nYjq0IxmnkaQcbp=12,2.61,,1,3.54 There are others, such as unsuitable for caravans and unsuitable for coaches, but can't easily place examples of these. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
Very important that we can mark roads that are officially designated as unsuitable for certain vehicles. Don't see a problem with this use of this tag? Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 08/01/2014 17:44, Philip Barnes wrote: These examples are not far from home so I can get some copyright free versions, when there is some daylight. An example of unsuitable for all motor vehicles https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.812712,-2.642415spn=0.003962,0.010364t=mz=17layer=ccbll=52.812712,-2.642415panoid=wmYBMLnyBiKjRsNIkNw57wcbp=12,7.72,,1,2.89 and unsuitable for HGVs https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.873274,-2.724481spn=0.007965,0.020728t=mz=16layer=ccbll=52.873314,-2.724506panoid=nA6y8jfXn9h0aQlJ38KRIQcbp=12,340.45,,0,14.96 and one in full https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.871746,-2.735252spn=0.007965,0.020728t=mz=16layer=ccbll=52.871725,-2.73534panoid=yvYYjN3db-nYjq0IxmnkaQcbp=12,2.61,,1,3.54 There are others, such as unsuitable for caravans and unsuitable for coaches, but can't easily place examples of these. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
Jonathan bigfatfro...@gmail.com writes: Very important that we can mark roads that are officially designated as unsuitable for certain vehicles. Don't see a problem with this use of this tag? Sure, but designated as unsuitable is not about right of access; it's a different kind of attribute. So something like unsuitable=hgv would denote that there is some official signage saying hgvs are unsuitable, and separate that from notions that they are prohibited. This may seem pedantic, but using the osm data is confusing enough already, and legal rights and physical reality are entirely separate issues. pgpqTDmeNeSJV.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
2014/1/9 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com Sure, but designated as unsuitable is not about right of access; it's a different kind of attribute. So something like unsuitable=hgv this might depend on the circumstances/jurisdiction. Maybe it would already put you legally in a bad situation if you drove your hgv into that road with the sign suggesting you don't do so, and something (i.e. damage) happens? Can you really enter with your unsuitable vehicle into this road as freely as you could without the sign? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?
dieterdreist wrote: this might depend on the circumstances/jurisdiction. Maybe it would already put you legally in a bad situation if you drove your hgv into that road with the sign suggesting you don't do so, and something (i.e. damage) happens? Yes. AIUI Unsuitable for HGVs is not a formal prohibition, but deliberately ignoring such a sign could be a contributory factor to a conviction for driving without due care and attention in the UK. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Unsuitable-tp5792133p5792285.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
