Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
2014-12-19 20:53 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: I am happy with current rendering, and I want to keep that when the names are stripped. The OSM mapnik layer will hopefully add the amin_name to the border labels, so that Gutenbrunn will show up as Gemeinde Gutenbrunn again, or as Gutenbrunn (Gemeinde) or Gemeinde: Gutenbrunn or similar. What about Marktgemeinde Gutenbrunn (that's what they call themselves on their official homepage)? How would you like the Berlin border labeled? Well, I guess just Berlin, because there's only one administrative unit with that name, and everybody in the world knows what Berlin is. no, most people in the world don't know about the administrative details and would think that Berlin is a city/municipality and not a Land (something similar to a state) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 22.12.2014 10:32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: What about Marktgemeinde Gutenbrunn (that's what they call themselves on their official homepage)? No, that's advertising language, they are showing off their market right in order to impress their visitors and to attract investors. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 6:23 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: In the UK designation= is in wide usage for this. +1 I think designation=* fits perfectly with what is intended by the OP's proposal. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 18.12.2014 17:25, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: yes, legally it's Einheitsgemeinde, but that's maybe not a title... The Land has the title Stadtstaat, and of course it's also Bundeshauptstadt. Which one should go into admin_title and why? Have a look at Gemeinde Gutenbrunn: http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/406819 Zoom to the borders and see how they are labeled. It reads Gemeinde Gutenbrunn, Gemeinde Bärnkopf, and so on. In the Talk-AT mailinglist, someone raised the issue that Gemeinde Gutenbrunn is not the correct name. It's actually just Gutenbrunn. But imagine the borders just labeled Gutenbrunn. You won't know whether it's a commune, or a district, or a state, etc. Some borders are state border, district border, and commune border at the same time. They are labeled with the names of state, district, and commune. You won't know which is which. I am happy with current rendering, and I want to keep that when the names are stripped. The OSM mapnik layer will hopefully add the amin_name to the border labels, so that Gutenbrunn will show up as Gemeinde Gutenbrunn again, or as Gutenbrunn (Gemeinde) or Gemeinde: Gutenbrunn or similar. How would you like the Berlin border labeled? Well, I guess just Berlin, because there's only one administrative unit with that name, and everybody in the world knows what Berlin is. This is really an exceptional case. But imagine Brandenburg would be called Land Berlin. Then you would probably want to distinguish the city of Berlin from the state of Berlin. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 17.12.2014 22:08, Andreas Goss wrote: So what do you do with Berlin? State? City? Stadtstaat (Citystate)? As far as I can see, Berlin is a Bundesland and a Gemeinde. So you should have one boundary relation for each level. If you decide to use a boundary relation for the top level only, admin_title=Bundesland seems correct (matching the admin_level), although semicolon notation may also be possible. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
2014-12-17 20:11 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: On 17.12.2014 16:56, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: isn't this already covered by name and its variants? e.g. name=Bezirk Zwettl short_name=Zwettl or name=Zwettl official_name=Bezirk Zwettl ? No, because the official name is just Zwettl. But in most cases when you talk about Bezirk Zwettl (district of Zwettl), you say Bezirk Zwettl, in order to make it clear that you are not talking about the city of Zwettl. actually for this example you're wrong, the official name is Zwettl-Niederösterreich, you can see this for instance here: http://www.statistik.at/blickgem/gemDetail.do?gemnr=32530 or in this law: http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/Dokumente/LgblNO/LRNI_2011122/LRNI_2011122.pdf And another question, is this also aiming at city titles, e.g. Universitätsstadt, Freie und Hansestadt? No. There are plenty of these bogus titles for each city. I don't think bogus is the correct term here, have a look at the constitution of the Freie und Hansestadt Hamburg, Art. 1 (name): http://www.hamburg.de/contentblob/1604280/data/verfassung-2009.pdf cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
