Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 17:43 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: I've started tagging local mini_roundabouts with mountable=yes/no. Most have trees and are obviously not. But I'm not exactly sure where the line is. Should one with a low curb, more like a gutter, be considered a true mini-roundabout or not? For example, this one in Kissimmee: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.292105,-81.404818spn=0.004204,0.008256gl=ust=mz=18layer=ccbll=28.292041,-81.404739panoid=USYkfOYkh2zXnjx-zCLrKQcbp=12,122.16,,0,9.06 That looks like a mini-roundabout to me, it is certainly traversable. The kerbs just serve to 'encourage' drivers to go around, but a truck making a turn would have no problem getting over the island. Phil (trig222) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
As there seems to be a consensus approaching on the horizon, I'll continue to work on some examples (positive and negative) to prevent misinterpretation in the future. I already got some nice photos (but could also need some more) so I guess I can finish it quite soon. As usually I'll post a link to the examples then so they can be reviewed before the article is updated. However one thing that was already mentioned is still left: turning_circle . We have the same problem here as with mini_roundabout, as the tag should only be used if there is no island present but in fact it is also used in such cases. However we must admit that the implications for data consumers are somewhat smaller compared with mini_roundabout. To be really relevant for e.g. a router the destination(!) of a large(!) vehicle must be within a narrow(!) dead-end(!) street. That's a lot of prerequisites to be relevant. Also the term turning circle is not as widely used and precisely defined as mini-roundabout (please correct me if this is wrong). So how should we treat this case? To throw in my opinion as a starter: as relevance is much smaller, I would guess an additional tag like centre_island=yes/no or something similar should be sufficient. If it is not there it is simply unknown if there is an island or not, which in fact is the way data consumers have to treat turning_circle right now. Martin P.S: I worth seeing video was posted on a different mailing list: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzZHyTwjPug Yes, this in fact is a mini-roundabout, however a maxi one ;-) And yes, it was a regular junction a few days before. How I know that? Watch it! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
2012/5/11 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: However one thing that was already mentioned is still left: turning_circle . We have the same problem here as with mini_roundabout, as the tag should only be used if there is no island present but in fact it is also used in such cases. What are the minimum measurements of a turning circle, what is the maximum above which it is suggested to draw an area? IMHO this turning_circle node is an approximation anyway (if in doubt you can not deduct from it in its current form whether you will get problems with your large vehicle or not). It could of course be enhanced (shape, orientation, width, length, ...) but if you did this you'd be faster (and still more flexible and accurate and more intuitively refineable) by simply drawing it rather than inserting these parametrically. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: As expected the user NE2 tries to rewrite the wiki so that it fits his personal view of the world: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundaboutaction=history He constantly ignores the fact, that a small roundabout is not a mini-roundabout as different rules apply to them and they are differently constructed. He also ignores the fact the e.g. routers are unable to generate correct routes for large vehicles. I therefore reverted his changes - now for the second time. Well as I pointed out in the previous discussion, it isn't just his view. Outside of areas where mini roundabouts actually exist (the UK) his edit does reflect how users have actually used this tag. Maybe this isn't ideal but it is what the data reflects. Toby ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Outside of areas where mini roundabouts actually exist (the UK) Add France in your areas list. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Well as I pointed out in the previous discussion, it isn't just his view. Outside of areas where mini roundabouts actually exist (the UK) his edit does reflect how users have actually used this tag. Maybe this isn't ideal but it is what the data reflects. Well, I'm going to have to agree with Martin that the data might be a bit torqued on this to not reflect what the words actually mean. This is something more readily fixed than breaking the tag, since mini_roundabout is by definition a traversible object, but one with a hard median isn't. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Outside of areas where mini roundabouts actually exist (the UK) his edit does reflect how users have actually used this tag. This also isn't an exclusively UK object, there's at least one in the US as well (and probably more, but so far only encountered one). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 11:05 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: mini_roundabout is by definition a traversible object, but one with a hard median isn't. A mini-roundabout may be by definition traversable, but that doesn't mean highway=mini_roundabout is, any more than a highway=trunk is a trunk road or a highway=motorway_junction is a motorway junction. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
