Re: [Tagging] courtyards
2015-02-09 8:42 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann : > We need to be able to map partially enclosed courtyards as well, e.g.: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.17839/16.34189 > (The courtyards are named Hof 1 ... Hof 7.) > +1 it really shouldn't matter, we can always draw an area. > > But I agree that a courtyard *typically* is fully enclosed by buildings, > thus not an emergency feature. > especially in Vienna and Berlin, and in these Hof 1- Hof 7 cases, these courtyards are typically connected by a private way leading to the public street. Also entering the courtyard itself will already be considered "being safe" in many cases. In other cases (even small courtyards, e.g. the first building law in Berlin regarding courtyards and dating to the 19th century, requested them to be at least 5 x 5m because this was the area a fire fighter device in that time needed to turn around). > There's an approved tag entrance=emergency > for emergency exits, and I'd suggest a tag like emergency=access for spots > and alleys designed to be accessible for fire fighters. > Yes, the emergency function shouldn't be "tag name defining function" for a courtyard, I agree. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
On 09.02.2015 16:01, Stephen Gower wrote: > Here in Oxford (where we have many examples of named quadrangles/courtyards) > I see examples where they are tagged as highway=footway areas (e.g. > http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301895528 ) but more often the central > section of lawn has been named (e.g. > http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/228244550 ) > > In reality, it is neither the paving or the lawn that is the named feature, > it's the architectual feature containing these and itself bounded by the > buildings (although in the case of cloistered courtyards, the covered > arcades around the edge are arguably both part of the building and the > courtyard). I support creation of a tag for more consistantly marking these > named features, but I have no idea where in the tagging structure it is > best placed (building/landuse/amenity/etc all have their problems). I had essentially the same thoughts. (That's why I started this discussion.) I'm now in favour of man_made=courtyard, because it is man made (as opposed to natural) without doubt, and it is similar to man_made=cutline. Both cutlines and courtyards are intentionally empty spaces, and both are only defined by their sourroundings. man_made=courtyard does not conflict with other tags. It can be combined with leisure=*, landuse=* etc., and I can't imagine any other man_made=* feature that is congruent with a courtyard. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 11:14:17PM +0100, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > Courtyards use to be mapped as "inner" members of building multipolygons. We > can also use the multipolygon relation to assign a name to the bullding. If > we want to assign a name to the courtyard, we must assign it to the way. But > then we need some kind of physical tag in addition. Applications won't know > what do do with the name when there aren't any other tags. Here in Oxford (where we have many examples of named quadrangles/courtyards) I see examples where they are tagged as highway=footway areas (e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301895528 ) but more often the central section of lawn has been named (e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/228244550 ) In reality, it is neither the paving or the lawn that is the named feature, it's the architectual feature containing these and itself bounded by the buildings (although in the case of cloistered courtyards, the covered arcades around the edge are arguably both part of the building and the courtyard). I support creation of a tag for more consistantly marking these named features, but I have no idea where in the tagging structure it is best placed (building/landuse/amenity/etc all have their problems). S ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
Here's another variation: the courtyard of Limerick's Milk Market: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/115572313 It was originally open at the top, but now has a canopy that covers most of it; and it's not a leisure facility. __John On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > On 08.02.2015 22:17, Warin wrote: > >>> >From a technical point of view they are typically associated with fire >>> >protection (way to leave the building, access for firefighters), >> >> If the courtyard is fully enclosed by buildings or by one building .. they >> are not part of a fire escape (protection), those require exit to an open >> area - not one that is fully enclosed. So the use as fire protection will >> depend on the courtyard. And my thinking is that a true 'courtyard' is >> fully enclosed? > > We need to be able to map partially enclosed courtyards as well, e.g.: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.17839/16.34189 > (The courtyards are named Hof 1 ... Hof 7.) > > But I agree that a courtyard *typically* is fully enclosed by buildings, > thus not an emergency feature. There's an approved tag entrance=emergency > for emergency exits, and I'd suggest a tag like emergency=access for spots > and alleys designed to be accessible for fire fighters. > > I think that, from a technical point view, the main function of a courtyard > is to yield sunlight to building rooms that are not adjacent to the > building's outer margin. All other uses, such as recreation, parking or > emergency access, are subsequent. > > -- > Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ > Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
