Re: [Tagging] Page about mismatching key names (historic=wayside_shrine used for modern ones etc)
Looks like a good idea - moved Jan 24, 2020, 18:33 by derickso...@gmail.com: > Rather than "Mismatching key names", what about "Counterintuitive key names"? > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 9:20 AM Volker Schmidt <> vosc...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> OK, >> my wording was intentionally provoking. But this basic conceptual issue is >> at the base of many unnecessary tagging modifications. >> I refrained from adding the OSM version of the duck principle. >> One of the items in the proposed page illustrates well why I think people >> need to get the message that we only use words as codes, not as meaning. >> >> We had for a long time waterway=canal and for the outline we used >> water=riverbank (and we still mostly do use that combination). Perfectly >> working, we did not care if we were mapping the bank of a river or the bank >> of a canal. At some point someone came up with the idea that canal is not a >> river hence a riverbank is not a canalbank and introduced water=canal for >> the concept of the canalbank. >> (I am a bit exaggerating here the reason for the change was different - see >> the thread "[Tagging] >> Canal>> banks") >> >> My basic message is tags are made of key and value and everything is >> codewords. We have build a whole structure into the codewords with several >> levels of colons in order to make extracting things form the database >> easier, but this is not part of the core structure of the database. >> >> There is no mismatch between natural=water and water=canal if you understand >> that all keys and values are codewords. Human readability is a convenience, >> but is not reflected in the data structure at all. >> >> >> >> On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 15:31, Jarek Piórkowski <>> ja...@piorkowski.ca>> > >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 09:12, Volker Schmidt <>>> vosc...@gmail.com>>> > >>> wrote: >>> > Il ven 24 gen 2020, 11:51 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <>>> >>> tagging@openstreetmap.org>>> > ha scritto: >>> >> One of topics often appearing is mismatch between meaning of key >>> >> and key text. >>> >> ... >>> >> It is created at >>> >> >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mismatching_key_names >>> >> but page name is horrible. Ideas for a better one is welcome. >>> >> >>> >> Also, I only started it - help in expanding and improving it >>> >> is highly welcomed. >>> > >>> > These are no mismatches. >>> > Keys and values are in principle arbitrary sequences of alphanumeric >>> characters. By convention we try to make them mnemonic by using strings >>> that somehow help us remember the meaning of the string. By convention we >>> use British English words for keys and values, plus numbers, mainly for >>> values. >>> > >>> > This explanation needs to be placed prominently on the new page, to >>> avoid any doubt. >>> >>> Please no. That wiki page is a much better explanation than this "it's >>> only symbols". >>> >>> Keys and values are ways for us as human editors to communicate with >>> each other. Those are commonly called "words" - well, at least in >>> Canadian English, I don't know about British English. >>> >>> It is definitely worth explaining why some words as OSM editors use >>> them are different from words as the rest of the world (or a subset of >>> the world) might use them. >>> >>> --Jarek >>> >>> ___ >>> Tagging mailing list >>> >>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >>> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >>> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > > > -- > Evan Derickson > derickso...@gmail.com >___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Page about mismatching key names (historic=wayside_shrine used for modern ones etc)
Jan 24, 2020, 18:19 by vosc...@gmail.com: > Human readability is a convenience, but is not reflected in the data > structure at all. > I strongly disagree with this. Nearly all tags are human readable, with rare exception like extremely complicated opening hours or wikidata (where lack of human readability is an often repeated complaint). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Page about mismatching key names (historic=wayside_shrine used for modern ones etc)
Rather than "Mismatching key names", what about "Counterintuitive key names"? On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 9:20 AM Volker Schmidt wrote: > OK, > my wording was intentionally provoking. But this basic conceptual issue is > at the base of many unnecessary tagging modifications. > I refrained from adding the OSM version of the duck principle. > One of the items in the proposed page illustrates well why I think people > need to get the message that we only use words as codes, not as meaning. > > We had for a long time waterway=canal and for the outline we used > water=riverbank (and we still mostly do use that combination). Perfectly > working, we did not care if we were mapping the bank of a river or the bank > of a canal. At some point someone came up with the idea that canal is not a > river hence a riverbank is not a canalbank and introduced water=canal for > the concept of the canalbank. > (I am a bit exaggerating here the reason for the change was different - > see the thread "[Tagging] Canal banks") > > My basic message is tags are made of key and value and everything is > codewords. We have build a whole structure into the codewords with several > levels of colons in order to make extracting things form the database > easier, but this is not part of the core structure of the database. > > There is no mismatch between natural=water and water=canal if you > understand that all keys and values are codewords. Human readability is a > convenience, but is not reflected in the data structure at all. > > > > On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 15:31, Jarek Piórkowski > wrote: > >> On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 09:12, Volker Schmidt wrote: >> > Il ven 24 gen 2020, 11:51 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < >> tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto: >> >> One of topics often appearing is mismatch between meaning of key >> >> and key text. >> >> ... >> >> It is created at >> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mismatching_key_names >> >> but page name is horrible. Ideas for a better one is welcome. >> >> >> >> Also, I only started it - help in expanding and improving it >> >> is highly welcomed. >> > >> > These are no mismatches. >> > Keys and values are in principle arbitrary sequences of alphanumeric >> characters. By convention we try to make them mnemonic by using strings >> that somehow help us remember the meaning of the string. By convention we >> use British English words for keys and values, plus numbers, mainly for >> values. >> > >> > This explanation needs to be placed prominently on the new page, to >> avoid any doubt. >> >> Please no. That wiki page is a much better explanation than this "it's >> only symbols". >> >> Keys and values are ways for us as human editors to communicate with >> each other. Those are commonly called "words" - well, at least in >> Canadian English, I don't know about British English. >> >> It is definitely worth explaining why some words as OSM editors use >> them are different from words as the rest of the world (or a subset of >> the world) might use them. >> >> --Jarek >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Evan Derickson derickso...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Page about mismatching key names (historic=wayside_shrine used for modern ones etc)
