Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Steve Doerr]

On 21/08/2018 23:57, Jo wrote:

Vehículos de Turismo con Conductor



Thanks, Jo.

--

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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Philip Barnes]

The legal term in British English is Private Hire. Not sure why London has 
invented its own term but London is like that. 

I am not aware of any specific tagging as in highway terms they are legally the 
same as any other private motor vehicle. Fares must be pre-booked and they have 
no special privileges such as being able to use bus lanes. They are not psv 
(public service vehicles). 

Taxis, Hackney Carriages to use the legal term, are psv. They can pick up 
anywhere, use taxi ranks and use bus lanes.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 22 August 2018 05:24:45 BST, "Ture Pålsson"  wrote:
>(Replying to the thread in general, not to any particular message)
>
>The concept of a VTC in e.g. Spain and France seems similar to what
>londoners call a ”minicab". Are there any existing tagging practices
>for those?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Warin]

One further tag that should be of use ?
description=VTC only

That should be helpful.


On 22/08/18 09:05, Warin wrote:

OK, so this is an access restriction - e.g.
access=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, 
say private_hire_vehicle?)


If pedestrians are still allowed to use it then
motor_vehicle=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, 
say private_hire_vehicle?)


and so on for other access restrictions.

On 21/08/18 23:05, yo paseopor wrote:
Yes , it is restricted to these vehicles. In the ground and in the 
traffic signs you can read VTC (Uber, Cabify). I said I don't want 
discussion about what is a VTC really and if should they exist. I 
only want to know how to map it, because in the Barcelona's harbour 
there are spots specifically tagged with VTC road marks, and I think 
they are not PSV vehicles so... what is it? How to map it? Also, in 
Madrid there is a lot of shared cars. How to map it? OSM's Wiki is so 
weak in these two terms.


Thanks
Salut i places d'aparcament
yopaseopor

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y. mailto:josem...@gmail.com>> wrote:


VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in
Spain. I think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the
Spanish name for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide
private transport services but are not taxis (their cars are
not equipped with taxi meter).



rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis
in some jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably
many more, e.g. France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in
Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy they are called NCC and you
need a license, are not allowed to pick up customers nor to park
your vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says they are a
kind of public transport without routes, the German WP says they
aren’t (in Germany). Uber (and others) don’t qualify because
they don’t meet the requirements (their drivers don’t generally
have a P-license in Germany, needed for the transport of people,
they don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and they
don’t adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of
transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending the
service is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers
(commercialization of the sharing economy).

If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that
provide a kind of service like these, we should craft the
definitions carefully and see what we need to require in order
to be able to identify and distinguish the different classes
that we want.


Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".

What is being mapped?
Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they
parked? Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
Or an office where these vehicles are managed?


--
In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire
licence" for Uber.

 Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they
call them? Arrr minicabs.
The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does
the UK map minicabs?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184


It is a can of worms.

.

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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Ture Pålsson]

(Replying to the thread in general, not to any particular message)

The concept of a VTC in e.g. Spain and France seems similar to what londoners 
call a ”minicab". Are there any existing tagging practices for those?


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Warin]

OK, so this is an access restriction - e.g.
access=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, say 
private_hire_vehicle?)


If pedestrians are still allowed to use it then
motor_vehicle=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, say 
private_hire_vehicle?)


and so on for other access restrictions.

On 21/08/18 23:05, yo paseopor wrote:
Yes , it is restricted to these vehicles. In the ground and in the 
traffic signs you can read VTC (Uber, Cabify). I said I don't want 
discussion about what is a VTC really and if should they exist. I only 
want to know how to map it, because in the Barcelona's harbour there 
are spots specifically tagged with VTC road marks, and I think they 
are not PSV vehicles so... what is it? How to map it? Also, in Madrid 
there is a lot of shared cars. How to map it? OSM's Wiki is so weak in 
these two terms.