Martin, He constantly ignores the fact, that a small roundabout is not a mini-roundabout as different rules apply to them and they are differently constructed. He also ignores the fact the e.g. routers are unable to generate correct routes for large vehicles. I therefore reverted his changes - now for the second time. I looked at the discussion part of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundabout and I am missing any entry on this point. Wouldn't it be better too add some remark about this difference of interpretations into the wiki itself - I thought that's what the discussion tab is intended for. Volker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
Nathan, formally you are correct, but it has been OSM practice to base its tags on UK definitions. Why should we abandon this practice in this case. In addition, to my knowledge, they invented the mini-roundabout there and defined it with a traversable centre piece. Volker (Italy) On 10 May 2012 17:08, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/10/2012 11:05 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: mini_roundabout is by definition a traversible object, but one with a hard median isn't. A mini-roundabout may be by definition traversable, but that doesn't mean highway=mini_roundabout is, any more than a highway=trunk is a trunk road or a highway=motorway_junction is a motorway junction. __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: As expected the user NE2 tries to rewrite the wiki so that it fits his personal view of the world: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundaboutaction=history I've made some significant edits to this article to improve the overall quality, as well as hopefully provide text which satisfies both concerned parties. Additionally I added a reference to the US Federal Highway Administration which defines mini-roundabouts as having traversable middle portions. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
2012/5/10 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Well as I pointed out in the previous discussion, it isn't just his view. Outside of areas where mini roundabouts actually exist (the UK) his edit does reflect how users have actually used this tag. Maybe this isn't ideal but it is what the data reflects. Well, I'm going to have to agree with Martin that the data might be a bit torqued on this to not reflect what the words actually mean. This is something more readily fixed than breaking the tag, since mini_roundabout is by definition a traversible object, but one with a hard median isn't. +1, I also agree. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 11:21 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: Nathan, formally you are correct, but it has been OSM practice to base its tags on UK definitions. Nope. In the UK, not all highway=trunks are trunk roads. Some have been detrunked but remain in the primary route network. highway=motorway_junction is used for junctions on all types of roads, not just motorways. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 11:30 AM, Josh Doe wrote: I've made some significant edits to this article to improve the overall quality, as well as hopefully provide text which satisfies both concerned parties. Nope - you said that it's erroneous to use the tag as many mappers have, for a miniature roundabout that may not strictly be a mini-roundabout. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 10/05/12 17:07, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Outside of areas where mini roundabouts actually exist (the UK) his edit does reflect how users have actually used this tag. This also isn't an exclusively UK object, there's at least one in the US as well (and probably more, but so far only encountered one). Yes, I came along them in Germany and France ! Why should we have two tags for roundabouts which differe only in size. We do not do this with other objects/tags. Mini_roundabout and roundabout are two different things and that for we need two different tags ! Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 11:52 AM, fly wrote: Why should we have two tags for roundabouts which differe only in size. We do not do this with other objects/tags. waterway=ditch/canal and stream/river? (By the way, we don't currently have two node tags for roundabouts. Hence the current situation.) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/10/2012 11:52 AM, fly wrote: Why should we have two tags for roundabouts which differe only in size. We do not do this with other objects/tags. waterway=ditch/canal and stream/river? (By the way, we don't currently have two node tags for roundabouts. Hence the current situation.) Agreed, for a long time I used highway=mini_roundabout for cul-de-sacs with islands (usually planted with trees). I propose we start accepting junction=roundabout to be used on nodes. This shouldn't produce any problems for data consumers, is logical, and would save a lot of time for tagging the many small roundabouts that exist especially in residential areas. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
2012/5/10 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: I propose we start accepting junction=roundabout to be used on nodes. you can do this but it will always be preliminary and worse than explicit geometry This shouldn't produce any problems for data consumers, is logical, and would save a lot of time for tagging the many small roundabouts that exist especially in residential areas. You will always get the map you deserve ;-) And yes, I agree, some areas seem to not deserve decent mapping. Maybe who lives there sees this different and will start to map sooner or later ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 12:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2012/5/10 Josh Doej...@joshdoe.com: I propose we start accepting junction=roundabout to be used on nodes. you can do this but it will always be preliminary and worse than explicit geometry Why? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/5/10 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: I propose we start accepting junction=roundabout to be used on nodes. you can do this but it will always be preliminary and worse than explicit geometry Hmm, this is like saying you can always just map a school with an outline but it's worse than mapping each building, entrances, playgrounds, fields, goal posts, manhole covers, Users map to the level of detail that they are interested in, we shouldn't discourage contributions by setting a high bar. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
