Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Erkin Alp Güney]

Moreover, it is impossible in current API.


20-08-2018 10:45 tarihinde Mateusz Konieczny yazdı:
> 18. Sierpień 2018 20:44 od djakk.dj...@gmail.com
> :
>
> For such a subjective thing, it should be mapped by each
> openstreetmap member : djakk maps this area as dangerous, baloo as
> not dangerous, etc  and the renderer makes an average.
>
>
>
> This is a horrible idea and it should not be used. OSM is not a place
> for such inherently subjective opinions.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra blake]

yeah, if it did get mapped it should probably at least be something specific 
otherwise the user has no idea what to watch out for, and it may unreasonably 
deter people from the area, i think it might be the same reason reviews aren't 
recorded?outside of that i don't think osm performs live actions or even can, 
does it? (would probably have some cool use cases though) whereas (as an 
example! there's probably a better neutral tag name to use) something like 
activity=graffiti would tell the user it's there, but also gives them enough 
information to make an unbiased decision (whilst some may think of it as a sign 
of danger, probably an equal number of people aren't even affected by its 
existence in an area) for example near lincoln, new mexico there's a rock that 
is a popular graffiti spot (before anyone looks for it to at least map as art, 
that was years ago that i was there, it might not still exist)
On Aug 20 2018, at 8:45 am, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> 18. Sierpień 2018 20:44 od djakk.dj...@gmail.com 
> (https://link.getmailspring.com/link/1534751304.local-117f7c54-95d6-v1.4.2-f587b...@getmailspring.com/0?redirect=mailto%3Adjakk.djakk%40gmail.com=dGFnZ2luZ0BvcGVuc3RyZWV0bWFwLm9yZw%3D%3D):
> > For such a subjective thing, it should be mapped by each openstreetmap 
> > member : djakk maps this area as dangerous, baloo as not dangerous, etc and 
> > the renderer makes an average.
>
>
>
>
> This is a horrible idea and it should not be used. OSM is not a place
> for such inherently subjective opinions.
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Mateusz Konieczny]

18. Sierpień 2018 20:44 od djakk.dj...@gmail.com :


> For such a subjective thing, it should be mapped by each openstreetmap member 
> : djakk maps this area as dangerous, baloo as not dangerous, etc  and the 
> renderer makes an average.






This is a horrible idea and it should not be used. OSM is not a place 
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[djakk djakk]

For such a subjective thing, it should be mapped by each openstreetmap
member : djakk maps this area as dangerous, baloo as not dangerous, etc
 and the renderer makes an average.


djakk



Le sam. 18 août 2018 à 06:26, Paul Johnson  a écrit :

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 16:17 Adam Franco  wrote:
>
>>
>> Another "risk" case would be an area where a civil war or conflict has
>> divided who controls what land. Either side of the line of control may be
>> incredibly risky for people affiliated with the other side but not to the
>> supporters of those in control.
>>
>
> At least this is objectively reportable and we have tagging for this as a
> result:  Disputed territory is mapped as part of each party state as well
> as disputed=yes on the lines actually under dispute as a basic minimum.
> Though this doesn't tell you if the dispute is, say, a low-simmering
> situation on the level of party states playing professional capture the
> flag (Denmark by way of Greenland vs Canada on Hans Island in the Kennedy
> Strait) or a multilateral bloody humanitarian crisis like Kashmir.
>
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 16:17 Adam Franco  wrote:

>
> Another "risk" case would be an area where a civil war or conflict has
> divided who controls what land. Either side of the line of control may be
> incredibly risky for people affiliated with the other side but not to the
> supporters of those in control.
>

At least this is objectively reportable and we have tagging for this as a
result:  Disputed territory is mapped as part of each party state as well
as disputed=yes on the lines actually under dispute as a basic minimum.
Though this doesn't tell you if the dispute is, say, a low-simmering
situation on the level of party states playing professional capture the
flag (Denmark by way of Greenland vs Canada on Hans Island in the Kennedy
Strait) or a multilateral bloody humanitarian crisis like Kashmir.

>
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Adam Franco]

What areas are "dangerous" is very much a matter of race and class in the
USA and likely in many other parts of the world.

For example, there are wealthy mostly-white neighborhoods in many American
suburbs where a person-of-color just walking or driving through is cause
for residents to (injustly) call the police. This can VERY dangerous for
these people of color and has resulted in the police shooting completely
innocent people.

