Re: [Tagging] insurance health
I think so, yes. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:12 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > > sent from a phone > > > On 16. Apr 2020, at 11:41, Marc Gemis wrote: > > > > It's a health fund, and every adult Belgian needs to have one > > > judging by their names, are they all mutual insurance companies? > > Cheers Martin > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
sent from a phone > On 16. Apr 2020, at 11:41, Marc Gemis wrote: > > It's a health fund, and every adult Belgian needs to have one judging by their names, are they all mutual insurance companies? Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
Hello, I created the preset as we needed something to map offices of * Christelijke Mutualiteit (CM) https://www.cm.be/ - on Wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsbond_der_Christelijke_Mutualiteiten * Socialistische Mutualiteit https://www.socmut.be/ * Liberale Mutualiteit https://www.lm.be/ * Onafhankelijk Ziekenfonds https://www.oz.be/ * there is one other They are not insurance companies as Allianz (which was mentioned in this thread). According to CM (https://www.cm.be/over-cm/wie-zijn-we) they offer all kinds of services (some kind of outreach programs related to health & family) and even state that they are social movement. They also have shops where you can buy/rent e.g wheelchairs, diapers for adults, etc. When you are injured and cannot work for longer periods, you have to go to one of their offices and get checked by one of their doctors. More info on the Wikipedia page: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziekenfonds_(Belgi%C3%AB) -- In Dutch. It's a health fund, and every adult Belgian needs to have one. Perhaps we should use a different tag for them. Open to suggestions. regards m. On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 7:08 AM Agustin Rissoli wrote: > > In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated to > what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a series of > medical benefits. > We are hesitating between these tags: > > office=health_insurance > It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was created > in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM. > > office=insurance + insurance=health > It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66 uses. > It is the only documented insurance=* key. > > What do you think would be the correct use? > > -- > AGUS! :) > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
Am Mi., 15. Apr. 2020 um 16:05 Uhr schrieb Frederik Ramm < frede...@remote.org>: > and a proper staffed office in a city. These sales representatives are > usually self-employed and get a kickback from every contract they sell. indeed, it wouldn't even be important where they are, because you would usually give them a call and soon after they would show up at your place and will hardly leave unless you signed a few contracts, especially if it is about life or health insurance ;-) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
Am Mi., 15. Apr. 2020 um 15:55 Uhr schrieb Greg Troxel : > If there is a preset for "insurance" and a subtype for what kind, I > think most people would complete their tagging in seconds. And this is > something that isn't super common, and many people mapping it will be > tagging one, very occasionally. > > If there is a subtype for "office=insurance", the first thing I would like to be able to distinguish is between a back office and a public facing "agency" (agents selling you policies). And maybe the kind of insurance (reinsurance vs. insurance), public or private insurance, mutual insurance, business to business or for consumers, etc. The kind of "object" to get insurance for may be interesting, but if it is sufficiently big insurance company you often will get almost any kind of insurance Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
Hi, On 15.04.20 03:16, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > OK, but are there any countries in the world where you can would > normally buy health insurance in the same place as car or home or life > insurance? Yes, sure. Many big German insurers offer health insurance and other insurances (e.g. life, car, home) too, and they will often have sales representatives tied to one insurer operating out of anything between a more or less private residence with a sticker outside in the countryside and a proper staffed office in a city. These sales representatives are usually self-employed and get a kickback from every contract they sell. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 14:55, Greg Troxel wrote: > > If there is a preset for "insurance" and a subtype for what kind, I > think most people would complete their tagging in seconds. And this is > something that isn't super common, and many people mapping it will be > tagging one, very occasionally. > Using office=insurance with subtagging also makes it easier to map things when you don't know all the details. The sign says "Foo Insurance" but you don't know what kinds of insurance. With office=insurance you don't bother sub-tagging but maybe somebody can refine it later. If we have office=health_insurance then people who don't know all the details may choose office=insurance when it should be office=health_insurance and vice-versa. For that reason alone, sub-tagging is better. Add in all the other reasons you gave and I don't see any merit in office=health_insurance. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
On 2020-04-14 21:16, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
OK, but are there any countries in the world where you can would
normally buy health insurance in the same place as car or home or life
insurance?
I don't know. Many countries might not even allow this.
If not, then this is a theoretical problem only.
The problem is having a messy namespace with tags that sort of mean the
same thing, but aren't the same, which makes understanding the data much
harder, for what I view as no good reason.
"if you want to ask "how many insurance offices are there and what
is the breakdown by type", it's much more natural to search one key..."
