Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant and wrenches
2012/7/25 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: On 25/07/12 14:00, LM_1 wrote: 2012/7/25 Jason Cunningham jamicu...@googlemail.com: On 24 July 2012 19:55, David ``Smith'' vidthe...@gmail.com wrote: Useful to whom? The local fire department should already know, and nobody else should be authorized to open the hydrant anyway — though it seems the biggest reason departments object to unauthorized access is damage caused by using the wrong kind of wrench… In my case, I'm talking about fire_hydrants used by forest fire-fighters. It is mostly composed by volunteers, and we often go to nearby places where we don't know where hydrants are or what kind of wrench is needed to open them. On our trucks we often don't have both types of wrench, thus knowing where is the nearest fire hydrant that has the right wrench is very important to us. Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant and wrenches
On 24 July 2012 19:55, David ``Smith'' vidthe...@gmail.com wrote: Useful to whom? The local fire department should already know, and nobody else should be authorized to open the hydrant anyway — though it seems the biggest reason departments object to unauthorized access is damage caused by using the wrong kind of wrench… Your assuming the existence of something called a local fire department who have some sort of control over the hydrant. This may be the case for the the area your thinking about but not be the case across the rest of the world. Having said that I agree that if people should not interacting with an object then OSM should not provide data on how to do it, especially for something as important as a fire hydrant. Jason ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant and wrenches
2012/7/25 Jason Cunningham jamicu...@googlemail.com: On 24 July 2012 19:55, David ``Smith'' vidthe...@gmail.com wrote: Useful to whom? The local fire department should already know, and nobody else should be authorized to open the hydrant anyway — though it seems the biggest reason departments object to unauthorized access is damage caused by using the wrong kind of wrench… Your assuming the existence of something called a local fire department who have some sort of control over the hydrant. This may be the case for the the area your thinking about but not be the case across the rest of the world. Having said that I agree that if people should not interacting with an object then OSM should not provide data on how to do it, especially for something as important as a fire hydrant. Jason More importantly OSM should not censor its data even if there is potential for abuse. (surveillance cameras for crime planning, detailed road maps for attack forces coordination, police using uploaded gps tracks to find locations where cars are likely to exceed speed limits... ) Lukáš Matějka (LM_1) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant and wrenches
On 25/07/12 14:00, LM_1 wrote: 2012/7/25 Jason Cunningham jamicu...@googlemail.com: On 24 July 2012 19:55, David ``Smith'' vidthe...@gmail.com wrote: Useful to whom? The local fire department should already know, and nobody else should be authorized to open the hydrant anyway — though it seems the biggest reason departments object to unauthorized access is damage caused by using the wrong kind of wrench… Your assuming the existence of something called a local fire department who have some sort of control over the hydrant. This may be the case for the the area your thinking about but not be the case across the rest of the world. Having said that I agree that if people should not interacting with an object then OSM should not provide data on how to do it, especially for something as important as a fire hydrant. Jason More importantly OSM should not censor its data even if there is potential for abuse. (surveillance cameras for crime planning, detailed road maps for attack forces coordination, police using uploaded gps tracks to find locations where cars are likely to exceed speed limits... ) +10 Please no censorship in this way. As the fire_hydrant has already an own tag it should be no problem to add some more information (like the wrench). Im my country, I find them not just on fire_hydrants, eg it might be worse thinking about a generell solution and not just for fire hydrants. wrench_type=* comes to my mind. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant and wrenches and some off-topic
fly lowflight66@... writes: On 25/07/12 14:00, LM_1 wrote: 2012/7/25 Jason Cunningham jamicuosm at googlemail.com: On 24 July 2012 19:55, David ``Smith'' vidthekid at gmail.com wrote: Useful to whom? The local fire department should already know, and nobody else should be authorized to open the hydrant anyway — though it seems the biggest reason departments object to unauthorized access is damage caused by using the wrong kind of wrench… Your assuming the existence of something called a local fire department who have some sort of control over the hydrant. This may be the case for the the area your thinking about but not be the case across the rest of the world. Having said that I agree that if people should not interacting with an object then OSM should not provide data on how to do it, especially for something as important as a fire hydrant. Jason More importantly OSM should not censor its data even if there is potential for abuse. (surveillance cameras for crime planning, detailed road maps for attack forces coordination, police using uploaded gps tracks to find locations where cars are likely to exceed speed limits... ) +10 Please no censorship in this way. As the fire_hydrant has already an own tag it should be no problem to add some more information (like the wrench). Im my country, I find them not just on fire_hydrants, eg it might be worse thinking about a generell solution and not just for fire hydrants. wrench_type=* comes to my mind. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging at openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I just found out about the emergency-key, I think it is great for things you could need in an emergency. As I udnerstand, the tagging have appeared as a need for things that could not be described with other keys. some things like http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlife_ring are just there for in case of emergency. Looking at the values at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:emergency I see that the one that made these have had fire_fighting in mind. It makes me wonder if all things related to firefighting should be tagged emergency. Some might argue that only things usable by ordinary, unprepared people should be marked emergency. But as Jason argues, in some places are everyone supposed to join in to figth fires. I could settle on some kind of definition, that things *only* used at an emergency or at least *mostly*, should be tagged with emergency. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dfire_water_pond could be a border case on the included side. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dambulance_station I think is far to active during non-emergency situations to be included. I would like things in the emergency-key to be out on the field, sort of. Well, the above was off-topic. Regarding keying, i think the barrier-guys have thought a bit on it. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/New_barrier_types#Combinat ions_.2F_Subtags hydrant:key=6sided_wrench maybe? Probably, there are some kind of advanced access-tagging system floating around also. hydrant:access=key and key=wrench ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant and wrenches
Hi all, In the place where I live, there are some hydrants that are secured, that is you have to open it using a square or pentagonal wrench. I think that this distinction could be useful (which wrench has to be used, if any...) Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant and wrenches
Useful to whom? The local fire department should already know, and nobody else should be authorized to open the hydrant anyway — though it seems the biggest reason departments object to unauthorized access is damage caused by using the wrong kind of wrench… ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
Le 19/10/2010 02:40, Ulf Lamping a écrit : Am 18.10.2010 12:20, schrieb Rodolphe Quiedeville: Le 18/10/2010 09:31, Rodolphe Quiedeville a écrit : Hi, I started rename amenity=fire_hydrant to emergency=fire_hydrant as it is describe in the wiki. I checked there's no rendering in mapnik styles and t...@h. [...] I forgot to say that I've opened a ticket to fix the JOSM presets : http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5537 If someone could say to me how to fix the Merkaartor presets too, I'll do my best to do it too. There has been a very lengthy discussion about the emergency category - and there wasn't a clear outcome. There wasn't a consensus if the change is useful at all and it's still unclear what should be in the emergency category and what not. Then the Wiki was changed without community consensus. Then you seem to have made a mass edit without following the code of conduct about mass edits. Now you have the nerve to tell the JOSM developers: The key for fire hydrant is false, it's emergency=fire_hydrant instead of amenity=fire_hydrant, here a patch to fix the default presets The JOSM presets are correct and don't need to be fixed. Please revert the wiki and your mass edit changes back to it's original state! Hi, I did not change the wiki, but your right the wiki was the source of the misunderstanding you speak about. -- Rodolphe Quiédeville - Artisan Logiciel Libre Travailleur indépendant spécialisé en logiciel libre http://rodolphe.quiedeville.org/ SIP/XMPP : rodol...@quiedeville.org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
Le 19/10/2010 01:37, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer a écrit : 2010/10/18 Rodolphe Quiedeville rodol...@quiedeville.org: Le 18/10/2010 09:31, Rodolphe Quiedeville a écrit : I started rename amenity=fire_hydrant to emergency=fire_hydrant as it is describe in the wiki. I checked there's no rendering in mapnik styles and t...@h. [...] I forgot to say that I've opened a ticket to fix the JOSM presets : http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5537 If someone could say to me how to fix the Merkaartor presets too, I'll do my best to do it too. not sure if Merkaartor is there as well, but t...@h and Mapnik tickets can be filed here: trac.openstreetmap.org Hi, Since my email I found merkaartor ressources : Tickets : http://merkaartor.be/projects/merkaartor/issues Source code : http://gitorious.org/merkaartor/ Regards -- Rodolphe Quiédeville - Artisan Logiciel Libre Travailleur indépendant spécialisé en logiciel libre http://rodolphe.quiedeville.org/ SIP/XMPP : rodol...@quiedeville.org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
Le 19/10/2010 02:40, Ulf Lamping a écrit : Am 18.10.2010 12:20, schrieb Rodolphe Quiedeville: Le 18/10/2010 09:31, Rodolphe Quiedeville a écrit : Hi, I started rename amenity=fire_hydrant to emergency=fire_hydrant as it is describe in the wiki. I checked there's no rendering in mapnik styles and t...