On 08.02.2015 22:17, Warin wrote: >> >From a technical point of view they are typically associated with fire >> >protection (way to leave the building, access for firefighters), > > If the courtyard is fully enclosed by buildings or by one building .. they > are not part of a fire escape (protection), those require exit to an open > area - not one that is fully enclosed. So the use as fire protection will > depend on the courtyard. And my thinking is that a true 'courtyard' is > fully enclosed? We need to be able to map partially enclosed courtyards as well, e.g.: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.17839/16.34189 (The courtyards are named Hof 1 ... Hof 7.) But I agree that a courtyard *typically* is fully enclosed by buildings, thus not an emergency feature. There's an approved tag entrance=emergency for emergency exits, and I'd suggest a tag like emergency=access for spots and alleys designed to be accessible for fire fighters. I think that, from a technical point view, the main function of a courtyard is to yield sunlight to building rooms that are not adjacent to the building's outer margin. All other uses, such as recreation, parking or emergency access, are subsequent. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > in architecture you'd definitely consider a courtyard part of a building, > and volumes are distinguished in fully closed, open at the top and closed > on top but open at the sides (at least in German building codes aka DIN), > but if we have clear definitions for OSM that volumes open on one or more > sides aren't to be considered building parts, I'll take that back. > A very common pattern in the USA is an interior courtyard at the pedestal level: meaning above the parking garage. There's typically one or more underground levels. The ground floor is parking perhaps with shallow depth retail stores. There are zero or more additional parking levels. Then a central courtyard surrounded by apartments. The courtyard is open to the sky. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
On 9/02/2015 1:47 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: From a technical point of view they are typically associated with fire protection (way to leave the building, access for firefighters), If the courtyard is fully enclosed by buildings or by one building .. they are not part of a fire escape (protection), those require exit to an open area - not one that is fully enclosed. So the use as fire protection will depend on the courtyard. And my thinking is that a true 'courtyard' is fully enclosed? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
> Am 08.02.2015 um 16:14 schrieb Tobias Knerr : > > No, it definitely wouldn't. The building:part key has a clear definition > e.g. in the context of 3D rendering that does not fit for courtyards at > all. All building:part elements need to represent filled-out volumes > rather than empty volumes like a courtyard. in architecture you'd definitely consider a courtyard part of a building, and volumes are distinguished in fully closed, open at the top and closed on top but open at the sides (at least in German building codes aka DIN), but if we have clear definitions for OSM that volumes open on one or more sides aren't to be considered building parts, I'll take that back. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
2015-02-08 15:47 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer : > > maybe building:part=courtyard would be a good tag semantic wise (but > unlikely to be rendered on the main style) > +1 That's the first one that came to my mind. That is a part of the building. When I was mapping manors I would put building=manor on the multipolygon, and historic=manor + name=* on the outer way, precisely because I thought that the courtyard was a part of the manor. In the same vein, courtyard is in a way part of the building. If you remove the building, you effectively remove the courtyard. I think this is a great solution that removes the need to make multipolygons for buildings that have a courtyard. Although I'm sure it will meet a lot of resistance. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
On 08.02.2015 15:47, wrote Martin Koppenhoefer: > I am not in favour of place (neither locality nor courtyard), maybe > building:part=courtyard would be a good tag semantic wise No, it definitely wouldn't. The building:part key has a clear definition e.g. in the context of 3D rendering that does not fit for courtyards at all. All building:part elements need to represent filled-out volumes rather than empty volumes like a courtyard. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
I appreciate that you bring this up, and share the analysis that neither highway pedestrian nor leisure=* are describing a courtyard (it might be accessible to cars, not accessible at all, could have a leisure related aspect but doesn't have to, etc.). From a technical point of view they are typically associated with fire protection (way to leave the building, access for firefighters), ventilation and natural illumination, building access (also to lateral and underground building parts) and also parking. Whether or not they exist depends a lot on the depth of the block. In some cases they have names, rich decoration, ref numbers etc., so a dedicated tag to say "courtyard" is indeed needed/desirable IMHO. I am not in favour of place (neither locality nor courtyard), maybe building:part=courtyard would be a good tag semantic wise (but unlikely to be rendered on the main style), alternative values might be backyard or court (the latter could be confused with courthouse so I'd not recommend it). If we'd to choose from currently imported keys I'd suggest man_made. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