It's all one key either way ("office"), and database users already are
very accustomed to searching for more than one tag to find a set of
similar things. It only takes a few more seconds to add another tag to
an Overpass-API query.
It's not the time to change the query. It's the semantic load on
everything that looks at the data. Every renderer and search program
has to learn about this. That's not so bad in terms of work, but when
they don't know about it, users get missing results.
But it takes more time for each mapper to add 2 tags instead of one.
Mapper time is the most precious resource in OpenStreetMap: we don't
have enough mappers, and most are working for free, for fun.
I also have to often tag "barrier=wall" "wall=dry_stone". Should we
than have "barrier=wall_dry_stone" to save me a few keystrokes? This
way becomes madness if taken to the extreme with every detail promoted
into the top-level tag.
In my mapping of POIs, the big amount time is actually going places.
The next biggest is having to read the wiki to figure out what tags to
use for things that I haven't mapped before. When using vespucci,
another big thing is actually typing the name correctly.
If there is a preset for "insurance" and a subtype for what kind, I
think most people would complete their tagging in seconds. And this is
something that isn't super common, and many people mapping it will be
tagging one, very occasionally.
So I really think this de-normalized tagging, to use db terms, is a
false optimization that doesn't help anyone.
Let's make things as easy as possible for mappers: one tag for one main feature.
That is begging the question of "main feature", and what's easy.
We have to have summarization or we will have thousands of top-level
tags. To me, a business that sells insurance is a kind of thing, and
sensible to label. Labeling what kind is perhaps of value, but I don't
see people shoppingfor health insurance by searching for such places.
And, having a preset with a choice pulldown makes it easy. Having a
top-level shop preset choice with 10x the number of things in it is not
easier, as it becomes too big to scan through.
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Re: [Tagging] insurance health
"I am still not completely sure, but I believe, "Allianz" is a group here, and health care insurance will be provided by a member of this group, and agents will sell you any product the group offers (i.e. in the details they are different "companies", but you can find several of these companies together, bundled as "group")." Yes, that's completely true. So my vote would also be rather for an additional tag like insurance=health. Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. April 2020 um 11:08 Uhr Von: "Martin Koppenhoefer" An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" Cc: "Agustin Rissoli" Betreff: Re: [Tagging] insurance health sent from a phone > On 15. Apr 2020, at 03:17, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > But it takes more time for each mapper to add 2 tags instead of one. > Mapper time is the most precious resource in OpenStreetMap: we don't > have enough mappers, and most are working for free, for fun. > Let's make things as easy as possible for mappers: one tag for one main feature. most time is spent finding the “best” or at least mostly used and appropriate tagging, much more than you need to actually type it in. And people relying on presets don’t care anyway, because a preset can set 2 tags with one click. I agree we should strive for easy tagging, but it may also imply to sometimes use 2 tags rather than one. When there are places where an insurance company office lets you sign up for health insurance and other insurance types, the distinction in the main tag will be an issue. I am not completely sure, but from a quick verification it doesn't seem improbable that you can get healthcare insurance at the same place as other insurance types, e.g. when you look here for offices of a specific German insurance company (which offers "all" kinds of insurances, including private healthcare insurance) in a specific town, the search form does not have a selection for the type of insurance, hence I would suspect that all of them will be able to sell you all of their insurances: https://www.allianz.de/agentursuche/karlsruhe/?address=karlsruhe I am still not completely sure, but I believe, "Allianz" is a group here, and health care insurance will be provided by a member of this group, and agents will sell you any product the group offers (i.e. in the details they are different "companies", but you can find several of these companies together, bundled as "group"). Also, the assumption for your assessment of easyness is that people will want to tag "healthcare insurance company office", so they will need 2 tags to describe office=insurance, insurance=health(_care) but if all the mapper wants to tag is "insurance company" (regardless of types of insurances), she could add office=insurance which is arguably simpler and easier than office=health_insurance So, in accordance with your statement "Let's make things as easy as possible for mappers", we could argue just as well for "office=insurance" and optional details about the kind of insurance in additional tags. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
sent from a phone > On 15. Apr 2020, at 03:17, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > But it takes more time for each mapper to add 2 tags instead of one. > Mapper time is the most precious resource in OpenStreetMap: we don't > have enough mappers, and most are working for free, for fun. > Let's make things as easy as possible for mappers: one tag for one main > feature. most time is spent finding the “best” or at least mostly used and appropriate tagging, much more than you need to actually type it in. And people relying on presets don’t care anyway, because a preset can set 2 tags with one click. I agree we should strive for easy tagging, but it may also imply to sometimes use 2 tags rather than one. When there are places where an insurance company office lets you sign up for health insurance and other insurance types, the distinction in the main tag will be an issue. I am not completely sure, but from a quick verification it doesn't seem improbable that you can get healthcare insurance at the same place as other insurance types, e.g. when you look here for offices of a specific German insurance company (which offers "all" kinds of insurances, including private healthcare insurance) in a specific town, the search form does not have a selection for the type of insurance, hence I would suspect that all of them will be able to sell you all of their insurances: https://www.allianz.de/agentursuche/karlsruhe/?address=karlsruhe I am still not completely sure, but I believe, "Allianz" is a group here, and health care insurance will be provided by a member of this group, and agents will sell you any product the group offers (i.e. in the details they are different "companies", but you can find several of these companies together, bundled as "group"). Also, the assumption for your assessment of easyness is that people will want to tag "healthcare insurance company office", so they will need 2 tags to describe office=insurance, insurance=health(_care) but if all the mapper wants to tag is "insurance company" (regardless of types of insurances), she could add office=insurance which is arguably simpler and easier than office=health_insurance So, in accordance with your statement "Let's make things as easy as possible for mappers", we could argue just as well for "office=insurance" and optional details about the kind of insurance in additional tags. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
OK, but are there any countries in the world where you can would
normally buy health insurance in the same place as car or home or life
insurance?
