Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 10/08/2010 03:13, Liz wrote: On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Steve Bennett wrote: Wish there was an agriculture=* tag. Life could be simple: well living in an agricultural area I'd start with agriculture= agriculture=* is not very acurate Does it describe the use of the soil, the production of a farm ? Maybe it is enough for urban poeple, but not for micromapping. A meadow never produces milk, but a farm. A vineyard never produces wine, but a winery... The culture on a field may change often, but the production of a farm seldom... So I think better to use the tags landuse and produce. On 10/08/2010 07:31, Steve Bennett wrote: On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:32 AM, John Smithdeltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 11:30, Richard Weltyrwe...@averillpark.net wrote: not sure it's wise to try and tag for crop types. many farms do rotate their crops, after all. not the same from year to year, and all that. In the area I grew up in they rotated twice a year in some cases... True, you wouldn't want to try and tag that. However certain types of agriculture like vineyards are much more permanent. So maybe it is appropriate to leave them as landuse: landuse=orchard landuse=vineyard ... Presumably a basic distinction between pasture, crops, grapes, and any kind of tree (orchards, hazelnuts...) would be meaningful and not change too quickly. Even that might not be maintainable though, since by definition agricultural areas have low population density (and very low OSM mapper density...) Steve The question is also : where do we put the tag ? If the tag is on a polygon (field or ...), we describe what is on the floor : the landuse=orchard|vinyard|farm|... is good with trees=* On a building, on a site, the tag produce=wine|rice|flowers|milk|vegetables|fruits|... shoud be appropriate I think this way is more stable. -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:20:33 +0100, Richard Mann wrote: Most of these call themselves vineyards http://www.englishwineproducers.com/scvineyard.htm Do they actually have a vineyard on site? At least locally (US:OR), a winery can't call itself a vineyard unless they're growing their grapes on site, though you can call yourself a winery whether or not you grow on- site (and indeed, the blue motorist information signs call 'em all wineries whether or not they have a vineyard). In AU, these small places which are calling themselves vineyards are called boutique wineries ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Steve Bennett wrote: Wish there was an agriculture=* tag. Life could be simple: well living in an agricultural area I'd start with agriculture= rice wheat hops barley canola (modified rape seed CAnadaOiLa) grapes (subtypes table/wine or variety) citrus (subtypes needed) stone fruit (subtypes needed) (major type name needs to be supplied) subtags apples/pears/quince cotton hemp flowers vegetables (usually annual crops, subject to rotation, so might not be marked as subtypes) More suggestions welcome to complicate SteveB's life. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 10 August 2010 11:30, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: not sure it's wise to try and tag for crop types. many farms do rotate their crops, after all. not the same from year to year, and all that. In the area I grew up in they rotated twice a year in some cases... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:32 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 11:30, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: not sure it's wise to try and tag for crop types. many farms do rotate their crops, after all. not the same from year to year, and all that. In the area I grew up in they rotated twice a year in some cases... True, you wouldn't want to try and tag that. However certain types of agriculture like vineyards are much more permanent. So maybe it is appropriate to leave them as landuse: landuse=orchard landuse=vineyard ... Presumably a basic distinction between pasture, crops, grapes, and any kind of tree (orchards, hazelnuts...) would be meaningful and not change too quickly. Even that might not be maintainable though, since by definition agricultural areas have low population density (and very low OSM mapper density...) Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:20:33 +0100, Richard Mann wrote: Most of these call themselves vineyards http://www.englishwineproducers.com/scvineyard.htm Do they actually have a vineyard on site? At least locally (US:OR), a winery can't call itself a vineyard unless they're growing their grapes on site, though you can call yourself a winery whether or not you grow on- site (and indeed, the blue motorist information signs call 'em all wineries whether or not they have a vineyard). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
My two cents: winery is a better term than vineyard because, in some contexts at least, the two have distinct meanings. cellar door is a bad term because it will be taken literally by many people and lead to confusion. Given that there are wineries that don't sell direct to the public, and there are wine shops not attached to wineries, and that a cellar door is really no more than a wine shop within a winery, I would suggest: tourism=winery (arguably, industrial=winery or something along those lines) and shop=wine A cellar door could either tagged as a single node: tourism=winery shop=wine Or as one shop=wine node within a tourism=winery area. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 30 July 2010 17:42, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Given that there are wineries that don't sell direct to the public, and there are wine shops not attached to wineries, and that a cellar door is really no more than a wine shop within a winery, I would suggest: Some cellar doors these days are not even near the winery they are associated with. I was just reading about a whiskey distillery in in middle of Tasmania that has a cellar door in Hobart. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
Perhaps we need a factory_outlet tag? This is just a particular case of a factory outlet. If the factory is tagged as a winery and the shop as a factory outlet, the picture is complete. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 7/29/10 6:45 PM, Steve Doerr wrote: Perhaps we need a factory_outlet tag? This is just a particular case of a factory outlet. If the factory is tagged as a winery and the shop as a factory outlet, the picture is complete. in the US, factory outlet is a term that has become much abused and no longer has its original meaning. we now have huge malls of outlets that are no where near the factories. if you introduce the term, intending its original meaning, i can guarantee that in the US at least, it'll start getting misused to represent these malls. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
Most vineyards have something similar, though not always so heavily marketed, so I think you need to find a term that's more international. Perhaps tourism=vineyard_shop or just shop=vineyard. Richard On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 2:15 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 July 2010 10:44, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I think that it is likely to lead to a great deal of confusion, since the general meaning of cellar door is any door leading into a building's cellar. This does not necessarily mean that the building is a winery; for example, most houses in the USA that date back to 1950 or earlier have a cellar. The usual terminology here is that a below-ground space that is dirt-floored, or is basically just an excavation, is called a cellar; one that has finished walls and floors, so that it can better be used for storage or as living space is generally called a basement. Are you suggesting people will confuse most cellar doors to cellars as a tourist attraction? I spent a bit of time and effort trying to find something similar to this concept in other countries, these places are heavily marketed as tourism spots in Australia in the various wine regions. I found various tasting rooms in various countries but as best I can tell these differ again, but I would be more than happy to be pointed to some better references. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 26 July 2010 20:02, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: Most vineyards have something similar, though not always so heavily marketed, so I think you need to find a term that's more international. Perhaps tourism=vineyard_shop or just shop=vineyard. You some times can get standalone cellar doors that isn't attached to a winery or a vineyard... Although they do sell wines from near by vineyards or wineries... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
