Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
2014-08-14 10:40 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, On 08/14/2014 08:09 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) amenity=ice_cream sounds very strange to me. I can't imagine a lot of people actually coming up with that themselves - can it be a mass edit or an editor preset gone wrong? I mean, the amenity consists not in there being ice cream, but there being a place where you can get ice cream. That would like tagging amenity=bed for a hotel or amenity=food for a restaurant... Not really. A gelateria is a very different thing from a bar, and it's not a shop that sells ice cream. At most you could use ice cream parlour, but amenity=ice_cream_parlour seems worse to me than the current tag. Ciao, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
I'm not sure what is a gelateria. Couldn't this be tagged simply with amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream ? 2014-08-18 8:23 GMT-03:00 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com: 2014-08-14 10:40 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, On 08/14/2014 08:09 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) amenity=ice_cream sounds very strange to me. I can't imagine a lot of people actually coming up with that themselves - can it be a mass edit or an editor preset gone wrong? I mean, the amenity consists not in there being ice cream, but there being a place where you can get ice cream. That would like tagging amenity=bed for a hotel or amenity=food for a restaurant... Not really. A gelateria is a very different thing from a bar, and it's not a shop that sells ice cream. At most you could use ice cream parlour, but amenity=ice_cream_parlour seems worse to me than the current tag. Ciao, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
2014-08-18 13:41 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I'm not sure what is a gelateria. Couldn't this be tagged simply with amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream ? Pretty much the same way as a pub could be tagged amenity=restaurant + cuisine=burgers + alcohol=yes. Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
cuisine = crisps in a pub :) The nearest in English for gelateria is ice cream parlour. Phil (trigpoint ) On Mon Aug 18 2014 14:00:07 GMT+0100 (BST), Simone Saviolo wrote: 2014-08-18 13:41 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I'm not sure what is a gelateria. Couldn't this be tagged simply with amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream ? Pretty much the same way as a pub could be tagged amenity=restaurant + cuisine=burgers + alcohol=yes. Regards, Simone -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
To summarize (for the second time): shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish shop=winery, shop=wine (shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker selling his own production) shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there is some shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) (there is a planned change in the opposite direction) There were no objections to following changes: shop=bags (201) - shop=bag (409, documented) shop=antique (110) - shop=antiques (1394, documented) shop=pets (162) - shop=pet (5393, documented) shop=pharmacy (1591) - amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented) shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) 2014-07-30 23:08 GMT+02:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 30.07.2014 20:42, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) Actually, we discussed a suggestion to change this in the other direction while this thread was running. Although it was in a separate thread, I think that discussion counts as an objection. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Hi, On 08/14/2014 08:09 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) amenity=ice_cream sounds very strange to me. I can't imagine a lot of people actually coming up with that themselves - can it be a mass edit or an editor preset gone wrong? I mean, the amenity consists not in there being ice cream, but there being a place where you can get ice cream. That would like tagging amenity=bed for a hotel or amenity=food for a restaurant... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 2014-08-01 at 00:05:38 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: how do you tag an italian pasticceria? (of the kind that also serves coffee and read-to-eat pastry, not the laboratori di pasticceria where you buy things to bring home / elsewhere. I don't recall, haven't seen many of them, I guess amenity=cafe would be it, or sometimes they're a bar as well? I don't think they sell alcoiholic drinks, so yes, amenity=cafe sounds more appropriate, but then aren't gelaterie close to this concept (except with gelato instead of pastry) -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: I think you shouldn't merge the *=ice_cream variantes. People never reached a consensus over which one to use (personally I think it's compelling to use shop=* instead of amenity=*), and there is another variant, which is amenity=cafe/fast_food/restaurant with cuisine=ice_cream, and is used even more than amenity=ice_cream. A problem with ice_cream is there's no way to add it to a different shop. A gift shop with an ice cream counter, for example. shop=ice_cream and amenity=ice_cream both are all out tags, suitable only for a dedicated ice cream shop. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) shop=ice_cream you can only buy ice cream (no seats) Wouldn't it be much better to have explicit tags for those things, such as: shop:seats=yes/no shop:waiter/service=yes/no ...Or something along those lines rather than the black magic you outlined above ;-). -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 31/lug/2014 um 09:21 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: A problem with ice_cream is there's no way to add it to a different shop. sells:ice_cream=industrial/artisanal/yes cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 31/lug/2014 um 10:38 schrieb Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi: shop:seats=yes/no shop:waiter/service=yes/no ...Or something along those lines rather than the black magic you outlined above ;-). If I understand you correctly you propose to deprecate amenity=pub in favor of shop=alcohol shop:seats=yes shop:waiter=yes ? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 31/lug/2014 um 10:38 schrieb Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi: shop:seats=yes/no shop:waiter/service=yes/no ...Or something along those lines rather than the black magic you outlined above ;-). If I understand you correctly you propose to deprecate amenity=pub in favor of shop=alcohol shop:seats=yes shop:waiter=yes ? I can see your point in that particular case, however, I still think that saying or specifying amenity=ice_cream to imply shop:seats=yes is like I put it, black magic. Probably simply because of difference in the meaning of those two words but I'm not a native so it'd probably be better for me to just keep quiet in this kind of nuance of word type discussions :-). -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