If not, then this is a theoretical problem only.
"if you want to ask "how many insurance offices are there and what
is the breakdown by type", it's much more natural to search one key..."
It's all one key either way ("office"), and database users already are
very accustomed to searching for more than one tag to find a set of
similar things. It only takes a few more seconds to add another tag to
an Overpass-API query.
But it takes more time for each mapper to add 2 tags instead of one.
Mapper time is the most precious resource in OpenStreetMap: we don't
have enough mappers, and most are working for free, for fun.
Let's make things as easy as possible for mappers: one tag for one main feature.
-- Joseph Eisenberg
On 4/15/20, António Madeira wrote:
> I agree that a logical breakdown of the insurance field should be
> preferred rather than creating several type of insurance offices.
> I would rather use office=insurance + insurance="type" than
> office=health_insurance;car_insurance;house_insurance;etc.
>
>
> Às 21:16 de 14/04/2020, Greg Troxel escreveu:
>> Agustin Rissoli writes:
>>
>>> In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated
>>> to
>>> what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a
>>> series
>>> of medical benefits.
>>> We are hesitating between these tags:
>>>
>>> office=health_insurance
>>> It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was
>>> created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM.
>>>
>>> office=insurance + insurance=health
>>> It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66
>>> uses.
>>> It is the only documented insurance=* key.
>> While I see Joseph's point about what is normal, I think that's an
>> artifact of some, perhaps many societies.
>>
>> I think if this is an office selling insurance of any kind, it should
>> have office=insurance and then a subtag. I don't think it helps map
>> data users to make a second top-level tag. Basically I think tags
>> should follow semantics as much as possible, when that's reasonable.
>>
>> For what it's worth, around me, also in the US, my impression is that
>> most "insurance offices" are really "property and casualty insurance
>> offices". This is for your car, and your house. But typically not life
>> insurance so much, and not health. (I am not sure about professional
>> liability and business interruption insurance.)
>>
>> As always, we should step back and ask "when we add these tags, who will
>> use them, and why". I see two points:
>>
>>some kind of overall statistics of types of businesses
>>
>>wanting to find a particular thing
>>
>> In the case of office=insurance insurance=health, if that's what you
>> want, you can find it by searching for that just as well as searching
>> for office=health_insurance.
>>
>> But if you want to ask "how many insurance offices are there and what
>> is the breakdown by type", it's much more natural to search one key and
>> switch on subtag, then to consult some information -- which we don't
>> really have a way to maintain -- that says office=insurance,
>> office=health_insurance and office=foo_insurance are all types of
>> insurance offices.
