Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: ** Where do we stop, if we override the implied tags do we then have to add pedestrian=no horse=no invalid_carriage=no learner_driver=no hgv_learner=yes tracked_vehicle=no agricultural_vehicle=no and so on. You forgot camel=no because somewhere in the world (middle east ?), it is probably allowed to ride a camel on some motorway ;-) Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 3:33 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: ** On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 01:41 +, Dave F. wrote: Hi Around my area in the UK a user is presently adding bicycle=no to all motorways. There was a discussion a while back whether it that tag was implied for motorways. If I remember, it was claimed there were some places (not UK) that allowed bicycles. What was the consensus? I'm not sure it's necessary. I think it should be implied bicycle=yes added if they are allowed. I did mail the mapper who added these and got the following reply. Because I want to. My edits are not vandalism, they are correct and so why I am doing them is not really germane now is it?. His deliberate choice of complex words that, I had to google. Had me thinking muppet. In my mind the restriction is in the name, Motor-way, Auto-bahn, Auto-route, Auto-Strada. I have driven on the first 3, and none allow cyclists. Where do we stop, if we override the implied tags do we then have to add pedestrian=no horse=no invalid_carriage=no learner_driver=no hgv_learner=yes tracked_vehicle=no agricultural_vehicle=no and so on. More detail is not a bad thing. In countries where cyclists are allowed I do wonder if they are really motorway, I mean legally, signposted, or if cyclists are allowed are they expressways and then maybe tagged as trunk. In the US and Canada, it varies. Oregon figures you're bright enough to know you're entering an expressway or freeway. Other places, such as California, Washington, and IIRC Texas, post EXPRESSWAY ENTRANCE or FREEWAY ENTRANCE right at the start of the ramp (though they all allow bicycles on some freeways; banned modes are signposted at the entrance). Oklahoma DOT doesn't post such signs, but prohibits nonmotorized access from highways with a minimum speed limit except when posted otherwise (in theory, there's a few such roads posted as a bike route, but I haven't found them yet), and annoyingly, doesn't post that a road has a minimum until you're well beyond a point of no return (and sometimes throws one on mid-block on an expressway without warning, so unless you know the road well, you get trapped by it). Though, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority does post, and on large, easily noticable signs, maximum legal widths, heights, weights, and modes (often explicitly banning pedestrians, bicycles, motor scooters, farm implements and animals). Last I heard, the consensus was reached: When it doubt, tag explicitly. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 01:41 +, Dave F. wrote: Hi Around my area in the UK a user is presently adding bicycle=no to all motorways. There was a discussion a while back whether it that tag was implied for motorways. If I remember, it was claimed there were some places (not UK) that allowed bicycles. What was the consensus? I'm not sure it's necessary. I think it should be implied bicycle=yes added if they are allowed. I did mail the mapper who added these and got the following reply. Because I want to. My edits are not vandalism, they are correct and so why I am doing them is not really germane now is it?. His deliberate choice of complex words that, I had to google. Had me thinking muppet. In my mind the restriction is in the name, Motor-way, Auto-bahn, Auto-route, Auto-Strada. I have driven on the first 3, and none allow cyclists. Where do we stop, if we override the implied tags do we then have to add pedestrian=no horse=no invalid_carriage=no learner_driver=no hgv_learner=yes tracked_vehicle=no agricultural_vehicle=no and so on. I know that in the US there is debate amongst mappers, whereas in most European countries the road number implies motorway (M in the UK and Ireland, A in France, Germany). The access points then have the international 'chopsticks' sign. In countries where cyclists are allowed I do wonder if they are really motorway, I mean legally, signposted, or if cyclists are allowed are they expressways and then maybe tagged as trunk. Phil attachment: 120px-Zeichen_330.svg.png___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I have had a quick look around Melbourne's motorway entrances on streetview and all I have looked at have a sign like this http://goo.gl/maps/0hC6c. Please can you point out one that does allow cyclists? Western Freeway: http://goo.gl/maps/XUWBF Hume Freeway: http://goo.gl/maps/Ze3qc I imagine that all the inter-city freeways allow it - just not within the perimeter of Melbourne itself maybe. You say Melbourne, I assume you mean Victoria? Allowing cities to have a separate highway code would be scarey. I expect to learn different rules when I drive in France, but not if I cross the border into Wales or Scotland. Err, that's what the signs are for... :) FWIW, there are slightly different rules in different states, like learners are limited to 80kph in NSW. Pretty sure the US is similar that way (I seem to recall that rules like right turn on red vary by state there). Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 23:25 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I have had a quick look around Melbourne's motorway entrances on streetview and all I have looked at have a sign like this http://goo.gl/maps/0hC6c. Please can you point out one that does allow cyclists? Western Freeway: http://goo.gl/maps/XUWBF Hume Freeway: http://goo.gl/maps/Ze3qc On first glance I am not sure I would consider those motorways, they look more like expressways to me. There are similar signs on Grade Separated trunk roads in the UK. I imagine that all the inter-city freeways allow it - just not within the perimeter of Melbourne itself maybe. You say Melbourne, I assume you mean Victoria? Allowing cities to have a separate highway code would be scarey. I expect to learn different rules when I drive in France, but not if I cross the border into Wales or Scotland. Err, that's what the signs are for... :) There are plenty of places where it is possible to cross between England and Wales where there are no signs. I am less familiar with the Scottish border, but other than it being a physical border (mountains) I imagine it is similar. But within Great Britain the rules are the same. I deliberately avoided United Kingdom. I know Northern Ireland has slightly different rules such as lower speed limits for recently qualified drivers. FWIW, there are slightly different rules in different states, like learners are limited to 80kph in NSW. Pretty sure the US is similar that way (I seem to recall that rules like right turn on red vary by state there). Different rules in different states, yes. Different cities, that is beyond what a driver can be expected to know. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:15 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Around my area in the UK a user is presently adding bicycle=no to all motorways. There was a discussion a while back whether it that tag was implied for motorways. If I remember, it was claimed there were some places (not UK) that allowed bicycles. What was the consensus? There are definitely plenty of motorways around the world that allow bicycles. Where I am (Melbourne, Australia), they do by default - those that forbid them have signs saying so. I have had a quick look around Melbourne's motorway entrances on streetview and all I have looked at have a sign like this http://goo.gl/maps/0hC6c. Please can you point out one that does allow cyclists? You say Melbourne, I assume you mean Victoria? Allowing cities to have a separate highway code would be scarey. I expect to learn different rules when I drive in France, but not if I cross the border into Wales or Scotland. Phil ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging In the USA, the rules about bicycles on Interstate highways (motorways, in OSM terms) vary from place to place. In the southeast USA, where I live, there are plenty of non-Interstate routes available, and I have never observed an Interstate on-ramp that lacked a sign forbidding non-motorized traffic. I have been told, however, that in the western USA, where lower population densities mean that there are also lower road densities, it is common for bicycles to be allowed to use Interstate shoulders. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On 09/02/2013 12:54, Philip Barnes wrote: On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 23:25 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: Err, that's what the signs are for... :) There are plenty of places where it is possible to cross between England and Wales where there are no signs. I am less familiar with the Scottish border, but other than it being a physical border (mountains) I imagine it is similar. But within Great Britain the rules are the same. I deliberately avoided United Kingdom. I know Northern Ireland has slightly different rules such as lower speed limits for recently qualified drivers. Powers to set speed limits have now been devolved, so the Scottish government could change the speed limit if they wanted. So far it looks like there's no plans to do so. If there is any change, I'm sure it will be clearly signposted, both at the border and within Scotland. Also a few other things devolved, eg the drink-driving limit. It looks like that will be reduced in Scotland soon. Craig ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 23:25 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I have had a quick look around Melbourne's motorway entrances on streetview and all I have looked at have a sign like this http://goo.gl/maps/0hC6c. Please can you point out one that does allow cyclists? Western Freeway: http://goo.gl/maps/XUWBF Hume Freeway: http://goo.gl/maps/Ze3qc On first glance I am not sure I would consider those motorways, they look more like expressways to me. There are similar signs on Grade Separated trunk roads in the UK. Any attempt at understanding the tag names in OSM only leads to madness (I repeat this to myself all the time). People love simple names instead of complex schemes. But remember the name you choose for a thing in your country means nothing in OSM, because some non-native speaker might already have defined that name to be something different. I can just +1 what Steve Bennet says: IMHO, the approach the wiki says that in country X, Y is the default, therefore I don't need to tag it is excessively optimistic. /Erik Johansson ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
