Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-18 14:43 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? Not sure what qualifies as a capital, but in Italy for instance there is no such thing like a state. There are regions (Regione, admin_level 4) and provinces (Provincia, admin_level 6) which both have elected governments and main places that are similar to capitals. Also municipalities (admin_level 8) have main places similar to a capital on the country level. In Germany there are several levels of administration, some of them elected directly, others aren't, but also there the term is not state and they all of them are different to the states of the USA (in competence, etc.). I really wouldn't like to use the term state_capital in either Italy or Germany as it wouldn't be clear what it refers to. This tagging also creates problems with classic (i.e. postgres without hstore) rendering setups because you would have to waste an entire column this way, which is almost never used. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-18 15:13 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: However, its most used value (capital=8) makes little sense (that represents the capital of an admin_level=8 area, which would be the capital of a city!; I think those mappers meant this capital is a city :P). I don't see capital=8 as missuse, you'd want this information at least in Italy. An admin_level 8 entity in Italy is a Comune which is something like a municipality, and which very often has several places inside (cities, towns, villages, etc.) one of which is generally the main place or capital (in Italian: capoluogo http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoluogowhich translates in Wikipedia to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef-lieu which is not exactly the same but a close fit and describing the phenomenon). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am Sonntag, den 18.05.2014, 09:43 -0300 schrieb John Packer: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? There are capitals identical with states. E.g. Hamburg, Germany. Also Berlin, Bremen. At the same time Berlin is, of course, the capital of Germany. I didn't read the whole thread and don´t know whether it's important in this case, just wanted to mention. Cheers, Wolfgang ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? If not, we could keep it simple: * capital=yes for country capitals * state_capital=yes for state capitals (already in use in some parts of America http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map). PS: Taginfo just released some new functionality, which allow us to compare the different uses of the different keys capital around the world: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/state_capital/capital_city/capital_level/is_capital/capital(note that as demonstrated before, around 90% of the current values of the key capital=* seems to be incorrectly tagged). I'm not saying we should use the others, just though it was interesting. 2014-05-16 7:07 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-05-16 12:00 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: For what apart from Rendering will this importance be usefull? And I still think it would be missleading and will lead to confusion. Someone who wants to look up all state capitals might just check all nodes for capital=4 (because it's the logical thing to do) not knowing that it can only be done correctly by also looking at relations. I don't see this as a problem. Looking for all state capitals is not within the scope of the capital tag, as you will miss those which are also capitals for bigger entities like countries. You might have to look up all capital=1/2/3/4/yes places and remove those which aren't state (level 4) capitals. Yes, rendering is probably the most important use case for this tag, why should that be a problem? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Following from TagInfo's link, if we adopt the most used practice as de facto, that would be capital=[lowest admin_level of respective regions], by a large margin. However, its most used value (capital=8) makes little sense (that represents the capital of an admin_level=8 area, which would be the capital of a city!; I think those mappers meant this capital is a city :P). The yes value is used almost as often as 4, but then there are 6 and 7 (representing capitals of areas that are not really equivalent to states) which make the yes value less common by far (yet those could also be the same mistaken case of capital=8). I think capital=[number] is fine as long as people understand (so we should note that on the wiki article) that relations should be properly set up to refer to capitals as admin_centre (except where the two are different cities). If that the purpose of this tag is mostly (if not only) to help renderers do their job with lower processing complexity, I think we should discourage applying multiple values (e.g. 2;4;6;7;8). Note: and in Brazil, we still need to discuss with the local community if it makes any sense to tag statistical regions (admin_level=3/5/6/7) without administrative or political power as boundary=administrative (perhaps boundary=political or a new value would make more sense) before we recommend tagging their main cities with capital=[number]. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:43 AM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? If not, we could keep it simple: * capital=yes for country capitals * state_capital=yes for state capitals (already in use in some parts of America). PS: Taginfo just released some new functionality, which allow us to compare the different uses of the different keys capital around the world: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/state_capital/capital_city/capital_level/is_capital/capital (note that as demonstrated before, around 90% of the current values of the key capital=* seems to be incorrectly tagged). I'm not saying we should use the others, just though it was interesting. 