2012/5/10 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: On 5/10/2012 12:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: you can do this but it will always be preliminary and worse than explicit geometry Why? Because it gives you more information (e.g. the radius of the circle, or a more detailed shape in case it isn't a circle). It also gives more detailed information about the shape and the position of the streets that connect at the junction. (in reality they do not meet all in a single point). Finally if you wanted to map what is inside the circle you don't have a serious option without having explicit geometry, especially if it is composed of more than one part. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 12:35 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2012/5/10 Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: On 5/10/2012 12:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: you can do this but it will always be preliminary and worse than explicit geometry Why? Because it gives you more information (e.g. the radius of the circle, or a more detailed shape in case it isn't a circle). It also gives more detailed information about the shape and the position of the streets that connect at the junction. (in reality they do not meet all in a single point). If the streets meet at a single point before the roundabout is plopped down, and no new right-of-way is needed, they still meet at a single point after. Example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.516621,-81.372235spn=0.004195,0.008256gl=ust=kz=18layer=ccbll=28.516619,-81.37239panoid=t0koZzwawvfnkjyszuf29gcbp=12,92.3,,0,10 Radius can be specified on the node (and radius of what? The island? The outside? Halfway in between? Measuring the way gives the latter, arguably the least useful of the three). Finally if you wanted to map what is inside the circle you don't have a serious option without having explicit geometry, especially if it is composed of more than one part. This is not true. What if you want to map the surfaces of a true mini-roundabout? You'd draw a circle of brick or whatever the center is, with the roads passing right through it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/10/2012 11:52 AM, fly wrote: Why should we have two tags for roundabouts which differe only in size. We do not do this with other objects/tags. waterway=ditch/canal and stream/river? (By the way, we don't currently have two node tags for roundabouts. Hence the current situation.) Agreed, for a long time I used highway=mini_roundabout for cul-de-sacs with islands (usually planted with trees). I propose we start accepting junction=roundabout to be used on nodes. This shouldn't produce any problems for data consumers, is logical, and would save a lot of time for tagging the many small roundabouts that exist especially in residential areas. I think I would be willing to go with this solution. It seems the people who actually have mini roundabouts around them are very adamant about their meaning. While I don't really see harm in using it in slightly different circumstances where true mini roundabouts don't exist, I think putting junction=roundabout on nodes is acceptable as well. the JOSM validator will need to be updated to allow this tag on a node without complaining and not require a highway=* tag to go along with it. Mapnik can probably use the same symbol for both. Anything else need to change? (aside from the wiki of course) Toby ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On May 10, 2012 10:32 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: From a quick unscientifically-randomish review of nodes tagged as highway=mini_roundabout, the majority in the United States are NOT traversable (thanks to excellent Bing imagery, out of the few dozen I looked at NONE appeared to be traversable), while I can't tell for other areas of the world due to poorer resolution. Likewise, I've been tracking four states, and the one I previously mentioned in Burien, Washington is the first mini I've seen in the US. I came across it entirely by chance. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 10/05/12 18:31, Josh Doe wrote: For those interested, you can download all current nodes as a zipped OSM file (http://joshd.dev.openstreetmap.org/all_mini_roundabouts_20120510.zip), A *very* quick look at that against Bing imagery in JOSM reveals a pretty broad selection of things around the world that get classified as highway=mini_roundabout: * Yer classic blob of paint in the middle of the road. This might the predominant UK usage, and it's common here, but I'm guesstimating it's more like 50/50 even in the UK because (and this came as a proper surprise to me) it's also used for: * Small roundabouts/traffic circles with defined centres. Sometimes with quite large planted trees. * Big roundabouts/traffic circles, but fairly rarely; perhaps predominating in non-English-speaking countries, or countries which have no concept of size distinctions between their traffic circles? * Unmarked passing places, where cars can overtake each other on narrow roads. * Turning circles at the ends of residential roads, with or without centres. * AFAICT, just random intersections without anything specific. I wonder how it would be possible to get a more systematic analysis of this data extract. Perhaps a small app which grabs relevant Bing tiles for nodes at random and asks the user to classify as yes/no/can't tell...? (But in short the db data sucks and so does the wiki documentation. Perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves is which one to fix up and how... sigh.) -- Andrew Chadwick ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