2014-12-18 13:52 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: On 17.12.2014 22:08, Andreas Goss wrote: So what do you do with Berlin? State? City? Stadtstaat (Citystate)? the official name AFAIK is Land Berlin As far as I can see, Berlin is a Bundesland and a Gemeinde. The term Bundesland is of mostly colloquial use, the official term is Land, so it is Land Berlin for the admin level 4 entity. At the same time, it is also Stadt (city), and the respective public responsibilities are not separated (the precise legal term is Einheitsgemeinde). You can see this in Art. 1 of its constitution: http://gesetze.berlin.de/default.aspx?vpath=bibdata%2Fges%2FBlnVerf%2Fcont%2FBlnVerf.A1.htm I had some years ago proposed to have both entities mapped in OSM (Land Berlin and Stadt Berlin, with identical territory), but this was rejected by the time ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 17.12.2014 23:23, Colin Smale wrote: In the UK designation= is in wide usage for this. I don't know if it is typically a UK thing (it wouldn't surprise me) but local governments sometimes have the right to change their style - for example a civil parish can choose autonomously to call itself a community council. It can also choose to call itself a town council although I suspect this needs cooperation from its parent authority. And a council can become a city council basically only through a central decision. I think that the name of the council does not matter. Some districts (admin_level=8) have the status of borough. All this doesn't change the legal powers and responsibilities of the council, it's all about what they are called. There's a lot of snobism involved as well... I have tried to summarise a tagging scheme for UK local authorities here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Csmale/ukboundaries So far we have destination=* for the UK, official_status=* for Russia, and name:prefix for other countries. That diversity makes the tags essentially unusable for applications. It's a pity that every national OSM community make up their own tags, without caring what others do, as if there were berlin walls around each country. Personally I don't care if the key is admin_title=*, designation=*, or official_status=*. We just should decide for one. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 2014-12-18 14:42, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 17.12.2014 23:23, Colin Smale wrote: In the UK designation= is in wide usage for this. I don't know if it is typically a UK thing (it wouldn't surprise me) but local governments sometimes have the right to change their style - for example a civil parish can choose autonomously to call itself a community council. It can also choose to call itself a town council although I suspect this needs cooperation from its parent authority. And a council can become a city council basically only through a central decision. I think that the name of the council does not matter. Exactly, that's my point. A simple civil parish and Salisbury City Council are administratively equivalent and are both tagged designation=civil_parish. This tagging should not, however tempting or logical some people might think it, be based on the name, but on the legal/constitutional status. Some districts (admin_level=8) have the status of borough. All this doesn't change the legal powers and responsibilities of the council, it's all about what they are called. There's a lot of snobism involved as well... I have tried to summarise a tagging scheme for UK local authorities here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Csmale/ukboundaries [1] So far we have destination=* for the UK, official_status=* for Russia, and name:prefix for other countries. That diversity makes the tags essentially unusable for applications. It's a pity that every national OSM community make up their own tags, without caring what others do, as if there were berlin walls around each country. Finding the right balance between universal, world-wide tagging and local conventions (at whatever level) is one of the biggest challenges we have. Usually any attempt at formalisation gets either shot down in flames by a vociferous minority or ignored by the silent majority. Personally I don't care if the key is admin_title=*, designation=*, or official_status=*. We just should decide for one. +1 from me, good luck with getting the consensus, and then getting the loser to retag everything... Links: -- [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Csmale/ukboundaries ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 18.12.2014 14:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: the official name AFAIK is Land Berlin Sounds good. So it's admin_title=Land, then. As far as I can see, Berlin is a Bundesland and a Gemeinde. The term Bundesland is of mostly colloquial use, the official term is Land, so it is Land Berlin for the admin level 4 entity. At the same time, it is also Stadt (city), and the respective public responsibilities are not separated (the precise legal term is Einheitsgemeinde). You can see this in Art. 1 of its constitution: http://gesetze.berlin.de/default.aspx?vpath=bibdata%2Fges%2FBlnVerf%2Fcont%2FBlnVerf.A1.htm AFAIK, Stadt only means some privilege (Stadtrecht), it's not an administrative devision. I had some years ago proposed to have both entities mapped in OSM (Land Berlin and Stadt Berlin, with identical territory), but this was rejected by the time ;-) It's not too late to change it, but it's probably not that important, except for generating lists of Gemeinden. Berlin will be missing in those lists. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
