Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2019, at 14:09, Florimond Berthoux  
> wrote:
> 
> Well, I don’t know what the french law say, but that’s not an issue,
> we don’t tag the law ;)
> I’m really here just to know the english word.
> In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
> cargo_bike if none disapprove.


I would be interested in the implications, if there is cargo_bicycle=yes, does 
it imply I can go there with a regular bicycle as well? In case it is 
bicycle=yes, is it valid for cargo bicycles as well? And the same for no-cases. 
If there is no legal definition that distinguishes cargo bicycles from other 
bicycles, who decides what a cargo bicycle is?
Or is it maybe a question of courtesy not to park a regular bike on a cargo 
bike stall? In this case it wouldn’t be an access tag IMHO.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-21 Thread Volker Schmidt 
Please keep in mind that in the EU the border between bicycle and (small)
motorcycle is between Pedelec (a bicycle) and S-Pedelec (a small
motorcycle). And cargo-bikes come in both flavours here.
As said before, access tags in Osm are describing the legal access
situation. BUT I'm pointing this out without having an idea how to solve
the issue.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 11:24 Mateusz Konieczny, 
wrote:

>
>
> 20 Dec 2019, 14:07 by florimond.berth...@gmail.com:
>
> Well, I don’t know what the french law say, but that’s not an issue,
> we don’t tag the law ;)
> I’m really here just to know the english word.
> In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
> cargo_bike if none disapprove
>
> cargo_bicycle seems clearly better for
> consistency and clear differentiation from
> motorcycles.
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-21 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 


20 Dec 2019, 14:07 by florimond.berth...@gmail.com:

> Well, I don’t know what the french law say, but that’s not an issue,
> we don’t tag the law ;)
> I’m really here just to know the english word.
> In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
> cargo_bike if none disapprove
>
cargo_bicycle seems clearly better for
consistency and clear differentiation from
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-21 Thread Jan Michel 

I agree that "cargo_bike" is a nice word for this kind of vehicle.
However, I would like to point out that the term 'bike' is not very
common in OSM, mostly due to the ambiguity between 'bicycle' and
'motorcycle'. To prevent this, we should think about building a tag
around the terms bicycle and cargo, e.g. cargo_bicycle, or
bicycle:cargo.

On 21.12.19 01:30, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

+1 for "cargo_bike", including cargo tricycles and pedalled electric
bicycles and trikes.



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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg 
+1 for "cargo_bike", including cargo tricycles and pedalled electric
bicycles and trikes.

On 12/20/19, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Florimond Berthoux wrote:
>> I’m really here just to know the english word.
>> In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
>> cargo_bike if none disapprove.
>
> It's definitely a cargo bike in British English too.
>
> Richard
> (owner of a Circe Morpheus, which is a cargo bike of sorts:
> https://www.circecycles.com/products/solutions/cargo/ )
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Tagging-f5258744.html
>
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Richard Fairhurst 
Florimond Berthoux wrote:
> I’m really here just to know the english word.
> In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
> cargo_bike if none disapprove.

It's definitely a cargo bike in British English too.

Richard
(owner of a Circe Morpheus, which is a cargo bike of sorts:
https://www.circecycles.com/products/solutions/cargo/ )



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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Florimond Berthoux 
Well, I don’t know what the french law say, but that’s not an issue,
we don’t tag the law ;)
I’m really here just to know the english word.
In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
cargo_bike if none disapprove.

Le ven. 20 déc. 2019 à 10:42, Martin Koppenhoefer
 a écrit :
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 20. Dec 2019, at 09:42, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> Just for information the size limits for bicycles in Italy (from Polizia di 
> Stato):
>
>
>
> in other words the Italian law doesn’t distinguish between cargo bikes and 
> other bikes. What about France?
>
> Cheers Martin
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-- 
Florimond Berthoux

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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Volker Schmidt 
> in other words the Italian law doesn’t distinguish between cargo bikes and
> other bikes.
>
Looks like it.

But: most cargo bikes are not "bicycles" or "pedelecs"  because they have
more powerful motors - they fall into the S-pedelec class of vehicles, with
number plates, insurance ecc. I presume they fall into this class:

" a) i *quadricicli leggeri*, la cui massa a vuoto è inferiore o pari a 350
kg (categoria L6e), esclusa la massa delle batterie per i veicoli
elettrici, la cui velocità massima per costruzione è inferiore o uguale a
45 km/h e
1) la cui cilindrata del motore è inferiore o pari a 50 cm3 per i motori ad
accensione comandata; o
2) la cui potenza massima netta è inferiore o uguale a 4 kW per gli altri
motori a combustione interna; o
3) la cui potenza nominale continua massima è inferiore o uguale a 4 kW per
i motori elettrici. Tali veicoli sono conformi alle prescrizioni tecniche
applicabili ai ciclomotori a tre ruote della categoria L2e salvo altrimenti
disposto da una direttiva CE particolare."

and with these dimension limits:
Le dimensioni massime autorizzate dei veicoli a motore a due o tre ruote
sono le seguenti:
- lunghezza: 4,00 m;
- larghezza: 1,00 m per i ciclomotori a due ruote;
- larghezza: 2,00 m per gli altri veicoli;
- altezza: 2,50 m.