2014-05-16 7:07 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-05-16 12:00 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: For what apart from Rendering will this importance be usefull? And I still think it would be missleading and will lead to confusion. Someone who wants to look up all state capitals might just check all nodes for capital=4 (because it's the logical thing to do) not knowing that it can only be done correctly by also looking at relations. I don't see this as a problem. Looking for all state capitals is not within the scope of the capital tag, as you will miss those which are also capitals for bigger entities like countries. You might have to look up all capital=1/2/3/4/yes places and remove those which aren't state (level 4) capitals. Yes, rendering is probably the most important use case for this tag, why should that be a problem? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/18/14 14:43 , schrieb John Packer: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? If not, we could keep it simple: * capital=yes for country capitals * state_capital=yes for state capitals (already in use in some parts of America http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map). See box on the right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberallg%C3%A4u __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:43 PM John Pakker wrote: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? Italy has both regions and provinces. For example: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abruzzo (Region) Capital: L'Aquila - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Chieti (Province) Capital: Chieti (and the main town of a comune is technically a capital too). So L'Aquila is the capital of the Region and its own Province too. Rome is the capital of Italy, of the Region of Lazio, and the Province of Rome.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Oberallgäu is currently mapped as a political (not an administrative) boundary, so Sonthofen would be neither a capital, nor an administrative center of any relation. Correctly, its node has no capital=* or admin_level=* tags. Swabia, on the other hand, has its government seat in Augsburg, and its node currently has no capital=* nor admin_level=* tags. Government seat is not the same thing as a capital (as pointed out earlier), so it seems correctly mapped too. Bavaria, a state (admin_level=4), has it's capital Munich's node tagged with capital=4, which seems to agree with the rule of tagging the capital city as capital=[lowest admin level of all regions that have it as capital]. If it were Germany's capital (as is Berlin), the node would be tagged as capital=2 by this pattern. However, capital=* and state_capital=* would also work to describe this particular situation because government seat is not the same thing as a capital (they often are the same city, but not always). So, for the sake of clarity, I think it would be acceptable if we agreed that: - we place capital=* on actual capitals (not any admin_centre), since using numbers is more flexible than capital=yes and state_capital=yes (equivalent to capital=2 and capital=4) - what the admin_centre role refers to is a government seat, and in some rare situations there may be more than one - we define a capital role in administrative boundary relations for those rare cases where capital and government seat are different cities Also it seems that rendering programs are more concerned with the concept of capital than government seat, so it shouldn't be necessary (at least not yet) to arrange another tag for nodes (such as the capital tag) to identify them. By this reasoning, Berlin's node would be tagged as capital=2 (as would any country capital). And perhaps some rendering programs out there (Mapnik/Carto, osmarender, and others) would need to be tweaked to support this value. Well, this is me thinking about all per country variations. In Brazil, we would end up only using capital=2 for Brasília and capital=4 for all state capitals. If capital=2 is not yet supported by apps, then maybe we could copy Berlin temporarily (capital=yes+admin_level=2), but at least knowing what the future tagging goal is. (We can just leave a note on the node explaining that.) On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Am 5/18/14 14:43 , schrieb John Packer: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? If not, we could keep it simple: * capital=yes for country capitals * state_capital=yes for state capitals (already in use in some parts of America http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map). See box on the right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberallg%C3%A4u __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
These could be tagged as follows: - Italy's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=2 - Rome's node: capital=2 - Lazio's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=4 - Province of Rome's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=6 - City of Rome's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=8 And: - Abruzzo's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=4 - L'Aquila's node: capital=4 - Commune of L'Aquila's admin boundary relation: admin_level=6 - City of L'Aquila's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=8 How should one render the labels for Rome and L'Aquila? With predefined styles for a country capital and for a state capital, respectively. (There may be many levels of capitals.) Then renderers would read that information from Rome's and L'Aquila's nodes' capital=* tag. What is Rome a capital of? You'd have to look up: - all relations that refer to Rome's node with a role admin_centre which have no capital role - all relations that refer to Rome's node with a role capital (Or we can keep it simple and define the capital role and ignore the admin_centre role altogether when answering this question.) Who would be interested in knowing what Rome is a capital of? Besides renderers (which often render a larger icon and larger fonts for capitals), probably only an atlas app or something similar. This information makes little difference for routing or geocoding. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Frank Little frank...@xs4all.nl wrote: Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:43 PM John Pakker wrote: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? Italy has both regions and provinces. For example: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abruzzo (Region) Capital: L'Aquila - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Chieti (Province) Capital: Chieti (and the main town of a comune is technically a capital too). So L'Aquila is the capital of the Region and its own Province too. Rome is the capital of Italy, of the Region of Lazio, and the Province of Rome. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Correction: renderers would not be interested in knowing what Rome is a capital of to render an icon and a label for it, but only what kind of capital it is (country capital, state capital, province capital, etc.). On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: These could be tagged as follows: - Italy's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=2 - Rome's node: capital=2 - Lazio's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=4 - Province of Rome's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=6 - City of Rome's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=8 And: - Abruzzo's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=4 - L'Aquila's node: capital=4 - Commune of L'Aquila's admin boundary relation: admin_level=6 - City of L'Aquila's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=8 How should one render the labels for Rome and L'Aquila? With predefined styles for a country capital and for a state capital, respectively. (There may be many levels of capitals.) Then renderers would read that information from Rome's and L'Aquila's nodes' capital=* tag. What is Rome a capital of? You'd have to look up: - all relations that refer to Rome's node with a role admin_centre which have no capital role - all relations that refer to Rome's node with a role capital (Or we can keep it simple and define the capital role and ignore the admin_centre role altogether when answering this question.) Who would be interested in knowing what Rome is a capital of? Besides renderers (which often render a larger icon and larger fonts for capitals), probably only an atlas app or something similar. This information makes little difference for routing or geocoding. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Frank Little frank...@xs4all.nl wrote: Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:43 PM John Pakker wrote: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? Italy has both regions and provinces. For example: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abruzzo (Region) Capital: L'Aquila - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Chieti (Province) Capital: Chieti (and the main town of a comune is technically a capital too). So L'Aquila is the capital of the Region and its own Province too. Rome is the capital of Italy, of the Region of Lazio, and the Province of Rome. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On May 18, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: Am 5/18/14 14:43 , schrieb John Packer: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? If not, we could keep it simple: * capital=yes for country capitals * state_capital=yes for state capitals (already in use in some parts of America http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map). See box on the right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberallg%C3%A4u For what it is worth, most US states are divided into counties and each county has its own law enforcement (county sheriff), court system, and an elected board of supervisors. In the counties and states I am familiar with the main offices and meeting location for the board of supervisors is in the county seat. So county seat sounds pretty much like a capital city to me. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/19/14 02:27 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Oberallgäu is currently mapped as a political (not an administrative) boundary, so Sonthofen would be neither a capital, nor an administrative center of any relation. Correctly, its node has no capital=* or admin_level=* tags. http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/62415 for the sake of clarity, I think it would be acceptable if we agreed that: - we place capital=* on actual capitals (not any admin_centre), since using numbers is more flexible than capital=yes and state_capital=yes (equivalent to capital=2 and capital=4) - what the admin_centre role refers to is a government seat, and in some rare situations there may be more than one - we define a capital role in administrative boundary relations for those rare cases where capital and government seat are different cities I simply don't like the idea of duplicate redundandant tags for the sake of there renderer, when the only argument in favour of it so far seems to be less effort to calculate it. Especially when looking for a long term solution and considering how different this is in different countries with all the exceptions. Not to mention that OpenStreetMap is a database in the first place. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 2:51 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: And some of these relations (though far from the top of the list) are not assigned an admin_centre role, even though the node exists. btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that admin_centre should be used one or no time in the relation, but what if there is more than one admin_centre, e.g. entities where the administration is split over 2 (or maybe more) places? My suggestion would be to change this part of the relation definition in order to allow special cases: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary It seems that German capitals follow the pattern capital=[lowest admin_level of relations in which the city is admin_centre], except Berlin. because Berlin has the capital=yes (because of current mapnik rules capital=yes should be preferred over capital=2, as the style sheet only takes account of capital=yes or not yes: *https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml ).* *cheers,Martin* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that admin_centre should be used one or no time in the relation, but what if there is more than one admin_centre, e.g. entities where the administration is split over 2 (or maybe more) places? My suggestion would be to change this part of the relation definition in order to allow special cases: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary Why not. But the definition shall be clear : it's only the administrative(s) centre(s) place(s) to be linked. The risk if we don't specify a limit is that contributors will use it to link all places within the boundary (making a substitute of the infamous is_in tag). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 13:09 GMT+02:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Why not. But the definition shall be clear : it's only the administrative(s) centre(s) place(s) to be linked. The risk if we don't specify a limit is that contributors will use it to link all places within the boundary (making a substitute of the infamous is_in tag). yes, of course we should only declare those places as admin_centres that are indeed administrative centres (having an administration office is maybe not enough to be a centre). I was thinking of places like these: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Barletta-Andria-Trani (Italian Province with 3 admin centres) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Carbonia-Iglesias (a Province with 2 centres). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Interesting. So it is in fact a rendered-related issue. Since you've pointed out exactly where the problem is in the code, wouldn't it be better to just submit a fix and standardize the mapping practice on capital=[lowest admin_level of related boundary relations]? AFAIK this should only affect rendering programs (not routing nor indexing). On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 6:31 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-05-15 2:51 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: And some of these relations (though far from the top of the list) are not assigned an admin_centre role, even though the node exists. btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that admin_centre should be used one or no time in the relation, but what if there is more than one admin_centre, e.g. entities where the administration is split over 2 (or maybe more) places? My suggestion would be to change this part of the relation definition in order to allow special cases: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary It seems that German capitals follow the pattern capital=[lowest admin_level of relations in which the city is admin_centre], except Berlin. because Berlin has the capital=yes (because of current mapnik rules capital=yes should be preferred over capital=2, as the style sheet only takes account of capital=yes or not yes: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml ). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
(because of current mapnik rules capital=yes should be preferred over capital=2, as the style sheet only takes account of capital=yes or not yes: *https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml ).* I disagree with that. capital=yes is ambiguous and capital=2 should be preferred Mapnik rules can be changed as time allows. I wouldn't be surprised capital=yes isn't really used only on capital=2 cases. When there are more than one admin_centre, perhaps we could simply use the role label instead of the role admin_centre. It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as it's capital city administrative centre. (example of the label role: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/539668890 ) 2014-05-15 8:36 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-05-15 13:09 GMT+02:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Why not. But the definition shall be clear : it's only the administrative(s) centre(s) place(s) to be linked. The risk if we don't specify a limit is that contributors will use it to link all places within the boundary (making a substitute of the infamous is_in tag). yes, of course we should only declare those places as admin_centres that are indeed administrative centres (having an administration office is maybe not enough to be a centre). I was thinking of places like these: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Barletta-Andria-Trani (Italian Province with 3 admin centres) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Carbonia-Iglesias (a Province with 2 centres). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as it's capital city administrative centre. (example of the label role: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/539668890) Not necessarily though. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands and located in North Holland province, but not the capital of that province (which is Haarlem). Some more strange cases: - The administratively centre is not always equal to the ceremonial capital. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, but The Hague is the administrative centre. - The administrative centre of a region might be licated outside the region in administers. For example, the city of Częstochowa is the administrative centre of Częstochowa county, but the city is not part of the county (the county forms a ring around the city). -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Sorry, I meant the adminstrative centre of the state's capital city It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as *the state's *capital city administrative centre. 