Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Mateusz Konieczny]

1 Jun 2019, 11:05 by marc_marc_...@hotmail.com:

> Le 01.06.19 à 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
>
>> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, 
>> if you then have no idea where!
>>
>
> EDIT: fix a wrong word
>
> in some places it is still very useful information to know that a POI 
> has an changing table, it will be enough to ask it for its location.
> it is always much more practical than asking the 20 poi of the place
> to find the only poi with an adapted infrastructure
>
Or it can be used as one of criteria in search for only child-friendly 
locations.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[marc marc]

Le 01.06.19 à 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, 
> if you then have no idea where!

EDIT: fix a wrong word

in some places it is still very useful information to know that a POI 
has an changing table, it will be enough to ask it for its location.
it is always much more practical than asking the 20 poi of the place
to find the only poi with an adapted infrastructure
the proposal is perfect at this level: you can inform its existence on 
the object of the museum if you do not have enough precise information, 
or you can inform the information on the object of the toilets or on an 
indoor=room if you know how to represent it in a valid way
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[marc marc]

Le 01.06.19 à 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, 
> if you then have no idea where!

in some places it is still very useful information to know that a POI 
has an establishment, it will be enough to ask it for its location.
it is always much more practical than making the 20 poi of the place to 
find the only poi with an adapted infrastructure
the proposal is perfect at this level: you can inform its existence on 
the object of the museum if you do not have enough precise information, 
or you can inform the information on the object of the toilets or on an 
indoor=room if you know how to represent it in a valid way
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jun 2019, at 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> I thought that the idea was that this tag would show where the changing room 
> (room with the change table) is?
> 
> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, if you then have no 
> idea where!


there may be smaller objects which can have a changing table, e.g. a bathroom 
inside the museum. 
If we were to tag individual changing tables, the tag would look different, 
e.g. amenity=changing_table
(we could also do both, but the current proposal is about a property, not a 
feature)


Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 25 May 2019 at 18:59, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> we are not going to tag the changing table itself with this tag, rather we
> will be tagging that a feature (like a restaurant, a shop, a museum, a
> bathroom or a cafe) provides a changing table.
>

I thought that the idea was that this tag would show where the changing
room (room with the change table) is?

It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, if you then have
no idea where!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[althio]

Hi tagging, hi Warin,

Sorry to interrupt, but I disagree at this point.
* * *
TL;DR:
changing_table: "A tag for tagging changing tables"
was indeed bad.

changing_table: "provides a surface for changing the nappy (diaper) of
an infant or young child"
is just right (explains that "table" can be a "generic surface", that
"changing" refers to "changing babies".

"changing the nappy (diaper)" is well-suited in a description, no need
to define what "change a diaper" means
* * *

We should aim for '*self-explanatory* *description*', the gold
standard being duck tagging.
We can have a lot of self-referencing, which means the key-value is
well suited to describe the object, with a short and clear text as
much as possible.
On the other side I think we should avoid long, complicated sentences,
or escaping terms (circumlocution)
a few examples:
amenity = hospital: A hospital providing in-patient medical treatment
amenity = school: A primary or secondary school (pupils typically aged 6 to 18)
wikipedia = *: Provides a link to Wikipedia's article about the feature
religion = *: Defines the specific religion

I completely disagree we should have '*definition*' and avoid
'*self-referencing*'.
OSM wiki is a documentation with *description* and use of tags,
but it is not a dictionary for *definition* of terms.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 27/05/19 20:27, Valor Naram wrote:
Did it, see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self 
referencing description

From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




sent from a phone

> On 27. May 2019, at 04:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Almost agree :)
>
> "A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or
young child"
>
> Might remove the "young child" for brevity?
>
> Martin?


I agree with Joseph‘s wife, as it is about a property. Young child
could be removed, typically children get rid of their nappies at
around 1,5-3 years, this is perfectly covered by „baby“



Still self referencing...


changing_table definition= "provides a surface for changing the nappy 
(diaper) of an infant or young child"


changing appears on both sides - therefore self referencing.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Did it, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone> On 27. May 2019, at 04:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:> > Almost agree :)> > "A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"> > Might remove the "young child" for brevity?> > Martin?I agree with Joseph‘s wife, as it is about a property. Young child could be removed, typically children get rid of their nappies at around 1,5-3 years, this is perfectly covered by „baby“Cheers, Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. May 2019, at 04:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Almost agree :)
> 
> "A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"
> 
> Might remove the "young child" for brevity?
> 
> Martin?


