Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[François Lacombe]

Hi Martin,

2017-06-08 20:35 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> taginfo has
> 88 pipeline=siphon and
> 7 man_made=inverted_siphon
>
> The culvert article in WP:en doesn't mention siphons, but the siphon
> article says they can occur in culverts: https://en.m.
> wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon
>

It can but is this always in culverts?

Does this kind of structure match the given definition?
https://www.google.fr/maps/place/89100+Saligny/@48.2065431,3.3249426,3a,46.2y,333.11h,90.29t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sesHnJKZY9yf9CyB56_el3g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DesHnJKZY9yf9CyB56_el3g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D328.37076%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x47ef1b1121e0b8ad:0x409ce34b30d5810!8m2!3d48.214302!4d3.3517039

It's called "Arcades de Saligny" and hosts a big 2-centuries old aqueduct.
It was designed to make the aqueduct pass under the Gaillarde river (which
isn't on OSM yet).
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/291997710

But no culvert, only pipeline


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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Jun 9, 2017, at 12:10 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> @Javbw
> how are these tagged?

All of them (I have seen) are tagged as tunnel=culvert, but some are huge - 
going 200m across under a regional river, big enough to drive a car in.

A tag specific to this type of feature seems more descriptive than a tag for a 
straight tunnel or a pipe in a road bed. 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/60247913


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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

taginfo has
88 pipeline=siphon and
7 man_made=inverted_siphon

The culvert article in WP:en doesn't mention siphons, but the siphon article 
says they can occur in culverts: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon

My proposal is 
culvert=inverted_siphon
as an attribute to all kind of liquid carrying ways.

cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Mark Wagner]

On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 15:40:23 +0200
Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> I am looking into how to tag a frequent feature in my area, i.e. a
> siphon underpass, known in Italian as "botte a sifone" or "botte
> sifone" and in French as "pont siphon". This is a non.connecting
> waterway crossing where the lower waterway passes through a U-shaped
> siphon. The bottom part of the U is a tunnel that is lower as the
> normal level of the waterway. Up to now I have mapped them as tunnel=
> yes, and more recently as tunnel=culvert, but they are so frequent,
> and different from a culvert, that I would like to start tagging them
> with tunnel=siphon_underpass. They are also used to pass
> non-navigable waterways under roads and other obstacles.
> There are hundreds or more in Northern Italy and I presume in other
> flat parts of the world where there are many artificial waterways. I
> remember to have seen them on drinking_water canals in California,
> but don't remember where.
> 
> I could not find any tagging schemes for this in OSM, but I may have
> missed them in ignorance of the proper technical terms.
> 
> A locally famous example dates from the 16. century: il ponte canale
> Montaigne:
> http://osm.org/go/0IA2uooQI?m=

The English term appears to be "siphon" (or "inverted siphon" if you're
being pedantic).  It's not always flat land, either: the Bacon Siphon[1]
carries the Columbia Basin Project's main irrigation canal across a
small canyon.

-- 
Mark

  [1]: http://digital.lib.uidaho.edu/cdm/ref/collection/crbproj/id/1039

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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Mike Thompson]

Not all siphons are not entirely tunnels or culverts:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/329482560 is a siphon, but it still
crosses over, not under, US34 and the Big Thompson River.  The purpose of
the siphon in this case is reduce the length and height of the bridge
necessary to support the aqueduct.

Here is a street level view of the siphon:
http://www.gildea.com/albums/BigThompson/IMG_1082.jpg
There is an open canal on the top of the canyon on either side which feeds
down into the siphon on the left in the photo, and back up on the right.

Mike

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> @Javbw
> how are these tagged?
>
> On 8 June 2017 at 17:08, John Willis  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> >
>> > flat parts of the world
>>
>> Common on irrigation aqueducts/canals/drains both large and small here in
>> Japan, especially when they cross (under) a natural waterway. Without
>> connecting to it.
>>
>> Javbw.
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Tod Fitch]

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:40 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> I am looking into how to tag a frequent feature in my area, i.e. a siphon 
> underpass, known in Italian as "botte a sifone" or "botte sifone" and in 
> French as "pont siphon". This is a non.connecting waterway crossing where the 
> lower waterway passes through a U-shaped siphon. The bottom part of the U is 
> a tunnel that is lower as the normal level of the waterway.
> Up to now I have mapped them as tunnel= yes, and more recently as 
> tunnel=culvert, but they are so frequent, and different from a culvert, that 
> I would like to start tagging them with tunnel=siphon_underpass.
> They are also used to pass non-navigable waterways under roads and other 
> obstacles.
> There are hundreds or more in Northern Italy and I presume in other flat 
> parts of the world where there are many artificial waterways. I remember to 
> have seen them on drinking_water canals in California, but don't remember 
> where.
> 
> I could not find any tagging schemes for this in OSM, but I may have missed 
> them in ignorance of the proper technical terms.
> 
> A locally famous example dates from the 16. century: il ponte canale 
> Montaigne:
> http://osm.org/go/0IA2uooQI?m= 


FWIW, it sounds what is being described is not a siphon as I understand the 
term. It might be called a “inverted siphon”. Which, as wikipedia notes, is not 
really a siphon [1].