2014-05-15 9:23 GMT-03:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as it's capital city administrative centre. (example of the label role: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/539668890 ) Not necessarily though. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands and located in North Holland province, but not the capital of that province (which is Haarlem). Some more strange cases: - The administratively centre is not always equal to the ceremonial capital. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, but The Hague is the administrative centre. - The administrative centre of a region might be licated outside the region in administers. For example, the city of Częstochowa is the administrative centre of Częstochowa county, but the city is not part of the county (the county forms a ring around the city). -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Some more strange cases: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On 5/15/14 8:57 AM, Pieren wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Some more strange cases: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). some definitions to keep in mind: capital - a city serving as a seat of government capitol - building in which a state legislature meets these are US usage, not sure if British usage is different. http://www.50states.com/tools/use.htm#.U3S811hdX4o richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 15.05.2014 14:57, schrieb Pieren: On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Some more strange cases: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). So far I did use admin_centre only for the capital but I guess this does not work in the Netherlands where the capital is not the seat of the parliament. Another example for multi-admin-centres are the Azores. There the executive, legislative and judicial branches have been split to different cities on different islands. All together it seems we need to separate admin_centre and capital as soon as they are different and/or as soon as more than one admin_centre is defined. Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On 15/05/2014 13:23, Matthijs Melissen wrote: - The administrative centre of a region might be licated outside the region in administers. For example, the city of Częstochowa is the administrative centre of Częstochowa county, but the city is not part of the county (the county forms a ring around the city). This is even more true of Surrey in England, whose county town (capital) is Kingston in the neighbouring Greater London: http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/57582?mlat=51.4049540555035mlon=-0.305049035418748#map=10/51.2787/-0.3296 -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 15:12 GMT+02:00 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). some definitions to keep in mind: capital - a city serving as a seat of government capitol - building in which a state legislature meets these are US usage, not sure if British usage is different. capital should be for the capital city as it usually is defined in the constitution or some other law, and should not be confused with the seat of the government (IMHO). The US isn't a good example because the capital happens to be the same as the seat of government. Capitol is the name of the building of the american Congress, I am not aware of other countries using this term and I wouldn't include this into the country relation but would rather use a distinct tag to make it retrievable. For the seat of government I'd use a new role (seat_of_government seams intuitive). This might imply new problems in some cases btw., for instance in Germany parts of the government (6 federal ministries and all second seats of the other ministries) remained in Bonn as part of the compromise settled when the parliament decided to transfer the seat of government to Berlin in the 1990ies. cheer, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 18:32 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. +1 The idea of adding capital=numeric to place nodes was to have a simple tag for administrative importance. This is not an alternative to add a place as admin_centre into a proper administrative relation. Keep it simple, use the lowest number. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Wait a minute. As far as I understood, the key capital=* isn't supposed to simply substitute admin_level. capital=2 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this country (which has admin_level=2). capital=4 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this state (which usually has admin_level=4) capital=2;4 would mean this city is the capital city of the country AND state. Is my current understanding of this key wrong? 2014-05-15 13:32 GMT-03:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 18:52 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: Wait a minute. As far as I understood, the key capital=* isn't supposed to simply substitute admin_level. capital=2 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this country (which has admin_level=2). capital=4 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this state (which usually has admin_level=4) capital=2;4 would mean this city is the capital city of the country AND state. Is my current understanding of this key wrong? I'd see it like this: capital=2 this place is the capital of a country capital=4 this place is the capital of a region (etc.) i.e. you can see the administrative importance, but there is no notion of which entity the place is the capital. capital=2;4 doesn't make much sense then. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
