Re: [Tagging] shared driveways (was How to tag un-named roundabout?)
2009/11/21 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com You maybe ain't going to like this, but the usual distinction in the UK is that residentials are (typically) 6m+ wide and have pavements/sidewalks, whereas service is for urban roads which don't have pavements/sidewalks. Richrd I don't like it either. In Germany and Italy service roads are non-roads (parking_aisle and driveway) or very small roads (alley) or service roads (restricted roads for service access to motorways, factories, ecc.). A normal road in the city without pavements would be a residential or unclassified (if not higher rated, and according to the zone). Maybe I missed something, but your definition is also quite far from what is documented in the wiki: Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsitehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Camp_site, industrial estate, business park, etc. This is also commonly used for access to parking, driveways, and alleys. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservice cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shared driveways
Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net writes: With regard to apartment complexes, condo complexes, mobile home complexes, and gated single-family-home complexes, I usually tag: - The ways that cross the boundary line from public street into the complex are highway=service*** + service=driveway. These are also role=access in the relation. - Other roads completely internal to the complex are highway=service*** - If it is a gated community and/or there is a legal no-trespassing posting, additionally tag all roads and other features within the posted area as access=private. *** I have sometimes used highway=residential instead of highway=service when the roads are named, have actual postal addresses along them, and clearly up to public road standards (width, surface, maintenance, etc.). This would apply to some condo and most gated single-family-home complexes. I rarely draw driveways into businesses or, even more rarely, single-family home lots. If I do, they are highway=service + service=driveway, with access=private if gated or posted no-trespassing. This is an excellent description of more or less what I was trying to say (but didn't so well), and I think it would be a good addition to formal tagging guidelines. pgpjlQZSzjI4i.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] shared driveways (was How to tag un-named roundabout?)
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Anthony o...@inbox.org writes: But I've come across situations where the unnamed road is not a roundabout, though. In one of these cases I used highway=unclassified, because it was just a dirt road that was really just a shared driveway (it was imported from TIGER because it used to be a real road). here, the question is the road's legal status. If it's a private or public way going to houses, it would be highway=residential. If it's really a driveway legally now, highway=service service=driveway, or highway=track if it's really atrocious. MassGIS data has a lot of driveways showing up as ways that got mapped to residential, and I've been fixing them in my town. What's the legal distinction between a private way going to houses and a shared driveway? The road in question is definitely private - if the shared owners want to put up a gate and restrict access to the way, they have every right to do so. So I'd say it's *both* a private way going to houses *and* a shared driveway. Another situation which I run into more often is the case of a private road owned by a condominium association (or mobile home park), or by an apartment complex. Should these be tagged as something other than highway=residential? I've always reserved highway=service for non-residential roads. I now see on the wiki that highway=service can also be used with service=driveway, but what's the distinction between a driveway and a private road owned by a condominium association or an apartment complex? One distinction is whether or not the way is shared, but then a shared driveway is shared as well. Cross-posting to talk-us, this might be a US-specific issue. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shared driveways
Anthony wikim...@inbox.org writes: On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Anthony o...@inbox.org writes: But I've come across situations where the unnamed road is not a roundabout, though. In one of these cases I used highway=unclassified, because it was just a dirt road that was really just a shared driveway (it was imported from TIGER because it used to be a real road). here, the question is the road's legal status. If it's a private or public way going to houses, it would be highway=residential. If it's really a driveway legally now, highway=service service=driveway, or highway=track if it's really atrocious. MassGIS data has a lot of driveways showing up as ways that got mapped to residential, and I've been fixing them in my town. What's the legal distinction between a private way going to houses and a shared driveway? The road in question is definitely private - if the shared owners want to put up a gate and restrict access to the way, they have every right to do so. So I'd say it's *both* a private way going to houses *and* a shared driveway. This is probably state specific. I am not 100% clear even on mass. There are laws that talk about operating vehicles on ways. You can be cited for speeding or OUI on a private way, and I'm 99% sure you need to have a driver's license and a registered car. On a driveway you do not need a license or to have a vehicle registered. Generally private ways have street signs, names, and are sometimes plowed by the town. They meet more or less the road layout specs for streets, and can be accepted as a public way by a vote of town meeting. They are often part of an approved subdivision plan. They are usually a separate parcel from the registry of deeds viewpoint. Distance along them counts as frontage for zoning (e.g., 1.5 acres and 200 feet or frontage to make a buildable lot). Have a look at this - it's a private way and you can see the parcel that the road is, complete with the loop at the end. Those houses couldn't have been built without frontage. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qsource=s_qhl=engeocode=q=russet+lane,+stow,+masll=42.439247,-71.505128sspn=0.003393,0.007038ie=UTF8hq=hnear=Russet+Ln,+Stow,+Middlesex,+Massachusetts+01775ll=42.439381,-71.502972spn=0.006786,0.009989z=17 Driveways, on the other hand, do not show up as separate parcels - they're just bits of a parcel that are paved. I don't understand if a person has a right of access to private ways like they do with public ways. But it's definitely much more reasonable to just go on one than to go on someone's house lot. Another situation which I run into more often is the case of a private road owned by a condominium association (or mobile home park), or by an apartment complex. Should these be tagged as something other than highway=residential? I've always reserved highway=service for non-residential roads. I now see on the wiki that highway=service can also be used with service=driveway, but what's the distinction between a driveway and a private road owned by a condominium association or an apartment complex? One distinction is whether or not the way is shared, but then a shared driveway is shared as well. I would call it highway=service service=driveway, unless some combination of it has a name and a sign with that name it is legally a 'private way' (that might later be accepted as a public way) in which case residential. probably we should have a way to tag a private way as highway=residential and also private_way=yes. IMHO, it's not about the sharing - it's about three distinct legal statuses (public way, private way, driveway). Cross-postcoming to talk-us, this might be a US-specific issue. I suspect there are similar issues everywhere, with different details. pgpJ7m3O4frQd.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shared driveways
Please don't take the following as me arguing with you. I'm just trying to understand. No problem - it's a useful discussion and a hard question. I think the bottom line is that one has to understand the actual legal/use distinctions made by the experts, and then figure out how much of that to represent and how in the map. Neither of us knows that. I am tempted to go ask the police, but I bet they don't know, because it's never the edge case that matters to them. I once got a ticket for an expired registration while parked in a private driveway. I wound up getting out of the ticket on some other technicality, though, so I don't know whether or not the ticket was legit. Hmm. in my town (mass) there was a guy with 10 unregistered cars in his driveway. He got hassled under zoning which prohibited storage of more than 1 unregistered car. But the police did not care because they were not on a (public|private) way, so it was not an unregistered vehicle offense. I could use that as a distinction, but then roads through apartment complexes would be tagged as driveways? See http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qsource=s_qhl=engeocode=q=Belmere+Pkwy,+Tampa,+FL+33624sll=28.0725,-82.548614sspn=0.009202,0.013862ie=UTF8hq=hnear=Belmere+Pkwy,+Tampa,+Hillsborough,+Florida+33624ll=28.083633,-82.532698spn=0.0046,0.006931t=hz=17 (apartment complex, hence one owner and no individual frontage, hence all one parcel - should Belmere Pkwy be highway=service, service=driveway?) Well, that's how I would tend to see it, but it being in practice street like and large and having a name makes it feel like it's fair to label it as if it were a private way. I wonder if it really is a private way and the parcel data is out of date. I don't understand if a person has a right of access to private ways like they do with public ways. But it's definitely much more reasonable to just go on one than to go on someone's house lot. Not where I live. Where I live (and both states where I used to live, and I suspect in most of the US), if there's a legally installed fence/gate (or no trespassing sign), and you bypass it, you're trespassing, whether it's a private way through a gated community or a private driveway going to someone's house. And if there aren't any such no trespassing signs or gates/fences, you're not trespassing - after all it's not trespassing to walk up to someone's house and ring their doorbell, or to drive down a shared driveway (think a long narrow shared driveway on a flag lot) to deliver a package. Here it's the same. Actually 'trespassing' is 'being on the land of another without permission', and it's not illegal. The offense is 'trespass after notice' and that fits 100% with the signs and norms you describe (with the minor definitional change). In mass, private ways look like public streets, and I have never seen a no trespassing sign on one. Sometimes you can't tell they are a private way (vs public way) unless you go look at town records. Sometimes there is a small 'private way' notation on the sign. I suspect it would be improper to put up a no trespassing sign on such a road. On a driveway (in a gated community, on a person's house), no trespassing signs are not at all odd. pgpw4ArwMkLkI.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shared driveways