On 7/02/2015 6:03 PM, Alex Rollin wrote: imho a courtyard is related to leisure. why for: because a courtyard matters to people with leisure time and it is a luxury of sorts. why against: perhaps a courtyard is a sequestered area/way as it is often tagger highway designated footpath as an area, an area that is a Very big way for foot traffic, and so not leisure at all, just a big highway with special rules. I would like to hear more from others. For me a courtyard is enclosed by a building, or more than one building. It can even be inside a building. They are not intended for lots of through pedestrian traffic but as an place to relax, or a view to enjoy. See cloister too. Some have arcades or colonnades around them to take pedestrian traffic away .. or provide a shaded resting place to view them. In some cultures they are used to provide a privet space for a family home, the homes' external walls provide a barrier to the outside, while an inside courtyard provides air and light to the house as well as a place to relax. Spain. Morocco are nice to visit. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
imho a courtyard is related to leisure. why for: because a courtyard matters to people with leisure time and it is a luxury of sorts. why against: perhaps a courtyard is a sequestered area/way as it is often tagger highway designated footpath as an area, an area that is a Very big way for foot traffic, and so not leisure at all, just a big highway with special rules. I would like to hear more from others. I think courtyards are important, and they are disappearing, so , if we map them, maybe they will lget more attention, and their numbers will increase. I have never tagged a courtyard as a POI, perhaps because I didn't know how. I hope this conversation can help lots of people. Thanks for bringing it up! -- Alex On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 6:47 AM, Lukas Sommer wrote: > I didn't know that courtyards have their own name ;-) > > In general, it seems a good idea to have a tag (apart from name=*) on > the inner line of the multipolygon. But I would avoid the key place=* > because this key is rather used for bigger features and seems to not > fit well. Maybe there is another key *=courtyard that fits better? > > 2015-02-06 22:14 GMT, Friedrich Volkmann : > > Courtyards use to be mapped as "inner" members of building > multipolygons. We > > can also use the multipolygon relation to assign a name to the bullding. > If > > we want to assign a name to the courtyard, we must assign it to the way. > But > > then we need some kind of physical tag in addition. Applications won't > know > > what do do with the name when there aren't any other tags. > > > > Some courtyards are tagged place=locality or highway=pedestrian or > > leisure=park, but they all seem wrong. A place=locality wouldn't be that > > strictly delimited, and a park or pedestrian area need not occupy the > entire > > courtyard. > > > > A courtyard really has nothing to do with leisure=*, and it is not a > highway > > either. It's just a hole in a building. What key can we use for this? > > > > What about place=courtyard (an area spared by a buildng), analogous to > > place=island (an area spared by the ocean)? > > > > -- > > Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ > > Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria > > > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > > -- > Lukas Sommer > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] courtyards
I didn’t know that courtyards have their own name ;-) In general, it seems a good idea to have a tag (apart from name=*) on the inner line of the multipolygon. But I would avoid the key place=* because this key is rather used for bigger features and seems to not fit well. Maybe there is another key *=courtyard that fits better? 2015-02-06 22:14 GMT, Friedrich Volkmann : > Courtyards use to be mapped as "inner" members of building multipolygons. We > can also use the multipolygon relation to assign a name to the bullding. If > we want to assign a name to the courtyard, we must assign it to the way. But > then we need some kind of physical tag in addition. Applications won't know > what do do with the name when there aren't any other tags. > > Some courtyards are tagged place=locality or highway=pedestrian or > leisure=park, but they all seem wrong. A place=locality wouldn't be that > strictly delimited, and a park or pedestrian area need not occupy the entire > courtyard. > > A courtyard really has nothing to do with leisure=*, and it is not a highway > either. It's just a hole in a building. What key can we use for this? > > What about place=courtyard (an area spared by a buildng), analogous to > place=island (an area spared by the ocean)? > > -- > Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ > Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Lukas Sommer ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] courtyards
Courtyards use to be mapped as "inner" members of building multipolygons. We can also use the multipolygon relation to assign a name to the bullding. If we want to assign a name to the courtyard, we must assign it to the way. But then we need some kind of physical tag in addition. Applications won't know what do do with the name when there aren't any other tags. Some courtyards are tagged place=locality or highway=pedestrian or leisure=park, but they all seem wrong. A place=locality wouldn't be that strictly delimited, and a park or pedestrian area need not occupy the entire courtyard. A courtyard really has nothing to do with leisure=*, and it is not a highway either. It's just a hole in a building. What key can we use for this? What about place=courtyard (an area spared by a buildng), analogous to place=island (an area spared by the ocean)? -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