Thanks
Salut i places d'aparcament
yopaseopor

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y. mailto:josem...@gmail.com>> wrote:


VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in
Spain. I think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the
Spanish name for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide
private transport services but are not taxis (their cars are not
equipped with taxi meter).



rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis
in some jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably
many more, e.g. France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in
Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy they are called NCC and you need
a license, are not allowed to pick up customers nor to park your
vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says they are a kind of
public transport without routes, the German WP says they aren’t
(in Germany). Uber (and others) don’t qualify because they don’t
meet the requirements (their drivers don’t generally have a
P-license in Germany, needed for the transport of people, they
don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and they don’t
adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of
transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending the
service is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers
(commercialization of the sharing economy).

If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that
provide a kind of service like these, we should craft the
definitions carefully and see what we need to require in order to
be able to identify and distinguish the different classes that we
want.


Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".

What is being mapped?
Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they
parked? Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
Or an office where these vehicles are managed?


--
In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire
licence" for Uber.

 Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they call
them? Arrr minicabs.
The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does
the UK map minicabs?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184


It is a can of worms.

.

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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Jo]

Vehículos de Turismo con Conductor

Op wo 22 aug. 2018 om 00:49 schreef Steve Doerr :

> On 21/08/2018 09:55, José G Moya Y. wrote:
> > VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I
> > think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name
> > for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport
> > services but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).
> >
>
> But surely it stands for something? A word beginning with V, a word
> beginning with T, and a word beginning with C? What are those words?
>
>
> --
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Steve Doerr]

On 21/08/2018 09:55, José G Moya Y. wrote:
VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I 
think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name 
for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport 
services but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).




But surely it stands for something? A word beginning with V, a word 
beginning with T, and a word beginning with C? What are those words?



--

Steve


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Aug 2018, at 17:57, yo paseopor  wrote:
> 
> prsv (private service vehicle) =designated ?


can you explain who can use the parking and who can not?

For the key I would suggest not to use an abbreviation. Private service vehicle 
doesn’t sound very comprehensive, if you could specify the kind of service it 
would be better.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[yo paseopor]

>
> i.e. they are similar to traditional rental vehicles with drivers, while
> other concepts were more aiming at circumventing regulation (which seems
> was ultimately not succesful, in the EU there was a decision to regard them
> as transport company and not as IT service company, as they had argued, and
> many countries have banned their business either as a whole, or significant
> parts of it).


Ok but that is not the object of that discussion . I have some official
spots for them in the Barcelona's Harbour (and I'm sure if I search in
other transportation important places I will find more. How can I map it?
Should I have to make a subtag like .e.g. :

prsv (private service vehicle) =designated ?

Thanks
yopaseopor




On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> 2018-08-21 14:29 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>
>> If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide
>> a kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and
>> see what we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish
>> the different classes that we want.
>>
>>
>> Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".
>>
>> What is being mapped?
>> Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked?
>> Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
>> Or an office where these vehicles are managed?
>>
>
>
>
> question was for a place with reserved parking, my question was about the
> "these vehicles" part: _which_ vehicles, because as I tried to explain in
> my mail, not all vehicle rental with drivers are the same class (what we
> want vs. "what exists": classes do not exist without someone creating it,
> it is us who decide what kind of class according to what kind of criteria
> we create - for mapping in osm). Example: it could be sufficient to have
> just one tag (or "class") for all kinds of vehicles (likely not for most of
> the OSM mappers though).
>
> Already looking at Uber alone, it is clear they have quite different
> divisions which offer different services which will likely fall into
> different classes, e.g. Uberpop, UberBlack, Uber-Lux, Uber-SUV, Uber-X,
> Uber-XL, UberSelect and Uber-Van. AFAIK Uber-X and UberBlack drivers are
> required to hold a transportation license, i.e. they are similar to
> traditional rental vehicles with drivers, while other concepts were more
> aiming at circumventing regulation (which seems was ultimately not
> succesful, in the EU there was a decision to reagrd them as transport
> company and not as IT service company, as they had argued, and many
> countries have banned their business either as a whole, or significant
> parts of it).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-08-21 14:29 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide a
> kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and
> see what we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish
> the different classes that we want.
>
>
> Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".
>
> What is being mapped?
> Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked?
> Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
> Or an office where these vehicles are managed?
>