Similarly, a plaza where many pockets are picked may be "dangerous" for
unsuspecting tourists fiddling with their cameras, but be safe for locals
who aren't staring at the vistas. It also may have no crime during certain
hours or when a police officer happens to be monitoring the area.

Many places may seem dangerous to outsiders, but are totally comfortable
for locals. In other places, no one messes with the wealthy foreign
tourists, but locals are subjugated to inhumane and dangerous conditions
that place them at extreme risk.

Another "risk" case would be an area where a civil war or conflict has
divided who controls what land. Either side of the line of control may be
incredibly risky for people affiliated with the other side but not to the
supporters of those in control.

Overall, if a level or perception of risk is very dependent on who you are
and what your background is, then it is going to be a fraught thing to try
to map.  Similarly, past crimes are not a guarantee of future crimes.

As was mentioned above, if you don't feel comfortable giving specific
examples, then it is pretty impossible to have a discussion of the merits
of the idea.


On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 2:57 PM, seirra  wrote:

> well like i said, i meant more for specific things that aren't just
> generalisations where it may actively  prevent you from doing something or
> where it is a regular occurrence. i don't personally see the race/class
> related aspect, but as previously said i respect that others feel it is
> there and thus should be avoided (i hope i'm not offending, although i
> respect the final decision i really don't understand)
>
> On 08/17/18 18:30, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> Then you're just splitting class and race hairs.
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 11:20 seirra  wrote:
>
>> there can be notable areas though, outside of what may usually be expected
>>
>> On 08/17/18 16:03, Paul Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 16:35 seirra  wrote:
>>
>>> hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i was thinking
>>> more about areas that were known crime spots/had associated illegal
>>> activities people may want to avoid(to the point there are regular police
>>> patrols at night)? also places where getting a phone out could lead to it
>>> being stolen? i've heard that can be an issue in some areas. just wasn't
>>> sure if any of those scenarios really deserved tagging because i didn't
>>> really feel there was a bias there? either way just wanted to check (sorry
>>> if this shows up as a double post, i saw there was a reply to mailing list
>>> option i should be using, i get the impression the first time didn't send)
>>>
>>
>> At that point, you're just avoiding cities in general, as crime rates
>> tend to increase proportionally to population density.
>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

well like i said, i meant more for specific things that aren't just 
generalisations where it may actively  prevent you from doing something 
or where it is a regular occurrence. i don't personally see the 
race/class related aspect, but as previously said i respect that others 
feel it is there and thus should be avoided (i hope i'm not offending, 
although i respect the final decision i really don't understand)



On 08/17/18 18:30, Paul Johnson wrote:

Then you're just splitting class and race hairs.

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 11:20 seirra > wrote:


there can be notable areas though, outside of what may usually be
expected


On 08/17/18 16:03, Paul Johnson wrote:



On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 16:35 seirra mailto:gene...@sarifria.x10.bz>> wrote:

hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i
was thinking more about areas that were known crime spots/had
associated illegal activities people may want to avoid(to the
point there are regular police patrols at night)? also places
where getting a phone out could lead to it being stolen? i've
heard that can be an issue in some areas. just wasn't sure if
any of those scenarios really deserved tagging because i
didn't really feel there was a bias there? either way just
wanted to check (sorry if this shows up as a double post, i
saw there was a reply to mailing list option i should be
using, i get the impression the first time didn't send)


At that point, you're just avoiding cities in general, as crime
rates tend to increase proportionally to population density.



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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Paul Johnson]

Then you're just splitting class and race hairs.

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 11:20 seirra  wrote:

> there can be notable areas though, outside of what may usually be expected
>
> On 08/17/18 16:03, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 16:35 seirra  wrote:
>
>> hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i was thinking
>> more about areas that were known crime spots/had associated illegal
>> activities people may want to avoid(to the point there are regular police
>> patrols at night)? also places where getting a phone out could lead to it
>> being stolen? i've heard that can be an issue in some areas. just wasn't
>> sure if any of those scenarios really deserved tagging because i didn't
>> really feel there was a bias there? either way just wanted to check (sorry
>> if this shows up as a double post, i saw there was a reply to mailing list
>> option i should be using, i get the impression the first time didn't send)
>>
>
> At that point, you're just avoiding cities in general, as crime rates tend
> to increase proportionally to population density.
>
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

there can be notable areas though, outside of what may usually be expected


On 08/17/18 16:03, Paul Johnson wrote:



On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 16:35 seirra > wrote:


hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i was
thinking more about areas that were known crime spots/had
associated illegal activities people may want to avoid(to the
point there are regular police patrols at night)? also places
where getting a phone out could lead to it being stolen? i've
heard that can be an issue in some areas. just wasn't sure if any
of those scenarios really deserved tagging because i didn't really
feel there was a bias there? either way just wanted to check
(sorry if this shows up as a double post, i saw there was a reply
to mailing list option i should be using, i get the impression the
first time didn't send)


At that point, you're just avoiding cities in general, as crime rates 
tend to increase proportionally to population density.




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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 16:35 seirra  wrote:

> hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i was thinking
> more about areas that were known crime spots/had associated illegal
> activities people may want to avoid(to the point there are regular police
> patrols at night)? also places where getting a phone out could lead to it
> being stolen? i've heard that can be an issue in some areas. just wasn't
> sure if any of those scenarios really deserved tagging because i didn't
> really feel there was a bias there? either way just wanted to check (sorry
> if this shows up as a double post, i saw there was a reply to mailing list
> option i should be using, i get the impression the first time didn't send)
>

At that point, you're just avoiding cities in general, as crime rates tend
to increase proportionally to population density.

>
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

in that particular example, i'm referring to where just having your 
phone visible is enough to lead to theft? (i don't know if it was 
exclusively phones, it was a warning from a local) money and cars are 
probably other examples of what could be mapped though.



On 08/17/18 00:22, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 17. Aug 2018, at 00:25, seirra  wrote:

lives they say if someone sees your phone it gets stolen? so safety:phone=no 
could be a good example?


like you have to take special care of your phone, but don’t worry for your 
money or your car, they’re only interested in phones?


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

I was thinking more if a specific crime happens often enough to be 
attributed to a street/building. by overlaid I'm guessing you mean as in 
third party like mentioned earlier?



On 08/17/18 00:36, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 08/16/2018 02:32 PM, seirra wrote:

Hello, i was wondering whether there was a way to tag areas that may be
risky/dangerous to walk in? i can think of a few streets that could use
the tag, was there anything of the sort that has been agreed on?

Past discussions have indicated this is not something which can be
objectively mapped in the OSM database. A posted sign warning of a high
crime area, as well as things like graffiti, the
dilapidated/deteriorated state of buildings, etc. could be mapped or
tagged on existing objects as appropriate. Crime data by police
beat/precinct could be overlaid onto a map generated from OSM data as well.




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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

 i understand that, i was giving a less 'political' example, because 
if the OP feels they shouldn't be mapped, then discussion needs to be 
sensitive too. i meant more not mentioning them specifically here... for 
the same reason in the sentence before.



On 08/17/18 00:31, Warin wrote:

On 17/08/18 08:25, seirra wrote:
i did originally mean more for example if an area is known for a 
specific crime... listing it there? for example where a friend of 
mine lives they say if someone sees your phone it gets stolen? so 
safety:phone=no could be a good example? i can think of other 
examples such as specific streets patrolled at night due to known 
criminal activity (which should be tagged with the specific crime, 
because otherwise it's no use to anyone), 
The areas I am thinking of .. your life is at risk. Forget money, 
phones.. your very life.


but given OP's expressed issues on the matter i figure it's best not 
to mention them specifically


If your going to map them .. then they will be public.




On 08/16/18 23:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 17. Aug 2018, at 00:09, Andy Mabbett  
wrote:


What, like tax avoidance and insider dealing?


I believe he’s more after corruption and abuse of institutional power.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 08/16/2018 02:32 PM, seirra wrote:
> Hello, i was wondering whether there was a way to tag areas that may be
> risky/dangerous to walk in? i can think of a few streets that could use
> the tag, was there anything of the sort that has been agreed on?

Past discussions have indicated this is not something which can be
objectively mapped in the OSM database. A posted sign warning of a high
crime area, as well as things like graffiti, the
dilapidated/deteriorated state of buildings, etc. could be mapped or
tagged on existing objects as appropriate. Crime data by police
beat/precinct could be overlaid onto a map generated from OSM data as well.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Warin]

On 17/08/18 08:25, seirra wrote:
i did originally mean more for example if an area is known for a 
specific crime... listing it there? for example where a friend of mine 
lives they say if someone sees your phone it gets stolen? so 
safety:phone=no could be a good example? i can think of other examples 
such as specific streets patrolled at night due to known criminal 
activity (which should be tagged with the specific crime, because 
otherwise it's no use to anyone), 
The areas I am thinking of .. your life is at risk. Forget money, 
phones.. your very life.


but given OP's expressed issues on the matter i figure it's best not 
to mention them specifically


If your going to map them .. then they will be public.