That is correct. I once saw a sign on an I-76 onramp in northeast Colorado that said bicycles keep far right. My understanding is that it is acceptable to cycle on the interstate in this area if there is no reasonable alternate route. But nationwide I'm pretty sure this is the exception and I myself am inclined to assume bicycle=no on motorways. Toby On Feb 9, 2013 8:33 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:15 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Around my area in the UK a user is presently adding bicycle=no to all motorways. There was a discussion a while back whether it that tag was implied for motorways. If I remember, it was claimed there were some places (not UK) that allowed bicycles. What was the consensus? There are definitely plenty of motorways around the world that allow bicycles. Where I am (Melbourne, Australia), they do by default - those that forbid them have signs saying so. I have had a quick look around Melbourne's motorway entrances on streetview and all I have looked at have a sign like this http://goo.gl/maps/0hC6c. Please can you point out one that does allow cyclists? You say Melbourne, I assume you mean Victoria? Allowing cities to have a separate highway code would be scarey. I expect to learn different rules when I drive in France, but not if I cross the border into Wales or Scotland. Phil ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging In the USA, the rules about bicycles on Interstate highways (motorways, in OSM terms) vary from place to place. In the southeast USA, where I live, there are plenty of non-Interstate routes available, and I have never observed an Interstate on-ramp that lacked a sign forbidding non-motorized traffic. I have been told, however, that in the western USA, where lower population densities mean that there are also lower road densities, it is common for bicycles to be allowed to use Interstate shoulders. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 14:35 +, Craig Wallace wrote: On 09/02/2013 12:54, Philip Barnes wrote: On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 23:25 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: Err, that's what the signs are for... :) There are plenty of places where it is possible to cross between England and Wales where there are no signs. I am less familiar with the Scottish border, but other than it being a physical border (mountains) I imagine it is similar. But within Great Britain the rules are the same. I deliberately avoided United Kingdom. I know Northern Ireland has slightly different rules such as lower speed limits for recently qualified drivers. Powers to set speed limits have now been devolved, so the Scottish government could change the speed limit if they wanted. So far it looks like there's no plans to do so. If there is any change, I'm sure it will be clearly signposted, both at the border and within Scotland. Hopefully there will then be signs on all border crossings, again not sure if there are any unmarked ones. There certainly are lots between England and Wales, it is easy to not know which country you are in (until you come across an Araf, or a Slow without Araf that is). This is the Shrewsbury-Montgomery road, the border is the change in quality of the tarmac and the painted surveyors mark. No signs to be seen and quite easy to cross at 60mph. http://goo.gl/maps/PSWtT But this type of law differences are easy to deal with, differences laws in Manchester, Birmingham and Shrewsbury are less easy to keep track of. Also a few other things devolved, eg the drink-driving limit. It looks like that will be reduced in Scotland soon. I think the news the other week from Ireland shows it should be left as it is. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21143199 Phil ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
Hi Around my area in the UK a user is presently adding bicycle=no to all motorways. There was a discussion a while back whether it that tag was implied for motorways. If I remember, it was claimed there were some places (not UK) that allowed bicycles. What was the consensus? I'm not sure it's necessary. I think it should be implied bicycle=yes added if they are allowed. Cheers Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] bicycle-no on motorways
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Around my area in the UK a user is presently adding bicycle=no to all motorways. There was a discussion a while back whether it that tag was implied for motorways. If I remember, it was claimed there were some places (not UK) that allowed bicycles. What was the consensus? There are definitely plenty of motorways around the world that allow bicycles. Where I am (Melbourne, Australia), they do by default - those that forbid them have signs saying so. IMHO, the approach the wiki says that in country X, Y is the default, therefore I don't need to tag it is excessively optimistic. Until there is an automated, easy mechanism for querying defaults (ie, a web service), it's much safer to tag explicitly. Also: yes, someone should make such a web service. Something like: get_default_for_way(way_id, key_name) = returns implicit tag value for the specified key_name, or if none can be deduced. get_default_for_way_by_tags(lat,lon, way_tags*, key_name) = returns implicit tag value for the specified key_name, if the way were subject to the jurisdiction at lat,lon, and had the given way_tags. For that matter, a whole range of interpretive services would be really useful and give renderers, editors and mappers some certainty. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