2014-12-18 16:42 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: As far as I can see, Berlin is a Bundesland and a Gemeinde. The term Bundesland is of mostly colloquial use, the official term is Land, so it is Land Berlin for the admin level 4 entity. At the same time, it is also Stadt (city), and the respective public responsibilities are not separated (the precise legal term is Einheitsgemeinde). You can see this in Art. 1 of its constitution: http://gesetze.berlin.de/default.aspx?vpath=bibdata%2Fges%2FBlnVerf%2Fcont%2FBlnVerf.A1.htm AFAIK, Stadt only means some privilege (Stadtrecht), it's not an administrative devision. In Berlin there is no such thing like a Gemeinde there are the Bezirke divided into Ortsteile, and while the first do correspond roughly to Landkreisen (regarding the number of inhabitants) they don't have the power (they are indeed not even Kommunen, the term is Selbstverwaltungseinheiten Berlins ohne Rechtspersönlichkeit). Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen are also called Stadtstaat. Between the Gemeinde and the Land there is typically the Landkreis or Kreisfreie Stadt (and in some cases the Regierungsbezirk), have a look at this illustration for an overview of the German administrative system: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Administrative_Gliederung_Deutschlands.svg Looking at Berlin in OSM, I have also found this tag which seems to have the same intentions as your proposal and is used more than 50k times: name:prefix=Land und Kreisfreie Stadt http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Aprefix cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 18.12.2014 16:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: In Berlin there is no such thing like a Gemeinde there are the Bezirke divided into Ortsteile, and while the first do correspond roughly to Landkreisen (regarding the number of inhabitants) they don't have the power (they are indeed not even Kommunen, the term is Selbstverwaltungseinheiten Berlins ohne Rechtspersönlichkeit). Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen are also called Stadtstaat. Between the Gemeinde and the Land there is typically the Landkreis or Kreisfreie Stadt (and in some cases the Regierungsbezirk), have a look at this illustration for an overview of the German administrative system: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Administrative_Gliederung_Deutschlands.svg Whatever. I am sure that there is some correct name of the administrative division type. It is up to the german community to find out. Looking at Berlin in OSM, I have also found this tag which seems to have the same intentions as your proposal and is used more than 50k times: name:prefix=Land und Kreisfreie Stadt http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Aprefix This has some serious drawbacks, see the rationale in my proposal. That's why I started the proposal in the first place. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
Sorry, the German examples don't mean much to me. Do the examples below show what you're proposing? name=Chicago, admin_title=city, admin_level... name=California, admin_title=state, admin_level On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: This is about a new attribute for administrative devisions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/admin_title -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
2014-12-17 16:25 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: This is about a new attribute for administrative devisions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/admin_title isn't this already covered by name and its variants? e.g. name=Bezirk Zwettl short_name=Zwettl or name=Zwettl official_name=Bezirk Zwettl ? And another question, is this also aiming at city titles, e.g. Universitätsstadt, Freie und Hansestadt? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
On 17.12.2014 16:56, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: isn't this already covered by name and its variants? e.g. name=Bezirk Zwettl short_name=Zwettl or name=Zwettl official_name=Bezirk Zwettl ? No, because the official name is just Zwettl. But in most cases when you talk about Bezirk Zwettl (district of Zwettl), you say Bezirk Zwettl, in order to make it clear that you are not talking about the city of Zwettl. And another question, is this also aiming at city titles, e.g. Universitätsstadt, Freie und Hansestadt? No. There are plenty of these bogus titles for each city. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
So what do you do with Berlin? State? City? Stadtstaat (Citystate)? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*
In the UK designation= is in wide usage for this. I don't know if it is typically a UK thing (it wouldn't surprise me) but local governments sometimes have the right to change their style - for example a civil parish can choose autonomously to call itself a community council. It can also choose to call itself a town council although I suspect this needs cooperation from its parent authority. And a council can become a city council basically only through a central decision. Some districts (admin_level=8) have the status of borough. All this doesn't change the legal powers and responsibilities of the council, it's all about what they are called. There's a lot of snobism involved as well... I have tried to summarise a tagging scheme for UK local authorities here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Csmale/ukboundaries It is not official in any way, they are only my own notes at present - based on current usage and my thoughts to keep my work on these boundaries consistent. I expect the system in Germany is a bit less variable, although the different Länder seem to have very different local government structures. Colin On 2014-12-17 16:25, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: This is about a new attribute for administrative devisions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/admin_title [1] Links: -- [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/admin_title ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