On 08/16/18 23:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 17. Aug 2018, at 00:09, Andy Mabbett  
wrote:


What, like tax avoidance and insider dealing?


I believe he’s more after corruption and abuse of institutional power.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Aug 2018, at 00:25, seirra  wrote:
> 
> lives they say if someone sees your phone it gets stolen? so safety:phone=no 
> could be a good example?


like you have to take special care of your phone, but don’t worry for your 
money or your car, they’re only interested in phones?


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

i did originally mean more for example if an area is known for a 
specific crime... listing it there? for example where a friend of mine 
lives they say if someone sees your phone it gets stolen? so 
safety:phone=no could be a good example? i can think of other examples 
such as specific streets patrolled at night due to known criminal 
activity (which should be tagged with the specific crime, because 
otherwise it's no use to anyone), but given OP's expressed issues on the 
matter i figure it's best not to mention them specifically



On 08/16/18 23:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 17. Aug 2018, at 00:09, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

What, like tax avoidance and insider dealing?


I believe he’s more after corruption and abuse of institutional power.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Aug 2018, at 00:09, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> 
> What, like tax avoidance and insider dealing?


I believe he’s more after corruption and abuse of institutional power.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Aug 2018, at 00:03, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Even the mapping of areas of land mines has been left to third parties.


I don’t know about individual land mines, but there is the tag 
military=danger_area which can be used for those places where mines are 
supposed to have been deployed and not completely removed.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Andy Mabbett]

On 16 August 2018 at 22:34, seirra  wrote:

> hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i was thinking more
> about areas that were known crime spots/had associated illegal activities
> people may want to avoid

What, like tax avoidance and insider dealing?

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Warin]

There has never been agreement here on 'dangerous' areas. Even after 
people have lost there lives using GPS to go in to 'dangerous areas'.
Some 'dangerous areas' require the  police to go heavily armed and in 
large numbers to ensure their own survival.


Even the mapping of areas of land mines has been left to third parties.

On 17/08/18 07:34, seirra wrote:


hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i was 
thinking more about areas that were known crime spots/had associated 
illegal activities people may want to avoid(to the point there are 
regular police patrols at night)? also places where getting a phone 
out could lead to it being stolen? i've heard that can be an issue in 
some areas. just wasn't sure if any of those scenarios really deserved 
tagging because i didn't really feel there was a bias there? either 
way just wanted to check (sorry if this shows up as a double post, i 
saw there was a reply to mailing list option i should be using, i get 
the impression the first time didn't send)



On 08/16/18 21:52, Jmapb wrote:


On the other hand, an overlay with data about various risk factors -- 
crime, weather, accidents, air quality, cancer clusters, whatever -- 
would be a fine feature for a 3rd party map app to offer. But these 
things don't belong in the OSM database.


As far as "bad areas" and "class and racial bias" go, I'll admit that 
I contemplated the idea of tagging the walking paths within some city 
public housing projects as access=destination, because it reflects 
the reality on the ground -- generally, people don't walk *through* 
the projects to get to a destination on the other side. But it's 
immediately obvious that this is bias-based interpretation: when I 
say "people" I mean people I know, and OSM is for everybody, not just 
people I know. So unless the paths are physically impeded, 
unmaintained to the point of decay, or signed "residents only" they 
need to be equal to any other walking path.


J


On 8/16/2018 4:25 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
Other than dog toilets, this is too subjective to be included in OSM 
at all, and tends to stink of class and racial biases.


On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 14:35 seirra > wrote:


Hello, i was wondering whether there was a way to tag areas that
may be
risky/dangerous to walk in? i can think of a few streets that
could use
the tag, was there anything of the sort that has been agreed on?