While there are specific cases where the average mapper might be able to 
determine that the covered section of a waterway is an inverted siphon, it 
seems to me that this won’t be possible in the general case. After all, the 
feature is usually buried.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon#Inverted_siphon___
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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jun 2017, at 15:40, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> I could not find any tagging schemes for this in OSM, but I may have missed 
> them in ignorance of the proper technical terms.


I believe the German term is "Düker"? AFAIK there's no specific tagging 
available. Maybe it is a subtype of culvert? There's no relevant subtagging so 
far: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/culvert#values

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Volker Schmidt]

Thanks. I did not know that word.
On the German Wikipedia page for "Düker" they also mention this:
"Ein Düker zur Überwindung eines Tales, wie sie schon Römer
 aus Blei
- und Tonrohren bauten, wird eher
*Siphon* genannt."

I would prefer to make it a type of tunnel, not a special type of culvert,
but I would not insist



On 8 June 2017 at 16:54, Wolfgang Zenker  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> * Volker Schmidt  [170608 15:40]:
> > I am looking into how to tag a frequent feature in my area, i.e. a siphon
> > underpass, known in Italian as "botte a sifone" or "botte sifone" and in
> > French as "pont siphon". This is a non.connecting waterway crossing where
> > the lower waterway passes through a U-shaped siphon. The bottom part of
> the
> > U is a tunnel that is lower as the normal level of the waterway.
> > [..]
> > I could not find any tagging schemes for this in OSM, but I may have
> missed
> > them in ignorance of the proper technical terms.
>
> in German this is called a "Düker". Unfortunately there does not seem to
> be a special term for this in English; all translations that I could
> find used "culvert". I would tag it as tunnel=culvert and suggest to use
> a subtag to specify that it is a special type of culvert, like
> culvert=syphon or similar.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Volker Schmidt]

@Javbw
how are these tagged?

On 8 June 2017 at 17:08, John Willis  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> >
> > flat parts of the world
>
> Common on irrigation aqueducts/canals/drains both large and small here in
> Japan, especially when they cross (under) a natural waterway. Without
> connecting to it.
>
> Javbw.
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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[John Willis]

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> flat parts of the world

Common on irrigation aqueducts/canals/drains both large and small here in 
Japan, especially when they cross (under) a natural waterway. Without 
connecting to it. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Wolfgang Zenker]

Hi,

* Volker Schmidt  [170608 15:40]:
> I am looking into how to tag a frequent feature in my area, i.e. a siphon
> underpass, known in Italian as "botte a sifone" or "botte sifone" and in
> French as "pont siphon". This is a non.connecting waterway crossing where
> the lower waterway passes through a U-shaped siphon. The bottom part of the
> U is a tunnel that is lower as the normal level of the waterway.
> [..]
> I could not find any tagging schemes for this in OSM, but I may have missed
> them in ignorance of the proper technical terms.

in German this is called a "Düker". Unfortunately there does not seem to
be a special term for this in English; all translations that I could
find used "culvert". I would tag it as tunnel=culvert and suggest to use
a subtag to specify that it is a special type of culvert, like
culvert=syphon or similar.

Wolfgang


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Re: [Tagging] siphon underpass

[Volker Schmidt]

I am looking into how to tag a frequent feature in my area, i.e. a siphon
underpass, known in Italian as "botte a sifone" or "botte sifone" and in
French as "pont siphon". This is a non.connecting waterway crossing where
the lower waterway passes through a U-shaped siphon. The bottom part of the
U is a tunnel that is lower as the normal level of the waterway.
Up to now I have mapped them as tunnel= yes, and more recently as
tunnel=culvert, but they are so frequent, and different from a culvert,
that I would like to start tagging them with tunnel=siphon_underpass.
They are also used to pass non-navigable waterways under roads and other
obstacles.
There are hundreds or more in Northern Italy and I presume in other flat
parts of the world where there are many artificial waterways. I remember to
have seen them on drinking_water canals in California, but don't remember
where.

I could not find any tagging schemes for this in OSM, but I may have missed
them in ignorance of the proper technical terms.

A locally famous example dates from the 16. century: il ponte canale
Montaigne:
http://osm.org/go/0IA2uooQI?m=
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