I agree with Joseph‘s wife, as it is about a property. Young child could be 
removed, typically children get rid of their nappies at around 1,5-3 years, 
this is perfectly covered by „baby“

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 27/05/19 12:02, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

I agree that the subject is missing (I'm a native American English speaker).

My wife suggests:

"provides a surface for changing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"


Almost agree :)

"A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"

Might remove the "young child" for brevity?

Martin?



On 5/27/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 26/05/19 19:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>:

 Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very
 young children."



I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject
was missing?

Is it tagging a physical object or the provision for an activity???
I think the 'subject' is 'replacing' in this case.




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree that the subject is missing (I'm a native American English speaker).

My wife suggests:

"provides a surface for changing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"

On 5/27/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26/05/19 19:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>> >:
>>
>> Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very
>> young children."
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject
>> was missing?
>
> Is it tagging a physical object or the provision for an activity???
> I think the 'subject' is 'replacing' in this case.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 26/05/19 19:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:


Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very
young children."



I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject 
was missing?


Is it tagging a physical object or the provision for an activity???
I think the 'subject' is 'replacing' in this case.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young
> children."



I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject was
missing?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 25/05/19 18:58, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 25. May 2019, at 09:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the 
nappy/diaper of babies or young children.

Pedantic hat on.

Self references:
babies ... plural  of baby
changing - repeated


the proposed key is changing_table not baby changing table, no self reference


Arr reference the wrong page ... my error. (Told you so :) )

Correct page is 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table






'Provides' not needed.
--- What I would do?
Delete Provides.
Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'



actually “provides” is needed here: we are not going to tag the changing table 
itself with this tag, rather we will be tagging that a feature (like a 
restaurant, a shop, a museum, a bathroom or a cafe) provides a changing table.


Then it does not need 'a place' ...

"A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children."

Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children."

Chose one or the other but not both?




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. May 2019, at 09:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the 
> nappy/diaper of babies or young children.
> 
> Pedantic hat on.
> 
> Self references:
> babies ... plural  of baby
> changing - repeated


the proposed key is changing_table not baby changing table, no self reference 



> 
> 'Provides' not needed.
> --- What I would do?
> Delete Provides.
> Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
> delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'



actually “provides” is needed here: we are not going to tag the changing table 
itself with this tag, rather we will be tagging that a feature (like a 
restaurant, a shop, a museum, a bathroom or a cafe) provides a changing table. 

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 25/05/19 17:46, Valor Naram wrote:

Did it

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

"A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children."


Too quick .. wait, say, a day and see if there are any other thoughts... 
I can be wrong!



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self 
referencing description

From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
CC:


On 25/05/19 17:15, Valor Naram wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> something else that needs to be discussed/improved before
starting the
> second voting?
>


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the
nappy/diaper of babies or young children.

Pedantic hat on.

Self references:
babies ... plural  of baby
changing - repeated

'Provides' not needed.
--- What I would do?
Delete Provides.
Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: A place for replacing the
nappy/diaper of very young children. ???



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Did ithttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table"A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children." Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: On 25/05/19 17:15, Valor Naram wrote:> Hey all,>> something else that needs to be discussed/improved before starting the > second voting?>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_tableKey:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the nappy/diaper of babies or young children.Pedantic hat on.Self references:babies ... plural  of babychanging - repeated'Provides' not needed.--- What I would do?Delete Provides.Change 'changing' to 'replacing'delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'Key:baby_changing_table Definition: A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children. ???___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 25/05/19 17:15, Valor Naram wrote:

Hey all,

something else that needs to be discussed/improved before starting the 
second voting?





https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the 
nappy/diaper of babies or young children.


Pedantic hat on.

Self references:
babies ... plural  of baby
changing - repeated

'Provides' not needed.
--- What I would do?
Delete Provides.
Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: A place for replacing the 
nappy/diaper of very young children. ???