(source: ACI

)

Volker
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2019, at 09:42, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> Just for information the size limits for bicycles in Italy (from Polizia di 
> Stato):


in other words the Italian law doesn’t distinguish between cargo bikes and 
other bikes. What about France?

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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Volker Schmidt 
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 22:44, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> what’s the legal definition for this kind of bicycle in France? Are there
> minimum/maximum dimensions? Number of wheels?
>

Just for information the size limits for bicycles in Italy (from Polizia di
Stato

):
" Il codice li chiama "velocipedi" e li definisce come veicoli a 2 o più
ruote mosse dalla propulsione muscolare umana attraverso pedali o analoghi
dispositivi."
("The highway code calls them" velocipedi "and defines them as vehicles
with 2 or more wheels moved by human muscle propulsion through pedals or
similar devices.")

"Chi li costruisce, ma anche chi li utilizza sulla strada, deve rispettare
precise disposizioni per quanto riguarda le loro dimensioni massime: 1,30 m
di larghezza, 3 m di lunghezza, 2,20 m di altezza"
("Who builds them, but also who uses them on the road, must respect precise
dispositions regarding their maximum dimensions: 1,30m of width, 3m of
length, 2,20m of height")

And for completeness:
" A tutti i tipi di velocipedi possono essere agganciati rimorchi costruiti
appositamente per tali veicoli, a condizione che: la lunghezza del
velocipede e del rimorchio non superi 3 m; la larghezza massima totale del
rimorchio non sia superiore a 75 cm; l'altezza massima, compreso il carico,
non sia superiore a 1 m; la massa trasportabile, non sia superiore a 50 kg.
Su questi rimorchi è consentito anche il trasporto di bambini, nei limiti
sopraindicati."
("All types of cycles can be equipped with trailers specifically built for
these vehicles, provided that: the length of the velocipede and of the
trailer does not exceed 3 m, the maximum total width of the trailer is not
more than 75 cm, the maximum height; including the load, it should not
exceed 1 m, the transportable mass should not exceed 50 kg.On these
trailers children may also be transported within the limits indicated
above")
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2019, at 21:23, Florimond Berthoux  
> wrote:
> 
> It's to tag the access to this new kind of bicycle parking designed
> for cargo bikes in Paris
> https://framapic.org/w4zmjIvtoxim/1qsfbMKa1iVI.jpg
> I'd like to have the word for all the kinds of those bicycle type not
> just a part of them.


what’s the legal definition for this kind of bicycle in France? Are there 
minimum/maximum dimensions? Number of wheels? 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-19 Thread Volker Schmidt 
We have a somewhat related problem her in Italy. Cycleways and in
particular foot-cycleways are full of chicane-type of bicycle barriers,
where a normal bicycle passes, maybe with the cyclist putting the feet on
the ground, but tandems, cargo-bikes or bikes with baggage trailers (very
popular with foreign cycle tourists) don't pass.
Yours would be a (legal) vehicle type access tag. "Mine" would be an access
tag based on physical dimensions with the added drawback that it is a wooly
definition, as the mentioned types of bikes come in different sizes.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 22:00, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> In the USA we call them “cargo bikes”. This would translate bakfiets in
> the Netherlanders Which have a bucket up front, as well as “long-tail”
> cargo bikes which carry the kids or stuff behind the rider, and cargo
> trikes too.
>
> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a25054215/best-cargo-bikes/
>
> -Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:23 AM Florimond Berthoux <
> florimond.berth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> What's the english word for this kind of bicycle
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freight_bicycle ?
>> It's to tag the access to this new kind of bicycle parking designed
>> for cargo bikes in Paris
>> https://framapic.org/w4zmjIvtoxim/1qsfbMKa1iVI.jpg
>> I'd like to have the word for all the kinds of those bicycle type not
>> just a part of them.
>> Taginfo doesn't help me here.
>>
>> Tags would be :
>> amenity=bicycle_parking
>> [english for freight bicycle]=designated
>>
>> The access key could be use also for other features like ramp,
>> barrier, elevator...
>>
>> --
>> Florimond Berthoux
>>
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-19 Thread Joseph Eisenberg 
In the USA we call them “cargo bikes”. This would translate bakfiets in the
Netherlanders Which have a bucket up front, as well as “long-tail” cargo
bikes which carry the kids or stuff behind the rider, and cargo trikes too.

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a25054215/best-cargo-bikes/

-Joseph Eisenberg

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:23 AM Florimond Berthoux <
florimond.berth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> What's the english word for this kind of bicycle
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freight_bicycle ?
> It's to tag the access to this new kind of bicycle parking designed
> for cargo bikes in Paris
> https://framapic.org/w4zmjIvtoxim/1qsfbMKa1iVI.jpg
> I'd like to have the word for all the kinds of those bicycle type not
> just a part of them.
> Taginfo doesn't help me here.
>
> Tags would be :
> amenity=bicycle_parking
> [english for freight bicycle]=designated
>
> The access key could be use also for other features like ramp,
> barrier, elevator...
>
> --
> Florimond Berthoux
>
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