I think a place should be tagged amenity=fast_food depending on the structure of the place. From the description on the wiki page: Is for a place concentrating on very fast counter-only service and take-away food. It might have tables for seating. Someone on the Talk page suggested used the undocumented key seating=* to indicate whether there are seats available, which seems to have a good number of uses. We could start a separate thread if needed, but personally I don't think this needs to be solved right now. I documented the current state of affairs in the wiki[1], so we don't have to rediscuss everything later. [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dice_creamdiff=1068150oldid=969545 2014-07-30 21:50 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 31/lug/2014 um 02:13 schrieb John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: As far as I can see, you could easily use amenity=fast_food with cuisine=ice_cream instead of amenity=ice_cream or shop=ice_cream I believe we are talking about different places. FWIW, I am Not proposing to retag or warn from fast food with cuisine=ice_cream cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 31.07.2014 01:45, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: Am 30/lug/2014 um 20:42 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) yes there were, this should be BE spelling shop=bags (201) - shop=bag (409, documented) shop=antique (110) - shop=antiques (1394, documented) shop=pets (162) - shop=pet (5393, documented) wouldn't it be nice to have either all singular or all plural? +1 shop=pharmacy (1591) - amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented) I don't know shop=pharmacy but Id have a look and ask a few of the mappers Yes, there is some confusion between chemist, drugstore and pharmacy. shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with only a barkeeper and the other with service ? shop=ice_cream you can only buy ice cream (no seats) Still do not like amenity=ice_cream but this discussion is quite old and long. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
We also already have a drink: key and I wanted a food: key anyway for vending machines. Might also be an option. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drink https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Vending-Drinks%26Food A problem with ice_cream is there's no way to add it to a different shop. sells:ice_cream=industrial/artisanal/yes __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with only a barkeeper and the other with service ? bars are another topic ;-) A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked stuff for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer some sandwich or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing you can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some also sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and allow you to pay your home bills like electricity and water). They hardly ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco. The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above (tickets etc.). Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but in Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional, artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria, de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e. country specific specialty) ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 31.07.2014 15:47, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com: I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with only a barkeeper and the other with service ? bars are another topic ;-) A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked stuff for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer some sandwich or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing you can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some also sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and allow you to pay your home bills like electricity and water). They hardly ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco. The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above (tickets etc.). Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but in Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional, artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria, de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e. country specific specialty) ;-) I know Italy quite well, that is why I did ask about bars. Living in an area of Germany with some Italian life-style I find all the different ice-cream selling amenities like in Italy, and you are wrong in your view about Germany. It used to be also an additional product of pasticcerie here, too. At least, that is what my grandmother, daughter of a baker/pastreur. I prefer to have some extra tags than four or five different variants to tag the same feature with little nuances in meaning. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 2014-07-31 at 15:47:39 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: bars are another topic ;-) and a confusing one :) The only thing you can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. that's basically it, with the caveat that sometimes the croissant can be very substandard, but most bars also sell something else (different from each other) Some also sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and allow you to pay your home bills like electricity and water). They hardly ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco. to add to the confusion: in lombardy public transport tickets are notusually sold by bars, but by newsagents, which also sell some kind of lottery tickets (gratta e vinci), but not big lotteries nor stamps or tobacco. The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above (tickets etc.). Mostly the second one: most of the bars I know don't ask for payment in advance, unless they are in an area with lots of customers (e.g. near a biggish railway station). Restaurants are specialized on food for main means, however, while bars are much more varied in their services. Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but in Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional, artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria, de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e. country specific specialty) ;-) how do you tag an italian pasticceria? (of the kind that also serves coffee and read-to-eat pastry, not the laboratori di pasticceria where you buy things to bring home / elsewhere. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