Here in Brisbane, we have a 'private way' going from the motorway out to the airport. It is several km long, divided multilane road that looks like a motorway, but is all on airport owned land. It is open to the public, and you can get booked by the police for traffic offences. However, because it is private, the owners rules also apply - the main one in this case being no stopping anywhere along the edge of the road (they'd prefer you to use their pay car-parks). The police don't enforce this rule, but the airport has security people who do. We don't mark the road any differently on the map. Stephen 2009/11/21 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com: I think the bottom line is that one has to understand the actual legal/use distinctions made by the experts, and then figure out how much of that to represent and how in the map. Neither of us knows that. I am tempted to go ask the police, but I bet they don't know, because it's never the edge case that matters to them. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shared driveways (was How to tag un-named roundabout?)
You maybe ain't going to like this, but the usual distinction in the UK is that residentials are (typically) 6m+ wide and have pavements/sidewalks, whereas service is for urban roads which don't have pavements/sidewalks. Richrd On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 7:22 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Anthony o...@inbox.org writes: But I've come across situations where the unnamed road is not a roundabout, though. In one of these cases I used highway=unclassified, because it was just a dirt road that was really just a shared driveway (it was imported from TIGER because it used to be a real road). here, the question is the road's legal status. If it's a private or public way going to houses, it would be highway=residential. If it's really a driveway legally now, highway=service service=driveway, or highway=track if it's really atrocious. MassGIS data has a lot of driveways showing up as ways that got mapped to residential, and I've been fixing them in my town. What's the legal distinction between a private way going to houses and a shared driveway? The road in question is definitely private - if the shared owners want to put up a gate and restrict access to the way, they have every right to do so. So I'd say it's *both* a private way going to houses *and* a shared driveway. Another situation which I run into more often is the case of a private road owned by a condominium association (or mobile home park), or by an apartment complex. Should these be tagged as something other than highway=residential? I've always reserved highway=service for non-residential roads. I now see on the wiki that highway=service can also be used with service=driveway, but what's the distinction between a driveway and a private road owned by a condominium association or an apartment complex? One distinction is whether or not the way is shared, but then a shared driveway is shared as well. Cross-posting to talk-us, this might be a US-specific issue. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shared driveways
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Well, that's how I would tend to see it, but it being in practice street like and large and having a name makes it feel like it's fair to label it as if it were a private way. I wonder if it really is a private way and the parcel data is out of date. Regarding the apartment complex, the parcel data is not out of date. That's just the way apartment complexes are parceled here. There's only one owner. Condominium associations would have a separate parcel for shared areas, because there's more than one owner. I found the appropriate definition in Florida's statutes: (53) STREET OR HIGHWAY.-- (b) The entire width between the boundary lines of any privately owned way or place used for vehicular travel by the owner and those having express or implied permission from the owner, but not by other persons In mass, private ways look like public streets, and I have never seen a no trespassing sign on one. Do you have gated communities? We have them all over the place here in Florida. I can get you some pictures if you want. I sort of remember ones without gates but with no trespassing signs, but I might have some difficulty finding examples of that to take pictures. On a driveway (in a gated community, on a person's house), no trespassing signs are not at all odd. Are you saying that everything behind the gate in a gated community is a driveway, or am I misreading that? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