I'd see it like this: capital=2 this place is the capital of a country capital=4 this place is the capital of a region (etc.) i.e. you can see the administrative importance, but there is no notion of which entity the place is the capital. capital=2;4 doesn't make much sense then. You are ignoring that most (BUT NOT ALL!!!) country capitals are also state (region) capitals. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 15.05.2014 18:32, schrieb Andreas Goss: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. I meant additional to the roles for the boundary relation above (cutted). admin_centre for 1 or more nodes capital if not equal to admin_centre or more than one admin_centre present. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. As we are talking about admin_level (- capital) on nodes and it was mentioned that it might be easier to use and I am not sure if it is used. If any I would go with capital=* and not admin_level=* You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Tagging capital=* or admin_level=* on a place is IMHO not to be done lightly. It is not actually an attribute of the place at all, because if you moved the place to e.g. the middle of the Atlantic Ocean it would no longer be a capital. It is an attribute of the relationship between the place and an (administrative) area. So the place and the area (represented by a relation in OSM) may reference each other, for example by including the place in the relation with a role such as admin_centre. Because a place cannot be a capital in and of itself (it can only be a capital OF somewhere) putting these tags on the place node is a denormalisation - to make things more convenient for the data consumers, so they don't have to go through the relations to see if a place is a capital or not. Such denormalisations are not always a Bad Thing (it's a balance), but there must be an acceptance that there is only One Truth, and zero or more derivatives. The One Truth would be in the relations and we will need a mechanism (or at least an algorithm) to derive the tagging for the place from the relations which reference it. capital=2 only means it's the capital of A country. Without a link to the country in question, this tag could be misused to increase prominence on the maps, AKA mapping (incorrectly) for the renderer, which is frowned upon. So I say let's ban capital=* and admin_level=* on the place nodes! Colin. On 2014-05-15 19:36, fly wrote: Am 15.05.2014 18:32, schrieb Andreas Goss: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. I meant additional to the roles for the boundary relation above (cutted). admin_centre for 1 or more nodes capital if not equal to admin_centre or more than one admin_centre present. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. As we are talking about admin_level (- capital) on nodes and it was mentioned that it might be easier to use and I am not sure if it is used. If any I would go with capital=* and not admin_level=* You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: It is not actually an attribute of the place at all, because if you moved the place to e.g. the middle of the Atlantic Ocean it would no longer be a capital. It is an attribute of the relationship between the place and an (administrative) area. So the place and the area (represented by a relation in OSM) may reference each other, for example by including the place in the relation with a role such as admin_centre. Because a place cannot be a capital in and of itself (it can only be a capital OF somewhere) putting these tags on the place node is a denormalisation - to make things more convenient for the data consumers, so they don't have to go through the relations to see if a place is a capital or not. Such denormalisations are not always a Bad Thing (it's a balance), but there must be an acceptance that there is only One Truth, and zero or more derivatives. The One Truth would be in the relations and we will need a mechanism (or at least an algorithm) to derive the tagging for the place from the relations which reference it. +1 Note: because apps need to support certain kinds of relations (turn restrictions, multipolygon rendering, etc.), it should be easy (as far as I can imagine the algorithm) to extend such support (without sacrificing performance) to figure out whether a city is a capital by reading the list of members of the relations the city's node is a member of. capital=2 only means it's the capital of A country. Without a link to the country in question, this tag could be misused to increase prominence on the maps, AKA mapping (incorrectly) for the renderer, which is frowned upon. +1 So I say let's ban capital=* and admin_level=* on the place nodes! I tend to agree, and I don't see yet any practical situation where using those tags is absolutely necessary and reading from a relation is not possible/too difficult. Colin. On 2014-05-15 19:36, fly wrote: Am 15.05.2014 18:32, schrieb Andreas Goss: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. I meant additional to the roles for the boundary relation above (cutted). admin_centre for 1 or more nodes capital if not equal to admin_centre or more than one admin_centre present. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. As we are talking about admin_level (- capital) on nodes and it was mentioned that it might be easier to use and I am not sure if it is used. If any I would go with capital=* and not admin_level=* You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Interesting. So how is capital=* being used in Europe? On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 2:27 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Am 5/13/14 17:40 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: So if you know how it's being done in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to describe it here briefly. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map Pretty much answers that for state_capital=. Outside North South America as well as Pakistan state_capital= is bascially not used at all. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/14/14 17:06 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Interesting. So how is capital=* being used in Europe? Just running the overpass API with capital* over some countries: Spain: Using capital=8 extensivly (!!!) together with admin_level=8 not really using 4 or 6 though. France, Italy have some capital=6 (Not many) Germany, Romania some capital=4 Russia and to a small extent Ukraine capital=yes with admin_level=4 Lithania some capital=name Portugal, Beglium, Netherlands, Norway, Danmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic taginfo=capital(except for maybe capital=2 and a few random tags Looks similar for most countries in Eastern Europe but didn't check every single one. = Overall it seems like the high number of capital= usage mostly comes from Spain. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