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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

hmmm i do see the point there about racial/class bias... i was thinking 
more about areas that were known crime spots/had associated illegal 
activities people may want to avoid(to the point there are regular 
police patrols at night)? also places where getting a phone out could 
lead to it being stolen? i've heard that can be an issue in some areas. 
just wasn't sure if any of those scenarios really deserved tagging 
because i didn't really feel there was a bias there? either way just 
wanted to check (sorry if this shows up as a double post, i saw there 
was a reply to mailing list option i should be using, i get the 
impression the first time didn't send)



On 08/16/18 21:52, Jmapb wrote:


On the other hand, an overlay with data about various risk factors -- 
crime, weather, accidents, air quality, cancer clusters, whatever -- 
would be a fine feature for a 3rd party map app to offer. But these 
things don't belong in the OSM database.


As far as "bad areas" and "class and racial bias" go, I'll admit that 
I contemplated the idea of tagging the walking paths within some city 
public housing projects as access=destination, because it reflects the 
reality on the ground -- generally, people don't walk *through* the 
projects to get to a destination on the other side. But it's 
immediately obvious that this is bias-based interpretation: when I say 
"people" I mean people I know, and OSM is for everybody, not just 
people I know. So unless the paths are physically impeded, 
unmaintained to the point of decay, or signed "residents only" they 
need to be equal to any other walking path.


J


On 8/16/2018 4:25 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
Other than dog toilets, this is too subjective to be included in OSM 
at all, and tends to stink of class and racial biases.


On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 14:35 seirra > wrote:


Hello, i was wondering whether there was a way to tag areas that
may be
risky/dangerous to walk in? i can think of a few streets that
could use
the tag, was there anything of the sort that has been agreed on?


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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. Aug 2018, at 22:52, Jmapb  wrote:
> 
> On the other hand, an overlay with data about various risk factors -- crime, 
> weather, accidents, air quality, cancer clusters, whatever -- would be a fine 
> feature for a 3rd party map app to offer. But these things don't belong in 
> the OSM database.
> 


actually crime statistics also tend to be biased. You don’t get the numbers of 
the crimes committed but of those reported to and registered at the police. 
If the police investigates more crime of a certain type, the numbers in the 
statistics raise for example, if they frisk more people of a certain color of 
skin there seem to be more criminals of that color of skin.


> As far as "bad areas" and "class and racial bias" go, I'll admit that I 
> contemplated the idea of tagging the walking paths within some city public 
> housing projects as access=destination, because it reflects the reality on 
> the ground --
> 


access tags are about the legal access, not whether it makes sense to go there, 
or whether you might feel uncomfortable going there.


> generally, people don't walk *through* the projects to get to a destination 
> on the other side.
> 


I’m usually doing this, as long as it isn’t explicitly forbidden. In particular 
public housing projects tend to allow walking through, while private residences 
tend to lock themselves in.


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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Jmapb]

On the other hand, an overlay with data about various risk factors -- 
crime, weather, accidents, air quality, cancer clusters, whatever -- 
would be a fine feature for a 3rd party map app to offer. But these 
things don't belong in the OSM database.


As far as "bad areas" and "class and racial bias" go, I'll admit that I 
contemplated the idea of tagging the walking paths within some city 
public housing projects as access=destination, because it reflects the 
reality on the ground -- generally, people don't walk *through* the 
projects to get to a destination on the other side. But it's immediately 
obvious that this is bias-based interpretation: when I say "people" I 
mean people I know, and OSM is for everybody, not just people I know. So 
unless the paths are physically impeded, unmaintained to the point of 
decay, or signed "residents only" they need to be equal to any other 
walking path.


J


On 8/16/2018 4:25 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
Other than dog toilets, this is too subjective to be included in OSM 
at all, and tends to stink of class and racial biases.


On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 14:35 seirra > wrote:


Hello, i was wondering whether there was a way to tag areas that
may be
risky/dangerous to walk in? i can think of a few streets that
could use
the tag, was there anything of the sort that has been agreed on?


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Re: [Tagging] areas of risk

[Paul Johnson]

Other than dog toilets, this is too subjective to be included in OSM at
all, and tends to stink of class and racial biases.

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 14:35 seirra  wrote:

> Hello, i was wondering whether there was a way to tag areas that may be
> risky/dangerous to walk in? i can think of a few streets that could use
> the tag, was there anything of the sort that has been agreed on?
>
>
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[Tagging] areas of risk

[seirra]

Hello, i was wondering whether there was a way to tag areas that may be 
risky/dangerous to walk in? i can think of a few streets that could use 
the tag, was there anything of the sort that has been agreed on?



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