Okay, well for a quick and dirty, but hopefully fairly randomized approach to randomly sampling and classifying the data against Bing imagery, I wrote a short interactive bit o' Python: https://gist.github.com/2655895 If you're bothered about the data for mini-roundabouts, could you give it a spin please? The code might be useful for other tag wars too, prod me if you want it expanding to ways and closed ways. For a random sampling of 100 nodes tagged highway=mini_roundabout from Josh's set, I visually classified as 1 tc? island traffic calming of some sort 2 parking (either an aisle 10 j (ordinary junction: note that imagery could pre-date a roundabout being built) 15 ? (can't tell: Bing imagery is too blurry or it's not clear) 19 tc (turning circle at the end of a road, with or without a solid centre) 23 r (solid-centred roundabout you physically cannot drive over) 30 m (paint- or bump-centred mini roundabout, traversable) This is the sample-out.put.csv from the gist. That's a worryingly flat distribution: the data is fairly mixed, and there's nearly as many turning circles (which *really do* need tagging as highway=turning_circle) as the (IMO) wrongly classified non-traversable miniature roundabouts. And a worrying number of plain T- or cross-junctions. The predominant usage is for the paint-centred type, but they seem to be somewhat limited by country. It also becomes fairly apparent that personal biases can easily come into play when visually evaluating how a tag is used over *the entire world*, which is why more eyes are probably a good idea. FWIW, I tended to see more flat or bump ones (m in my scheme) in GB, France and Germany, perhaps because more of the corner cases fit my GB expectations better. But I'm hoping my observations will be borne out by others', and that it's about as un-subjective as you can get with this sort of thing. -- Andrew Chadwick ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
I've started tagging local mini_roundabouts with mountable=yes/no. Most have trees and are obviously not. But I'm not exactly sure where the line is. Should one with a low curb, more like a gutter, be considered a true mini-roundabout or not? For example, this one in Kissimmee: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.292105,-81.404818spn=0.004204,0.008256gl=ust=mz=18layer=ccbll=28.292041,-81.404739panoid=USYkfOYkh2zXnjx-zCLrKQcbp=12,122.16,,0,9.06 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 5:31 PM, Andrew Chadwick (lists) wrote: 19 tc (turning circle at the end of a road, with or without a solid centre) Careful - there was a recent dispute over whether a turning circle with an island is really a turning_circle, very reminiscent of this mini_roundabout affair. Currently the wiki says that if it has an island it must be time-consumingly mapped as a looping way. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2012-March/thread.html#9559 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
I just went through the mini_roundabouts in east central Florida. I found one definitely mountable (in an industrial park), 202 definitely not mountable (including some culs-de-sac), 3 that I'm not sure about, and 4 mistagged turning_circles. Obviously this says a lot about roundabout construction practice here, but also shows that many non-mountable roundabouts are being mapped as nodes with highway=mini_roundabout. 105 of those 203 were last edited by me, with 8 other mappers in there, mostly known locals. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 10.05.2012 17:35, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 5/10/2012 11:30 AM, Josh Doe wrote: I've made some significant edits to this article to improve the overall quality, as well as hopefully provide text which satisfies both concerned parties. Nope - you said that it's erroneous to use the tag as many mappers have, for a miniature roundabout that may not strictly be a mini-roundabout. Well, according to the definition it _is_ erroneous. And unless we decide to change the definition, stating this clearly on the wiki page is worthwhile because this has apparently been a common mistake for mappers to make. Now the real question is whether we should change the definition. If we did allow using junction=roundabout on nodes, as has been suggested in this thread, would there be any reason left to prefer mini_roundabout for roundabouts that are not strictly a mini-roundabout? Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
As a UK mapper the main problem as I see it is one of language. When I drive over a mini roundabout I know what I have done, when I drive around a small roundabout I understand the difference. Maybe the problem is that the word 'mini' gets confused with 'small' which in any other context is understandable as they could be interchangeable. Unfortunately a mini roundabout to a UK mapper is just what is is, an excuse for a proper roundabout or a fudged junction. Legally you still have to attempt to follow the radius, you could be charged with careless driving if you drove straight over one and hit another car. I don't think we should berate people, maybe just educate them on a horrible UK export. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 10 May 2012 23:26, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: Now the real question is whether we should change the definition. If we did allow using junction=roundabout on nodes, as has been suggested in this thread, would there be any reason left to prefer mini_roundabout for roundabouts that are not strictly a mini-roundabout? IMO, allowing node junction=roundabout would probably be the right approach for people who just want to dump a simple node down if they don't have good imagery and the place is unsurveyed. Might solve the problem of people not making the distinction between flat mini roundabouts and the bigger sort, or not making the distinction in the definitively correct place. Not that we should be catering for people who don't go out and map it properly (... hippy!... /oldjoke) so much, but dumping a node is one way of getting maps done quickly at low degrees of detail... There's still a lot of bad data out there, depending on how you define badness. At the other end of the scale, there's a good argument for extending junction=roundabout to /relations/ as well. In areas with routes that carve up big roundabouts and users who insist on mapping routes to that level of awkward detail (sigh...), it may be the only technically correct way of representing a big roundabout junction. -- Andrew Chadwick ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On 5/10/2012 6:47 PM, Andrew Chadwick (lists) wrote: Might solve the problem of people not making the distinction between flat mini roundabouts and the bigger sort, or not making the distinction in the definitively correct place. You're conflating size of intersection with height of center. There are a lot of roundabouts around here that are as small as the UK mini-roundabout examples I've seen, and are actually smaller in footprint than the one here with a flat center (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/500023518). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: Well, according to the definition it _is_ erroneous. Amen. Now the real question is whether we should change the definition.(...) would there be any reason left to prefer mini_roundabout for roundabouts that are not strictly a mini-roundabout? After reading through the thread that brings out various good points I think that we should: 1) Allow tagging of small-ish roundabouts with merely a junction=roundabout tagged node. It's provides a good first crack at mapping things. 2) Especially allow (if not encourage) tagging of small (if not miniature) sized roundabouts with a center island / that are not-traversible with junction=roundabout 3) We should not confuse mini-roundabout and small miniature roundabouts. They are clearly different types of objects just like culverts and bridges (which are also often confused). - I checked and fixed all of Caribbean and found zero mini-roundabouts (for those spots that had good enough imagery). Most were small roundabouts, many turning circles, some turning loops (not many), few dead-ends with clearly no reason for any turning*/junction tag. As I can't really understand why we should continue to tag things evidently wrong I also fixed Southern Florida up to the level of I-595/I-75. In FL the biggest problems were center island (-junction=roundabout), turning_circles, some turning loops, no dead-ends. I found 4 real mini-roundabouts in S. FL: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/99383970 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/99383976 and http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1747303715 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1747303913 I think the reason for this confusion is pretty clearly the - missing support for tagging small roundabouts by just tagging the node with junction=roundabout - lack of emphasis on the documentation that mini-roundabouts are not just small roundabouts - combined with the fact that few people in the US have seen mini-roundabouts. - and the normal mistakes that come with a wiki-like Open community-based system. (Which I assume to be the biggest reason for wrongly tagged turning_circles, the sign of the mini-roundabout is so tempting..). All in all, nothing that we shouldn't simply fix and move on. Now, should we change the mini_roundabout from highway=* to junction=* -- I don't care / have a strong opinion but it's probably easier not to touch it. Cheers from Haiti, -Jaakko http://osm.org/user/jaakkoh -- jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +509-37-269154 * http://go.hel.cc/MyProfile ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: [snip] After reading through the thread that brings out various good points I think that we should: 1) Allow tagging of small-ish roundabouts with merely a junction=roundabout tagged node. It's provides a good first crack at mapping things. 2) Especially allow (if not encourage) tagging of small (if not miniature) sized roundabouts with a center island / that are not-traversible with junction=roundabout 3) We should not confuse mini-roundabout and small miniature roundabouts. They are clearly different types of objects just like culverts and bridges (which are also often confused). [snip] Agreed on all points. I've been fixing up westendguy's mini_roundabouts, as almost all of his 1300 are actually turning_circle. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dispute on highway=mini_roundabout
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: Agreed on all points. I've been fixing up westendguy's mini_roundabouts, as almost all of his 1300 are actually turning_circle. I should mention that the todo list plugin in JOSM is great for this: just add a hundred or so nodes, then click Pass on any turning_circles (it will select and zoom to the next on the list, I suggest lowering the advanced preference edit.zoom-enlarge-bbox to 0.0010 to get a closer view), and click Mark on non-turning_circles to take it off the list, then when you're at the end of the list right-click and choose Select Unmarked and Zoom, then change the tag to highway=turning_circle. The remaining mini_roundabouts can then be corrected as needed. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