@h. [...] I forgot to say that I've opened a ticket to fix the JOSM presets : http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5537 If someone could say to me how to fix the Merkaartor presets too, I'll do my best to do it too. There has been a very lengthy discussion about the emergency category - and there wasn't a clear outcome. There wasn't a consensus if the change is useful at all and it's still unclear what should be in the emergency category and what not. Then the Wiki was changed without community consensus. Then you seem to have made a mass edit without following the code of conduct about mass edits. Now you have the nerve to tell the JOSM developers: The key for fire hydrant is false, it's emergency=fire_hydrant instead of amenity=fire_hydrant, here a patch to fix the default presets The JOSM presets are correct and don't need to be fixed. Please revert the wiki and your mass edit changes back to it's original state! The developers have better things to do than these wiki fiddling nonsense ... To explain what I've done. I read the wiki as you and the page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dfire_hydrantredirect=no was last modified on 6 August 2010, at 22:18 by someone else. If you read all the documentation on the wiki (not wrote by me, I done juste the french translation) could you say that it is not what to follow ? After that I propose a patch to JOSM developpers, what I do wrong ? I propose to improve the software to be conform with the tags definition. I posted here what I'm doing on the mass edits (edits really simple to reverts), give me an url to improve my knwoledge about mass edits, I'll read it with pleasure. I read the thread about amenity=emergency_phone ! Not about fire_hydrant, but perhaps my not so good english (I'm french) was a problem for good understanding. I read the rules of mapnik and t...@h to see if this tags is rendered at the moment. So why are you so agressive with me ? Are you sure all the contributors will do all I've done before editing tag or ways ? Now to fix eventual problems, please fix this wrong wiki to avoid future problem, and after that I'll revert my changes and add amenity=fire_hydrant to all node I've changed. I have better things to do, than read agressive emails on mailing-lists... OSM is a beautiful project and always a pleasure to contribute. -- Rodolphe Quiédeville - Artisan Logiciel Libre Travailleur indépendant spécialisé en logiciel libre http://rodolphe.quiedeville.org/ SIP/XMPP : rodol...@quiedeville.org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
Le 19/10/2010 10:17, Rodolphe Quiedeville a écrit : Le 19/10/2010 02:40, Ulf Lamping a écrit : [...] Revert done. -- Rodolphe Quiédeville - Artisan Logiciel Libre Travailleur indépendant spécialisé en logiciel libre http://rodolphe.quiedeville.org/ SIP/XMPP : rodol...@quiedeville.org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
Le 18/10/2010 09:31, Rodolphe Quiedeville a écrit : Hi, I started rename amenity=fire_hydrant to emergency=fire_hydrant as it is describe in the wiki. I checked there's no rendering in mapnik styles and t...@h. [...] I forgot to say that I've opened a ticket to fix the JOSM presets : http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5537 If someone could say to me how to fix the Merkaartor presets too, I'll do my best to do it too. Regards -- Rodolphe Quiédeville - Artisan Logiciel Libre Travailleur indépendant spécialisé en logiciel libre http://rodolphe.quiedeville.org/ SIP/XMPP : rodol...@quiedeville.org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
2010/10/18 Rodolphe Quiedeville rodol...@quiedeville.org: Le 18/10/2010 09:31, Rodolphe Quiedeville a écrit : I started rename amenity=fire_hydrant to emergency=fire_hydrant as it is describe in the wiki. I checked there's no rendering in mapnik styles and t...@h. [...] I forgot to say that I've opened a ticket to fix the JOSM presets : http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5537 If someone could say to me how to fix the Merkaartor presets too, I'll do my best to do it too. not sure if Merkaartor is there as well, but t...@h and Mapnik tickets can be filed here: trac.openstreetmap.org cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
Am 18.10.2010 12:20, schrieb Rodolphe Quiedeville: Le 18/10/2010 09:31, Rodolphe Quiedeville a écrit : Hi, I started rename amenity=fire_hydrant to emergency=fire_hydrant as it is describe in the wiki. I checked there's no rendering in mapnik styles and t...@h. [...] I forgot to say that I've opened a ticket to fix the JOSM presets : http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5537 If someone could say to me how to fix the Merkaartor presets too, I'll do my best to do it too. There has been a very lengthy discussion about the emergency category - and there wasn't a clear outcome. There wasn't a consensus if the change is useful at all and it's still unclear what should be in the emergency category and what not. Then the Wiki was changed without community consensus. Then you seem to have made a mass edit without following the code of conduct about mass edits. Now you have the nerve to tell the JOSM developers: The key for fire hydrant is false, it's emergency=fire_hydrant instead of amenity=fire_hydrant, here a patch to fix the default presets The JOSM presets are correct and don't need to be fixed. Please revert the wiki and your mass edit changes back to it's original state! The developers have better things to do than these wiki fiddling nonsense ... Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
On 10/18/10 8:40 PM, Ulf Lamping wrote: There has been a very lengthy discussion about the emergency category - and there wasn't a clear outcome. There wasn't a consensus if the change is useful at all and it's still unclear what should be in the emergency category and what not. it looked pretty non-controversial until a small number of people started arguing loudly against it. we don't have good mechanisms to determine consensus, discussions are easily derailed by small, determined groups. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_hydrant
Am 19.10.2010 02:53, schrieb Richard Welty: On 10/18/10 8:40 PM, Ulf Lamping wrote: There has been a very lengthy discussion about the emergency category - and there wasn't a clear outcome. There wasn't a consensus if the change is useful at all and it's still unclear what should be in the emergency category and what not. it looked pretty non-controversial There wasn't even a consensus in the pro-change fraction what qualifies as an emergency and what not. until a small number of people started arguing loudly against it. I've counted 8 individuals that argued against the change at about 20 (not counted them) total participants. Doesn't look like a small number to me. Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