OK, my wording was intentionally provoking. But this basic conceptual issue is at the base of many unnecessary tagging modifications. I refrained from adding the OSM version of the duck principle. One of the items in the proposed page illustrates well why I think people need to get the message that we only use words as codes, not as meaning. We had for a long time waterway=canal and for the outline we used water=riverbank (and we still mostly do use that combination). Perfectly working, we did not care if we were mapping the bank of a river or the bank of a canal. At some point someone came up with the idea that canal is not a river hence a riverbank is not a canalbank and introduced water=canal for the concept of the canalbank. (I am a bit exaggerating here the reason for the change was different - see the thread "[Tagging] Canal banks") My basic message is tags are made of key and value and everything is codewords. We have build a whole structure into the codewords with several levels of colons in order to make extracting things form the database easier, but this is not part of the core structure of the database. There is no mismatch between natural=water and water=canal if you understand that all keys and values are codewords. Human readability is a convenience, but is not reflected in the data structure at all. On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 15:31, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 09:12, Volker Schmidt wrote: > > Il ven 24 gen 2020, 11:51 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto: > >> One of topics often appearing is mismatch between meaning of key > >> and key text. > >> ... > >> It is created at > >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mismatching_key_names > >> but page name is horrible. Ideas for a better one is welcome. > >> > >> Also, I only started it - help in expanding and improving it > >> is highly welcomed. > > > > These are no mismatches. > > Keys and values are in principle arbitrary sequences of alphanumeric > characters. By convention we try to make them mnemonic by using strings > that somehow help us remember the meaning of the string. By convention we > use British English words for keys and values, plus numbers, mainly for > values. > > > > This explanation needs to be placed prominently on the new page, to > avoid any doubt. > > Please no. That wiki page is a much better explanation than this "it's > only symbols". > > Keys and values are ways for us as human editors to communicate with > each other. Those are commonly called "words" - well, at least in > Canadian English, I don't know about British English. > > It is definitely worth explaining why some words as OSM editors use > them are different from words as the rest of the world (or a subset of > the world) might use them. > > --Jarek > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Page about mismatching key names (historic=wayside_shrine used for modern ones etc)
On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 at 09:12, Volker Schmidt wrote: > Il ven 24 gen 2020, 11:51 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging > ha scritto: >> One of topics often appearing is mismatch between meaning of key >> and key text. >> ... >> It is created at >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mismatching_key_names >> but page name is horrible. Ideas for a better one is welcome. >> >> Also, I only started it - help in expanding and improving it >> is highly welcomed. > > These are no mismatches. > Keys and values are in principle arbitrary sequences of alphanumeric > characters. By convention we try to make them mnemonic by using strings that > somehow help us remember the meaning of the string. By convention we use > British English words for keys and values, plus numbers, mainly for values. > > This explanation needs to be placed prominently on the new page, to avoid any > doubt. Please no. That wiki page is a much better explanation than this "it's only symbols". Keys and values are ways for us as human editors to communicate with each other. Those are commonly called "words" - well, at least in Canadian English, I don't know about British English. It is definitely worth explaining why some words as OSM editors use them are different from words as the rest of the world (or a subset of the world) might use them. --Jarek ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Page about mismatching key names (historic=wayside_shrine used for modern ones etc)
These are no mismatches. Keys and values are in principle arbitrary sequences of alphanumeric characters. By convention we try to make them mnemonic by using strings that somehow help us remember the meaning of the string. By convention we use British English words for keys and values, plus numbers, mainly for values. This explanation needs to be placed prominently on the new page, to avoid any doubt. Il ven 24 gen 2020, 11:51 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> ha scritto: > One of topics often appearing is mismatch between meaning of key > and key text. > > Especially among newbies interested in discussions. > > "why we use natural=water for man made canals?" > "why we tag man made beaches as natural=?" > "Lets migrate natural=water to landcover=water". > > So far I was basically ignoring this because it was not worth writing > a full explanation every single time. > > This page is intended as something that can be linked when > someone encounters such puzzling situation. > > Page that explains that > (1) yes, this is confusing > (2) why we ended in such situation > (3) what are ideas for resolving this and why they are still not done > > would be useful for linking in such cases > > It is created at > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mismatching_key_names > but page name is horrible. Ideas for a better one is welcome. > > Also, I only started it - help in expanding and improving it > is highly welcomed. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