winery: no such word in en_gb, we just use vineyard for the whole operation (though of course we don't do these things on the same scale as Australia). Unless you're going to distinguish between shop=winery and shop=vineyard, I'd use the more generic term in the tagging system. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 26 July 2010 20:30, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: winery: no such word in en_gb, we just use vineyard for the whole operation (though of course we don't do these things on the same scale as Australia). Unless you're going to distinguish between shop=winery and shop=vineyard, I'd use the more generic term in the tagging system. Yes these places do sales, but they are heavily promoted as tourist attractions, and there is other tourist companies that do tours of these places so that you don't need to drive home and yet others have on site accommodation for similar reasons... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, Richard Mann wrote: winery: no such word in en_gb, we just use vineyard for the whole operation (though of course we don't do these things on the same scale as Australia). Unless you're going to distinguish between shop=winery and shop=vineyard, I'd use the more generic term in the tagging system. Richard oddly, although winery is apparently of American origin no definition of vineyard I found in a quick look through paper and internet sources included winemaking. can you provide a definition of this use of the word? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 26/07/2010 11:30, Richard Mann wrote: winery: no such word in en_gb, we just use vineyard for the whole operation (though of course we don't do these things on the same scale as Australia). Unless you're going to distinguish between shop=winery and shop=vineyard, I'd use the more generic term in the tagging system. I think winery is a fairly common and well known word in the UK. I known of a few places near me that call themselves placename Winery. Its not necessarily associated with a vineyard - where the grapes are grown (vineyard), is often nowhere near where the wine is made and sold (winery). Some of my local wineries make fruit/berry based wines, so don't have a vineyard at all. I think tourism=winery is the best option. You could also have tourism=brewery and tourism=distillery for those places that have visitor centres/shops. Craig ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
Most of these call themselves vineyards http://www.englishwineproducers.com/scvineyard.htm On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: can you provide a definition of this use of the word? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 7/26/10 7:18 AM, Dave F. wrote: On 26/07/2010 11:17, Liz wrote: On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, Richard Mann wrote: Most vineyards have something similar, though not always so heavily marketed, so I think you need to find a term that's more international. Perhaps tourism=vineyard_shop or just shop=vineyard. It's not attached to the vineyard, it's attached to the *winery*. Apologies, but i live at a winery and can tell the difference. Yes, but the vast majority of us don't can't. one key reason to distinguish is that there are wine making facilities (wineries) which do not have vineyards attached; they purchase their grapes from other businesses. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
Since there hasn't been any dispute over this, I wrote up a wiki page for this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism=cellar_door ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
I think that it is likely to lead to a great deal of confusion, since the general meaning of cellar door is any door leading into a building's cellar. This does not necessarily mean that the building is a winery; for example, most houses in the USA that date back to 1950 or earlier have a cellar. The usual terminology here is that a below-ground space that is dirt-floored, or is basically just an excavation, is called a cellar; one that has finished walls and floors, so that it can better be used for storage or as living space is generally called a basement. I think that your tag needs to be more specific, or else it is likely to be applied to any cellar entrance. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] What do others call this? From :mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com Date :Sun Jul 25 18:39:35 America/Chicago 2010 Since there hasn't been any dispute over this, I wrote up a wiki page for this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism=cellar_door ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I think that it is likely to lead to a great deal of confusion, since the general meaning of cellar door is any door leading into a building's cellar. This does not necessarily mean that the building is a winery; for example, most houses in the USA that date back to 1950 or earlier have a cellar. The usual terminology here is that a below-ground space that is dirt-floored, or is basically just an excavation, is called a cellar; one that has finished walls and floors, so that it can better be used for storage or as living space is generally called a basement. Being under the category of tourism, it's not intended to be seen as the general meaning of any door leading into a building's cellar. In Australia at least, cellar door is a common and usual term for this kind of facility, which is open to the public at a winery. To me, a cellar door is a kind of tourist attraction but it's also a kind of government-licensed alcohol vendor. One that is limited to a single manufacturer's products or what is produced in the surrounding vineyards. There will be salespeople who may spend a significant amount of time with a customer, allowing them to taste many wines or perhaps tour the wine-making facilities on site before making a purchase. I'm not sure how the tagging should be done, but I think the connection with both tourism and retail (alcohol) need to be considered. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do others call this?
On 26 July 2010 10:44, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I think that it is likely to lead to a great deal of confusion, since the general meaning of cellar door is any door leading into a building's cellar. This does not necessarily mean that the building is a winery; for example, most houses in the USA that date back to 1950 or earlier have a cellar. The usual terminology here is that a below-ground space that is dirt-floored, or is basically just an excavation, is called a cellar; one that has finished walls and floors, so that it can better be used for storage or as living space is generally called a basement. Are you suggesting people will confuse most cellar doors to cellars as a tourist attraction? I spent a bit of time and effort trying to find something similar to this concept in other countries, these places are heavily marketed as tourism spots in Australia in the various wine regions. I found various tasting rooms in various countries but as best I can tell these differ again, but I would be more than happy to be pointed to some better references. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