>>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] insurance health
I agree that a logical breakdown of the insurance field should be preferred rather than creating several type of insurance offices. I would rather use office=insurance + insurance="type" than office=health_insurance;car_insurance;house_insurance;etc. Às 21:16 de 14/04/2020, Greg Troxel escreveu: Agustin Rissoli writes: In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated to what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a series of medical benefits. We are hesitating between these tags: office=health_insurance It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM. office=insurance + insurance=health It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66 uses. It is the only documented insurance=* key. While I see Joseph's point about what is normal, I think that's an artifact of some, perhaps many societies. I think if this is an office selling insurance of any kind, it should have office=insurance and then a subtag. I don't think it helps map data users to make a second top-level tag. Basically I think tags should follow semantics as much as possible, when that's reasonable. For what it's worth, around me, also in the US, my impression is that most "insurance offices" are really "property and casualty insurance offices". This is for your car, and your house. But typically not life insurance so much, and not health. (I am not sure about professional liability and business interruption insurance.) As always, we should step back and ask "when we add these tags, who will use them, and why". I see two points: some kind of overall statistics of types of businesses wanting to find a particular thing In the case of office=insurance insurance=health, if that's what you want, you can find it by searching for that just as well as searching for office=health_insurance. But if you want to ask "how many insurance offices are there and what is the breakdown by type", it's much more natural to search one key and switch on subtag, then to consult some information -- which we don't really have a way to maintain -- that says office=insurance, office=health_insurance and office=foo_insurance are all types of insurance offices. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
Agustin Rissoli writes: > In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated to > what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a series > of medical benefits. > We are hesitating between these tags: > > office=health_insurance > It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was > created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM. > > office=insurance + insurance=health > It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66 uses. > It is the only documented insurance=* key. While I see Joseph's point about what is normal, I think that's an artifact of some, perhaps many societies. I think if this is an office selling insurance of any kind, it should have office=insurance and then a subtag. I don't think it helps map data users to make a second top-level tag. Basically I think tags should follow semantics as much as possible, when that's reasonable. For what it's worth, around me, also in the US, my impression is that most "insurance offices" are really "property and casualty insurance offices". This is for your car, and your house. But typically not life insurance so much, and not health. (I am not sure about professional liability and business interruption insurance.) As always, we should step back and ask "when we add these tags, who will use them, and why". I see two points: some kind of overall statistics of types of businesses wanting to find a particular thing In the case of office=insurance insurance=health, if that's what you want, you can find it by searching for that just as well as searching for office=health_insurance. But if you want to ask "how many insurance offices are there and what is the breakdown by type", it's much more natural to search one key and switch on subtag, then to consult some information -- which we don't really have a way to maintain -- that says office=insurance, office=health_insurance and office=foo_insurance are all types of insurance offices. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
Yes, it is also so here, these companies are entirely specialized in health, the regulation and management is completely different from a conventional insurer. We did a search with the name of one of the best known companies, they are mapped with a wide variety of tags, but one of the most used is company. > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:03:04 +0900 > From: Joseph Eisenberg > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] insurance health > Message-ID: > x4umopvda2aipb7emhxbsuw-uxfvq96nhvlhia...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I would use office=health_insurance > > In my experience (mostly in the USA), an office=insurance will sell > you life insurance, house or rental insurance, car insurance, travel > insurance and some other kinds, but will usually not sell health > insurance, while a health insurance office is likely to specialize. > > Is that also true in Argentina? > > (If you want to use a subtag, another option would be office=company > (very common tag) + company=health_insurance or something like that) > > -- Joseph Eisenberg > > On 4/14/20, Agustin Rissoli wrote: > > In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated > to > > what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a > series > > of medical benefits. > > We are hesitating between these tags: > > > > office=health_insurance > > It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was > > created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM. > > > > office=insurance + insurance=health > > It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66 > uses. > > It is the only documented insurance=* key. > > > > What do you think would be the correct use? > > > > -- > > *AGUS*! :) > > > > > > -- > > -- *AGUS*! :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] insurance health
I would use office=health_insurance In my experience (mostly in the USA), an office=insurance will sell you life insurance, house or rental insurance, car insurance, travel insurance and some other kinds, but will usually not sell health insurance, while a health insurance office is likely to specialize. Is that also true in Argentina? (If you want to use a subtag, another option would be office=company (very common tag) + company=health_insurance or something like that) -- Joseph Eisenberg On 4/14/20, Agustin Rissoli wrote: > In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated to > what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a series > of medical benefits. > We are hesitating between these tags: > > office=health_insurance > It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was > created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM. > > office=insurance + insurance=health > It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66 uses. > It is the only documented insurance=* key. > > What do you think would be the correct use? > > -- > *AGUS*! :) > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] insurance health
In Argentina we want to correctly tagging offices of companies dedicated to what we call prepaid medicine, by paying a monthly fee you access a series of medical benefits. We are hesitating between these tags: office=health_insurance It has no wiki, it has 185 uses, the majority in Belgium since it was created in 2013, they even have a preset in JOSM. office=insurance + insurance=health It has a wiki, curiously created by a Belgian user in 2018, it has 66 uses. It is the only documented insurance=* key. What do you think would be the correct use? -- *AGUS*! :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