For what it's worth, in the United States the terms bar, tavern, lounge, and pub are used almost interchangeably. Some imply table service and general food more than others, but there is no hard rule, and the situation is further complicated by, for example, bar and grill having a much different implication than just bar in that regard, and even brewpub vs pub. I suspect that this is going to vary far too much by culture to get acceptable results out of simply tagging as bar vs pub or whatever might be proposed. The Italian bar sounds far more like a corner store to me! --- Jesse B. Crawford Student, Information Technology New Mexico Inst. of Mining Tech https://jbcrawford.us || je...@jbcrawford.us https://cs.nmt.edu/~jcrawford || jcrawf...@cs.nmt.edu On 2014-07-31 07:47 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with only a barkeeper and the other with service ? bars are another topic ;-) A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked stuff for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer some sandwich or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing you can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some also sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and allow you to pay your home bills like electricity and water). They hardly ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco. The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above (tickets etc.). Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but in Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional, artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria, de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e. country specific specialty) ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 31/lug/2014, at 16:58, Elena ``of Valhalla'' elena.valha...@gmail.com wrote: how do you tag an italian pasticceria? (of the kind that also serves coffee and read-to-eat pastry, not the laboratori di pasticceria where you buy things to bring home / elsewhere. I don't recall, haven't seen many of them, I guess amenity=cafe would be it, or sometimes they're a bar as well? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 31/lug/2014, at 17:22, Jesse B. Crawford je...@jbcrawford.us wrote: I suspect that this is going to vary far too much by culture to get acceptable results out of simply tagging as bar vs pub or whatever might be proposed. Yes, getting the fine differences (sometimes it might be just style) into tags seems impossible. Another idea is to put the original words (in local language) into a multivalue tag: restaurant:type:it (but I used it also for bars and others): http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait cheers, Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Quite a few bars in the USA don't sell breakfast. Local laws control when they can be open, which varies from place to place. On July 31, 2014 8:47:39 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-07-31 15:27 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) Do you make any differences on bars in Italy, too ? I mean the one with only a barkeeper and the other with service ? bars are another topic ;-) A bar can be almost everything, some are offering long lists of cooked stuff for lunch (1st and second course, dessert), others only offer some sandwich or even only fried potatoe chips and peanuts. The only thing you can be quite sure is that they all offer croissant for breakfast, and espresso / capuccino / caffè latte, soft drinks and alcoholics. Some also sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets and tobacco (and allow you to pay your home bills like electricity and water). They hardly ever sell newspapers, and the newsagents won't typically sell lottery tickets, stamps, public transport tickets or tobacco. The main difference between a restaurant and a bar is that in the bar you'll pay typically in advance (for whatever), while there might be service to bring your food (especially if you have to wait). Also restaurants won't offer any of the additional services described above (tickets etc.). Actually I have never tagged amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream in Italy (but in Germany I did), because the typology here is different. (traditional, artisanal) ice cream is seen as a subproduct of pastry (pasticceria, de:Konditorei) and being relatively cheap (you can get a nice serving for 1,50EUR) people eat it a lot on the go (after lunch/dinner), while in Germany it is mostly seen as something either industrial or Italian (i.e. country specific specialty) ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
To summarize: shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish shop=winery, shop=wine (shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker selling his own production) shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there is some There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) shop=bags (201) - shop=bag (409, documented) shop=antique (110) - shop=antiques (1394, documented) shop=pets (162) - shop=pet (5393, documented) shop=pharmacy (1591) - amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented) shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) 2014-07-19 0:42 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: Am 7/16/14 23:32 , schrieb Bryan Housel: Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery … but winery tagging is fragmented. It was probably created before the craft key got much usage. I think there should be shop=wine and craft=winery. If you have a winery that sells wine then that should just be an additional key indicating that (Is there actually a global key for that? Seems somthing that you could apply for a lot of different POIs) __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 30 July 2014 19:42, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish shop=winery, shop=wine (shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker selling his own production) shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there is some To be more precise, there is no consensus that they are synonyms. There might still be a strong majority that considers them synonyms (we don't know), but rightfully you focus on the tags for which there is consensus for now. There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) shop=bags (201) - shop=bag (409, documented) shop=antique (110) - shop=antiques (1394, documented) shop=pets (162) - shop=pet (5393, documented) shop=pharmacy (1591) - amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented) shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) Are you planning to make these changes yourself? Here you can find how I did the shop=musical_instruments to shop=musical_instrument change. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 30 July 2014 22:01, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Are you planning to make these changes yourself? Here you can find how I did the shop=musical_instruments to shop=musical_instrument change. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument Sorry, now I see that you are proposing a JOSM validator rule, not a mechanical edit. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