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Hey all,something else that needs to be discussed/improved before starting the second voting?CheerioSören alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Valor Naram To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Ok. Changed itSee https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Am Do., 23. Mai 2019 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :I have changed the description for the proposal at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as suggested.current description reads: "Provides the infrastructure for changing the nappy/diaper of babies or young children"I think this is too inclusive, to me it would suggest that everything that is needed will be provided (like in the german drugstore example, they provide tissue, nappies, a sheet of paper underneath, disinfectant for the parents). What should be described is the minimum. IMHO this is a horizontal surface suitable to change a baby, i.e. sufficient light should be provided, wind should be shielded, possibility to wash your hands would make perfectly sense but is not always available). If this is a property, the description could be as simple as "provides a place to change a baby's nappy".Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Ok. Changed itSee https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Am Do., 23. Mai 2019 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :I have changed the description for the proposal at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as suggested.current description reads: "Provides the infrastructure for changing the nappy/diaper of babies or young children"I think this is too inclusive, to me it would suggest that everything that is needed will be provided (like in the german drugstore example, they provide tissue, nappies, a sheet of paper underneath, disinfectant for the parents). What should be described is the minimum. IMHO this is a horizontal surface suitable to change a baby, i.e. sufficient light should be provided, wind should be shielded, possibility to wash your hands would make perfectly sense but is not always available). If this is a property, the description could be as simple as "provides a place to change a baby's nappy".Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 23. Mai 2019 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :

> I have changed the description for the proposal at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as
> suggested.



current description reads: "Provides the infrastructure for changing the
nappy/diaper of babies or young children"

I think this is too inclusive, to me it would suggest that everything that
is needed will be provided (like in the german drugstore example, they
provide tissue, nappies, a sheet of paper underneath, disinfectant for the
parents). What should be described is the minimum. IMHO this is a
horizontal surface suitable to change a baby, i.e. sufficient light should
be provided, wind should be shielded, possibility to wash your hands would
make perfectly sense but is not always available). If this is a property,
the description could be as simple as "provides a place to change a baby's
nappy".

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 23/05/19 18:51, Valor Naram wrote:
I have changed the description for the proposal at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table 
as suggested.



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self 
referencing description

From: marc marc
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
CC:


Le 23.05.19 à 01:03, Warin a écrit :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table
> 'self referencing description'
> So what is a better description for OSM use?
> "an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"

someone in the profession pointed out that there is no adult table,
even in a specialized environment, I don't see the point
in keeping a confusion in the description.

proposal:
an infrastructure adapted to change nappies/diapers for babies
or young children



It may not be 'adapted' but purpose built.

Possibly ?
"provision to replace nappies/diapers for babies or young children" 

This removes;
 the self reference to "change"

the reference to a physical object of "infrastructure"
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

I have changed the description for the proposal at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as suggested. Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: marc marc To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: Le 23.05.19 à 01:03, Warin a écrit :> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table> 'self referencing description'> So what is a better description for OSM use?> "an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"someone in the profession pointed out that there is no adult table,even in a specialized environment, I don't see the pointin keeping a confusion in the description.proposal:an infrastructure adapted to change nappies/diapers for babiesor young children___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[marc marc]

Le 23.05.19 à 01:03, Warin a écrit :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table
> 'self referencing description'
> So what is a better description for OSM use?
> "an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"

someone in the profession pointed out that there is no adult table,
even in a specialized environment, I don't see the point
in keeping a confusion in the description.

proposal:
an infrastructure adapted to change nappies/diapers for babies
or young children
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

The present definition for the tag 'changing_table' is "A tag for 
tagging changing tables".



This is a 'self referencing description'. One way of 
testing/demonstrating this is to remove any words in the description 
that are present in the source.


This would make the description "A for " ... and that demonstrates the 
failing of a self referencing description, they add no real information 
to aid a person who does not know what is mean by the tag 'changing_table'.


-

So what is a better description for OSM use? The tag is to be used to 
indicate the presence of an aid to replacing babies nappies, so start 
with that in a broad sense?


"an aid to replacing clothing"

That could be applied to dolls, animals etc .. so make it for humans, 
usually babies?



"an aid to replacing human, usually babies, clothing"

Clothing might be too general, so reduce it to nappies/diaper?


"an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"








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