... Czech Republic taginfo=capital what do you mean? So it seems that, except for Russia, the most common practice is as described in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/capital#Notes_on_actual_usage . We should probaby vote on this proposal now and make this the default practice. This makes admin_level unnecessary on any place nodes. It's easy to retag capitals in Brazil, and it would probably be easy in North America and in Russia too. But local apps might not like it very much. In Russia, apps could continue using admin_level for a while and slowly migrate the capital=[number] tag. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Am 5/14/14 17:06 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Interesting. So how is capital=* being used in Europe? Just running the overpass API with capital* over some countries: Spain: Using capital=8 extensivly (!!!) together with admin_level=8 not really using 4 or 6 though. France, Italy have some capital=6 (Not many) Germany, Romania some capital=4 Russia and to a small extent Ukraine capital=yes with admin_level=4 Lithania some capital=name Portugal, Beglium, Netherlands, Norway, Danmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic taginfo=capital(except for maybe capital=2 and a few random tags Looks similar for most countries in Eastern Europe but didn't check every single one. = Overall it seems like the high number of capital= usage mostly comes from Spain. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
... Czech Republic taginfo=capital what do you mean? Ooops. Must have deleted a line there. Bascally they are not using capital= at all apart for some exceptions as you can also see on taginfo. We should probaby vote on this proposal now and make this the default practice. This makes admin_level unnecessary on any place nodes. In my opinion it is still flat out WRONG to use capital=[number] or admin_level=[number] on place nodes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/capital#Combination_with_admin_level (see 5th comment by Marnen) __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Following from Aleksandr Dezhin's Why not use admin_level=* without capital=yes? in that wiki talk page, why not? Any place=city/town with admin_level=2 is a country capital. Any place=city/town/village with admin_level=4 is a state capital (at least in Brazil). This would remove the need for a capital=* tag. Non-capital cities would have admin_level=8. What happens if the place node has a different admin_level than specified by the relation would be... totally application-specific. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: ... Czech Republic taginfo=capital what do you mean? Ooops. Must have deleted a line there. Bascally they are not using capital= at all apart for some exceptions as you can also see on taginfo. We should probaby vote on this proposal now and make this the default practice. This makes admin_level unnecessary on any place nodes. In my opinion it is still flat out WRONG to use capital=[number] or admin_level=[number] on place nodes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/capital#Combination_with_admin_level (see 5th comment by Marnen) __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/14/14 23:29 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Any place=city/town/village with admin_level=4 is a state capital (at least in Brazil). What about your capital? According to Wikkipedia that's a capital of the Federal District, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras%C3%ADlia __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Brasília is the only exception which is a capital of two different administrative levels. And both the relations for the federal district [1] and the country [2] correctly express that idea. I know it's not a rule that applies to every country, and precisely because of that it would make even more sense to think about relations rather than node tags to express the idea of a capital generically. [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/421151 [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/59470 On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Am 5/14/14 23:29 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Any place=city/town/village with admin_level=4 is a state capital (at least in Brazil). What about your capital? According to Wikkipedia that's a capital of the Federal District, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras%C3%ADlia __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/15/14 01:10 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Brasília is the only exception which is a capital of two different administrative levels. And both the relations for the federal district [1] and the country [2] correctly express that idea. As long as you only look at admin_level=2 and =4 But even so what's the use of tagging it on the node when there are exceptions? I know it's not a rule that applies to every country, and precisely because of that it would make even more sense to think about relations rather than node tags to express the idea of a capital generically. Exacly, so why tag the level number on the node when we have relations and can incude the capitals as role:admin_centre? And then there are no exceptions. Which is how it is usually done here in Germany. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Exacly, so why tag the level number on the node when we have relations and can incude the capitals as role:admin_centre? And then there are no exceptions. Which is how it is usually done here in Germany. I've checked the first 15 cities in this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Germany_by_population And it seems that in Germany's city nodes: - the federal capital is tagged with capital=yes+admin_level=2: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/240109189 - state capitals are tagged with capital=4, some (though far from the top of the list) also have is_capital=state - others have neither capital nor admin_level tags Things I did not understand: - Leipzig has is_capital=county on the node but admin_level=6 on the relation - Nurenberg has capital=5 on the node but admin_level=6 on the relation And some of these relations (though far from the top of the list) are not assigned an admin_centre role, even though the node exists. It seems that German capitals follow the pattern capital=[lowest admin_level of relations in which the city is admin_centre], except Berlin. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Following from the previous discussion (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html), it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to describe it here briefly. We will write a wiki article about it. I'll start with mine, Brazil: - Brasília [1] [2], which is the political capital but not the largest city, has capital=yes - São Paulo [3] [4], which is the capital of the São Paulo state, has state_capital=yes - Campinas [5] [6], which is a regular city (though a very large and important), has neither of those tags None of them have admin_level=* tags. Brasília's relation is actually missing a capital=yes tag, but I'll wait to hear you before adding it (or removing it from others' relations). [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/34567423 [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2758138 [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/30674098 [4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298285 [5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/32070447 [6] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298227 -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
None of them have admin_level=* tags. should have been None of them have admin_level=* tags on the nodes, only in relations. On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Following from the previous discussion (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html), it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to describe it here briefly. We will write a wiki article about it. I'll start with mine, Brazil: - Brasília [1] [2], which is the political capital but not the largest city, has capital=yes - São Paulo [3] [4], which is the capital of the São Paulo state, has state_capital=yes - Campinas [5] [6], which is a regular city (though a very large and important), has neither of those tags None of them have admin_level=* tags. Brasília's relation is actually missing a capital=yes tag, but I'll wait to hear you before adding it (or removing it from others' relations). [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/34567423 [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2758138 [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/30674098 [4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298285 [5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/32070447 [6] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298227 -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
More information: All 48 nodes with capital=10 have admin_level=10 19 nodes out of 122 with capital=7 also have admin_level=7 21 nodes out of 331 with capital=6 also have admin_level=6 (this one came from that Spain import) 94 nodes out of 427 with capital=4 also have admin_level=4 182 nodes out of 346 with capital=yes also have admin_level=2 2014-05-13 13:41 GMT-03:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: None of them have admin_level=* tags. should have been None of them have admin_level=* tags on the nodes, only in relations. On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Following from the previous discussion (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html ), it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to describe it here briefly. We will write a wiki article about it. I'll start with mine, Brazil: - Brasília [1] [2], which is the political capital but not the largest city, has capital=yes - São Paulo [3] [4], which is the capital of the São Paulo state, has state_capital=yes - Campinas [5] [6], which is a regular city (though a very large and important), has neither of those tags None of them have admin_level=* tags. Brasília's relation is actually missing a capital=yes tag, but I'll wait to hear you before adding it (or removing it from others' relations). [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/34567423 [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2758138 [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/30674098 [4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298285 [5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/32070447 [6] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/298227 -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/13/14 17:40 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: So if you know how it's being done in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to describe it here briefly. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map Pretty much answers that for state_capital=. Outside North South America as well as Pakistan state_capital= is bascially not used at all. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