I think you shouldn't merge the *=ice_cream variantes. People never reached a consensus over which one to use (personally I think it's compelling to use shop=* instead of amenity=*), and there is another variant, which is amenity=cafe/fast_food/restaurant with cuisine=ice_cream, and is used even more than amenity=ice_cream. 2014-07-30 15:42 GMT-03:00 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: To summarize: shop=fish, shop=fishmonger and shop=seafood are not synonyms as fish may also apply to pet fish and seafood is not covering freshwater fish shop=winery, shop=wine (shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker selling his own production) shop=delicatessen, shop=deli I am not understanding difference but there is some There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) shop=bags (201) - shop=bag (409, documented) shop=antique (110) - shop=antiques (1394, documented) shop=pets (162) - shop=pet (5393, documented) shop=pharmacy (1591) - amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented) shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) 2014-07-19 0:42 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: Am 7/16/14 23:32 , schrieb Bryan Housel: Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery … but winery tagging is fragmented. It was probably created before the craft key got much usage. I think there should be shop=wine and craft=winery. If you have a winery that sells wine then that should just be an additional key indicating that (Is there actually a global key for that? Seems somthing that you could apply for a lot of different POIs) __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 30.07.2014 20:42, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) Actually, we discussed a suggestion to change this in the other direction while this thread was running. Although it was in a separate thread, I think that discussion counts as an objection. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 30/lug/2014 um 20:42 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) yes there were, this should be BE spelling shop=bags (201) - shop=bag (409, documented) shop=antique (110) - shop=antiques (1394, documented) shop=pets (162) - shop=pet (5393, documented) wouldn't it be nice to have either all singular or all plural? shop=pharmacy (1591) - amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented) I don't know shop=pharmacy but Id have a look and ask a few of the mappers shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) shop=ice_cream you can only buy ice cream (no seats) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) shop=ice_cream you can only buy ice cream (no seats) This seems a little inconsistent. As far as I can see, you could easily use amenity=fast_food with cuisine=ice_cream instead of amenity=ice_cream or shop=ice_cream (in the cases mentioned). Whether the place have seating or not could be tagged separetely. 2014-07-30 20:45 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 30/lug/2014 um 20:42 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com : There were no objections to following changes: shop=jewellery (139) - shop=jewelry (13299, documented) yes there were, this should be BE spelling shop=bags (201) - shop=bag (409, documented) shop=antique (110) - shop=antiques (1394, documented) shop=pets (162) - shop=pet (5393, documented) wouldn't it be nice to have either all singular or all plural? shop=pharmacy (1591) - amenity=pharmacy (115759, documented) I don't know shop=pharmacy but Id have a look and ask a few of the mappers shop=ice_cream (710, documented but difference between using amenity and shop keys is not documented) - amenity=ice_cream (4053) I use them like this amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream there is a waiter / service amenity=ice_cream they sell take away ice cream, but also have at least some tables to sit down (no service) shop=ice_cream you can only buy ice cream (no seats) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 31/lug/2014 um 02:13 schrieb John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: As far as I can see, you could easily use amenity=fast_food with cuisine=ice_cream instead of amenity=ice_cream or shop=ice_cream I believe we are talking about different places. FWIW, I am Not proposing to retag or warn from fast food with cuisine=ice_cream cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 7/16/14 23:32 , schrieb Bryan Housel: Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery … but winery tagging is fragmented. It was probably created before the craft key got much usage. I think there should be shop=wine and craft=winery. If you have a winery that sells wine then that should just be an additional key indicating that (Is there actually a global key for that? Seems somthing that you could apply for a lot of different POIs) __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 16/lug/2014 um 21:11 schrieb Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: Please do not mass modify tags of objects, especially those where the locals have told you that they're meaningful. +1, for all cases where the modification goes beyond a simple typo. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 4:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: also shop=fish might be used for pets (fish only)? I wouldn't think so, but that's just me. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Please do not mass modify tags of objects, especially those where the locals have told you that they're meaningful. I prefer to avoid step with irritated locals, that is why I am asking here before doing anything. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On Thu, 2014-07-10 at 06:11 -0400, Serge Wroclawski wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 5:00 AM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: There are some values of shop key that seem to be synonymous with other tags and I want to confirm whatever it is true. Unless mentioned otherwise all mentioned tags are values of key shop, numeric values is occurrence count according to taginfo. Before - are values that IMHO should be replaced by value after -. fish (368 and documented as replaced by seafood), fishmonger (2106 and documented as replaced by seafood) - seafood (2110) delicatessen (108) - deli (4101, documented) A deli and a delicatessen are not the same thing. I'd say a delicatessen is a cuisine of restaurant, and a deli is a type of shop. In British English, delicatessen and deli are the same thing. Certainly not a cuisine, I would not associate it with a restaurant. A delicatessen, or deli, is either a shop (or a counter in supermarket) selling cooked meats, cheeses, and other foods such as olives, pates. Deli is a shortened version of delicatessen. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 16/07/2014 20:11, Serge Wroclawski wrote: there are no delicatessens in the UK. http://www.yell.com/ucs/UcsSearchAction.do?keywords=delicatessenlocation=united+kingdom -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Perfect, so now we have a reason to keep both tags! - Serge On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 16/07/2014 20:11, Serge Wroclawski wrote: there are no delicatessens in the UK. http://www.yell.com/ucs/UcsSearchAction.do?keywords=delicatessenlocation=united+kingdom -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
winery / wine Winery: A winery is a building or property that produces wine, or a business involved in the production of wine, such as a wine company. Some wine companies own many wineries. (wikipedia) so... shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker selling his own production... -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Oh yeah this comes up sometimes. IMO a wine shop and a winery are not the same thing. The former is something they have at the train station to help with the evening commute, and the latter is the sort of thing people plan their vacations around. Oddly we have the mostly standard `craft=brewery`: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbrewery … but winery tagging is fragmented. You can read this if you want: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Winery On Jul 16, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote: winery / wine Winery: A winery is a building or property that produces wine, or a business involved in the production of wine, such as a wine company. Some wine companies own many wineries. (wikipedia) so... shop=wine is a wine seller, where shop=winery is a winer maker selling his own production... -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:00 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: In cases of confirmed synonymity I will create feature request on JOSM bugtracker to add conversion rules into validator (currently no values from this list are handled). ___ I'd be careful with fishmonger vs seafood (is the latter OK for someone who only sells fresh water fish?) and amenity ice_cream vs shop=ice_cream vs cuisine ice cream (take away only shop vs place to sit and eat, table service etc) To confirm synonymity you'd have to ask every single contributor ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:19 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: I'd be careful with fishmonger vs seafood (is the latter OK for someone who only sells fresh water fish?) also shop=fish might be used for pets (fish only)? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Thanks for your work Mateusz! 2014-07-10 10:21 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:19 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: I'd be careful with fishmonger vs seafood (is the latter OK for someone who only sells fresh water fish?) also shop=fish might be used for pets (fish only)? That is the only issue that makes me nervous about the suggested josm-rules; shop=fish might indicate a pet shop in some cases. Although since the rules are for josm validation so will be checked by a human, I guess that's low-risk right? Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Although since the rules are for josm validation so will be checked by a human, I guess that's low-risk right? I thought about JOSM validator rule with fix button, so it would not be safe to assume that it will be carefully checked (the same type of rule as [natural=marsh] to [natural=wetland, wetland=marsh]). But tricky ones can be just reported with explanation that true type of shop should be verified (shop=fish is ambiguous, it should be changed to either [shop=seafood] or [shop=pet, pet=fish]). According to Wikipedia In North America, although not generally in the United Kingdom, the term seafood is extended to fresh water organisms eaten by humans, so all edible aquatic life may be referred to as seafood.. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 5:00 AM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: There are some values of shop key that seem to be synonymous with other tags and I want to confirm whatever it is true. Unless mentioned otherwise all mentioned tags are values of key shop, numeric values is occurrence count according to taginfo. Before - are values that IMHO should be replaced by value after -. fish (368 and documented as replaced by seafood), fishmonger (2106 and documented as replaced by seafood) - seafood (2110) delicatessen (108) - deli (4101, documented) A deli and a delicatessen are not the same thing. I'd say a delicatessen is a cuisine of restaurant, and a deli is a type of shop. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
Am 10/lug/2014 um 11:50 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: According to Wikipedia In North America, although not generally in the United Kingdom, the term seafood is extended to fresh water organisms eaten by humans, so all edible aquatic life may be referred to as seafood.. we are using British English in tagging cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
A deli and a delicatessen are not the same thing. I'd say a delicatessen is a cuisine of restaurant, and a deli is a type of shop. Is it really applying to objects with shop=delicatessen? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Synonymous values in the shop key
On 10/07/2014 10:50, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: According to Wikipedia In North America, although not generally in the United Kingdom, the term seafood is extended to fresh water organisms eaten by humans, so all edible aquatic life may be referred to as seafood.. We really, really, can't rely on wikipedia as a guide to English usage, especially not British English usage. I'd definitely have different expectations of a shop=seafood and shop=fish. Some however (bags vs bag) are I suspect far more straightforward - although someone may come forward and explain the difference to someone as ignorant about bags as I... Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