question was for a place with reserved parking, my question was about the
"these vehicles" part: _which_ vehicles, because as I tried to explain in
my mail, not all vehicle rental with drivers are the same class (what we
want vs. "what exists": classes do not exist without someone creating it,
it is us who decide what kind of class according to what kind of criteria
we create - for mapping in osm). Example: it could be sufficient to have
just one tag (or "class") for all kinds of vehicles (likely not for most of
the OSM mappers though).

Already looking at Uber alone, it is clear they have quite different
divisions which offer different services which will likely fall into
different classes, e.g. Uberpop, UberBlack, Uber-Lux, Uber-SUV, Uber-X,
Uber-XL, UberSelect and Uber-Van. AFAIK Uber-X and UberBlack drivers are
required to hold a transportation license, i.e. they are similar to
traditional rental vehicles with drivers, while other concepts were more
aiming at circumventing regulation (which seems was ultimately not
succesful, in the EU there was a decision to reagrd them as transport
company and not as IT service company, as they had argued, and many
countries have banned their business either as a whole, or significant
parts of it).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[yo paseopor]

Yes , it is restricted to these vehicles. In the ground and in the traffic
signs you can read VTC (Uber, Cabify). I said I don't want discussion about
what is a VTC really and if should they exist. I only want to know how to
map it, because in the Barcelona's harbour there are spots specifically
tagged with VTC road marks, and I think they are not PSV vehicles so...
what is it? How to map it? Also, in Madrid there is a lot of shared cars.
How to map it? OSM's Wiki is so weak in these two terms.

Thanks
Salut i places d'aparcament
yopaseopor

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
>
> VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I
> think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name for
> Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport services
> but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).
>
>
>
> rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis in some
> jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably many more, e.g.
> France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy
> they are called NCC and you need a license, are not allowed to pick up
> customers nor to park your vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says
> they are a kind of public transport without routes, the German WP says they
> aren’t (in Germany). Uber (and others) don’t qualify because they don’t
> meet the requirements (their drivers don’t generally have a P-license in
> Germany, needed for the transport of people, they don’t typically have the
> NCC license in Italy, and they don’t adhere to other rules and regulations
> for this kind of transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending
> the service is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers (commercialization of
> the sharing economy).
>
> If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide a
> kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and
> see what we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish
> the different classes that we want.
>
>
> Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".
>
> What is being mapped?
> Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked?
> Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
> Or an office where these vehicles are managed?
>
>
> --
> In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire
> licence" for Uber.
>
>  Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they call them?
> Arrr minicabs.
> The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does the UK
> map minicabs?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184
>
> It is a can of worms.
>
> .
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Warin]

On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y. > wrote:


VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. 
I think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name 
for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport 
services but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).



rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis in 
some jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably many more, 
e.g. France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in Germany Uber 
qualifies. In Italy they are called NCC and you need a license, are 
not allowed to pick up customers nor to park your vehicle on public 
space. The Italian WP says they are a kind of public transport without 
routes, the German WP says they aren’t (in Germany). Uber (and others) 
don’t qualify because they don’t meet the requirements (their drivers 
don’t generally have a P-license in Germany, needed for the transport 
of people, they don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and 
they don’t adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of 
transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending the service 
is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers (commercialization of the 
sharing economy).


If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that 
provide a kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions 
carefully and see what we need to require in order to be able to 
identify and distinguish the different classes that we want.


Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".

What is being mapped?
Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked? 
Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?

Or an office where these vehicles are managed?


--
In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire 
licence" for Uber.


 Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they call 
them? Arrr minicabs.
The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does the UK 
map minicabs?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184

It is a can of worms.

.
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
> 
> VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I think 
> the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name for Uber, 
> Cabify and other companies that provide private transport services but are 
> not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).


rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis in some 
jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably many more, e.g. France 
[1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy they are 
called NCC and you need a license, are not allowed to pick up customers nor to 
park your vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says they are a kind of 
public transport without routes, the German WP says they aren’t (in Germany). 
Uber (and others) don’t qualify because they don’t meet the requirements (their 
drivers don’t generally have a P-license in Germany, needed for the transport 
of people, they don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and they don’t 
adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of transport). They are 
operating in a grey area, pretending the service is assimilable to picking up 
hitchhikers (commercialization of the sharing economy).

If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide a kind 
of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and see what 
we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish the 
different classes that we want.


Cheers,
Martin 



[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiture_de_transport_avec_chauffeur

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mietwagen_mit_Fahrer_(Deutschland)


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[José G Moya Y .]

VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I
think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name for
Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport services
but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).




El mar., 21 ago. 2018 8:15, Steve Doerr  escribió:

> On 20/08/2018 22:05, yo paseopor wrote:
> > These days I am editing Barcelona's harbour. One of the things I saw
> > there is some places for VTC car (like taxi but private: Uber, Cabify).
>
>
> What does VTC stand for?
>
>
> --
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Steve Doerr]

On 20/08/2018 22:05, yo paseopor wrote:
These days I am editing Barcelona's harbour. One of the things I saw 
there is some places for VTC car (like taxi but private: Uber, Cabify).



What does VTC stand for?


--

Steve


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Warin]

I think Uber is available to the public. So they should be PSV (assuming 
they are Uber etc).
There are bus parking spaces where bus driver takes a break. Possibly 
these too are for drivers to take a break?
It does need discussion with those that put them there as to what they 
mean.


One parking thing that is becoming more common - share cars. These 
parking spots are for 'share cars' that people can use (once they 
usually become a member and pay an annual fee).
They make good sense in places where they is limited parking and people 
find they usually walk or use public transport, if they own a car they 
cannot park  it anywhere near their home.
I know they exist frequently in Sydney .. about every block in certain 
areas.  They are not public, but private to members shared cars. 
Possibly tag access=private, private=share_car?
One firm is https://www.goget.com.au/  Humm they say 1,487 of them in 
Sydney, much less in other places.



 On 21/08/18 08:11, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
I think partially at least it would depend on the usage - are these 
spaces only available to use when you are using your car as a "taxi", 
so being parked to pick up passengers, or can you park your VTC there 
while you go & do the shopping! :-)


If only for use by a "taxi", then I'd be inclined to just leave them 
as a PSV space, possibly with a description to say that the space is 
for VTC.


Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 07:06, yo paseopor > wrote:


These days I am editing Barcelona's harbour. One of the things I
saw there is some places for VTC car (like taxi but private: Uber,
Cabify). I will not talk about the Spanish discussion about if
they have to exist or not, but in Barcelona's harbour we have
these kind of places of parking (4 or 5 spots). I think they are
not PSV vehicles (Should it exist PRSV (Private Service
Vehicles?). I try to find they in the wiki but I don't find it (I
don't consider they are taxis.
What do you think?

Thanks
Salut i taxi i VTC
yopaseopor
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I think partially at least it would depend on the usage - are these spaces
only available to use when you are using your car as a "taxi", so being
parked to pick up passengers, or can you park your VTC there while you go &
do the shopping! :-)

If only for use by a "taxi", then I'd be inclined to just leave them as a
PSV space, possibly with a description to say that the space is for VTC.

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 07:06, yo paseopor  wrote:

> These days I am editing Barcelona's harbour. One of the things I saw there
> is some places for VTC car (like taxi but private: Uber, Cabify). I will
> not talk about the Spanish discussion about if they have to exist or not,
> but in Barcelona's harbour we have these kind of places of parking (4 or 5
> spots). I think they are not PSV vehicles (Should it exist PRSV (Private
> Service Vehicles?). I try to find they in the wiki but I don't find it (I
> don't consider they are taxis.
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks
> Salut i taxi i VTC
> yopaseopor
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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