Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Mar 2018, at 08:42, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> not quite sure why everybody time is being wasted discussing 4 year old edits.


the app is still available and I didn’t initially note that the edits were 
apparently all older. Also there is still a lot of wetap namedropping in the 
wiki, e.g. here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwater
as if wetap:status was an established tag. If those tags are not welcome we 
should organize some clean up of wiki and possibly db.

I’ll propose a mechanical edit to remove all wetap:status=working and transform 
wetap:photo to “image” and if objects are changed which contain source=wetap 
I’d also remove it. 

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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Simon Poole]

Am 23.03.2018 um 14:37 schrieb Volker Schmidt:
> No, obviously, not in the sense that we do that systematically, but
> the problem exists in real terms. Drinking water is in many places of
> the world one of hose pieces of information that would be nice to be
> able to tag: have been here today, it's still working. Petrol stations
> is another. Or in case of areas with low population density the fact
> that a food supply point is still operational can be of great interest
> (When I rode on bicycle the old Route 66 in 2016 one of the essential
> tasks of our group leader was to keep a checklist of food stores,
> water points, and accommodation, in order to keep the ACA route
> description up-to-date)
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:check_date

Simon

PS: not quite sure why everybody time is being wasted discussing 4 year
old edits.

>
> On 23 March 2018 at 14:19, Martin Koppenhoefer  > wrote:
>
>
>
> 2018-03-23 14:09 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt  >:
>
> And this raises the obvious question: Do we have any way of
> tagging "tag value verified by survey today" ? This would be
> helpful in many situations. I am thinking about the repeated
> discussions about explicily tagging default values in order to
> underline that the value has been checked.
>
>
>
>
> Volker, do I understand you correctly that you propose to add a
> specific tag for every other tag which says when it was last
> checked? Like amenity=foo, amenity:last_survey=1985-04-01 ? So we
> must not add default tags because we can have a tag
> lanes:last_checked=2018-03-23 which implies that the number of
> lanes is default and must not be tagged explicitly?
> Sounds like a method to increase history bloat. I could check
> every minute that my house is still there, for example, and upload
> the result. ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Yves]

The changesets are available to know who change what and when! 

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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Warin]

On 24/03/18 00:09, Volker Schmidt wrote:
The automatic "source=wetap" is not correct. If you check with the app 
that a fountain is working, and that sets source=wetap, this is 
factually wrong. Also the concept of source=whateverapp is not 
correct, when whateeverapp is a tool to enter data which come from the 
user of the app. So in most cases, where there is no pre-existent 
source tag, you could think of manually inserting a source=survey tag.
"source=survey, entry by wetap" would be more descriptive. I have no 
problem with documenting the entry by an app - it is hardly spam as it 
is not rendered.


In the specific case of drinking fountains, this seems to be the 
attempt to insert something that indicates that on the date of the 
change the fountain was working, but that needs to be a different tag.


And this raises the obvious question: Do we have any way of tagging 
"tag value verified by survey today" ? This would be helpful in many 
situations. I am thinking about the repeated discussions about 
explicily tagging default values in order to underline that the value 
has been checked.


On 23 March 2018 at 13:32, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote:


I noticed that the wetap app sets tags in a "wetap" name space for
properties for which we already have established tags. Here's an
example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/304151931/history


Specifically, it sets the tag
wetap:status=working (IMHO for an amenity this is implied,
otherwise it is disused:amenity if the drinking fountain is not
running but still there).
wetap:photo (we use the image tag)

it also sets a "source=wetap" tag on every object that was touched
(e.g. if you confirm an existing object as wetap:status=working,
it will put a source=wetap tag on the object).



But then if you look at the history the past sources can be found.
I think this change to the source could be a good thing as it documents 
the source of the present tags.. provided all the tags were changed.



The tags are not documented AFAIK.

What is your opinion for this, shall we tolerate alternative
tagging to be introduced systematically by third party apps, when
there is already an established tag with supposedly (undocumented)
the same meaning?



Matter of moving the current app over to the documented/accepted tags so 
future entries 'fit'.


Changing past entries? I have not thought of.
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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-03-23 15:05 GMT+01:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 23/03/2018 13:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
> actually, this isn't an import but an app.
>
>
> Even so, I'd still comment on the changeset made by the person who pressed
> the button in the app so that they know that there is a problem.
>


I have now looked further into this, and it appears that the app collects
the data and sends it to the publisher, who will then upload the POIs into
OSM. At least this is what it looks like.


  Also of course you can try raising issues in github repositories etc. and
> as a last resort raise with the DWG (and the discussion on this list is
> also useful) but in the first instance the person who added the data to OSM
> should be responsible* and I'd comment to them.
>



thank you, I wouldn't want to escalate to the DWG if avoidable, it is not a
huge issue (~1000 objects) and the things are not appearing to be wrong,
just different tags rather than standard tags.
The object level source tag may be seen as kind of spam, but as far as I
have seen til now, the edits seem to be old (4-5 years) and maybe by that
time it wasn't clear yet to everybody, where to be put source information.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/03/2018 13:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


actually, this isn't an import but an app.


Even so, I'd still comment on the changeset made by the person who 
pressed the button in the app so that they know that there is a 
problem.  Also of course you can try raising issues in github 
repositories etc. and as a last resort raise with the DWG (and the 
discussion on this list is also useful) but in the first instance the 
person who added the data to OSM should be responsible* and I'd comment 
to them.


Best Regards,

Andy

* notwithstanding any "directed editing" issues which surely isn't a 
factor here.


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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Volker Schmidt]

No, obviously, not in the sense that we do that systematically, but the
problem exists in real terms. Drinking water is in many places of the world
one of hose pieces of information that would be nice to be able to tag:
have been here today, it's still working. Petrol stations is another. Or in
case of areas with low population density the fact that a food supply point
is still operational can be of great interest (When I rode on bicycle the
old Route 66 in 2016 one of the essential tasks of our group leader was to
keep a checklist of food stores, water points, and accommodation, in order
to keep the ACA route description up-to-date)

On 23 March 2018 at 14:19, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> 2018-03-23 14:09 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt :
>
>> And this raises the obvious question: Do we have any way of tagging "tag
>> value verified by survey today" ? This would be helpful in many situations.
>> I am thinking about the repeated discussions about explicily tagging
>> default values in order to underline that the value has been checked.
>>
>
>
>
> Volker, do I understand you correctly that you propose to add a specific
> tag for every other tag which says when it was last checked? Like
> amenity=foo, amenity:last_survey=1985-04-01 ? So we must not add default
> tags because we can have a tag lanes:last_checked=2018-03-23 which implies
> that the number of lanes is default and must not be tagged explicitly?
> Sounds like a method to increase history bloat. I could check every minute
> that my house is still there, for example, and upload the result. ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 13:32:45 +0100
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> The tags are not documented AFAIK.
> 
> What is your opinion for this, shall we tolerate alternative tagging
> to be introduced systematically by third party apps, when there is
> already an established tag with supposedly (undocumented) the same
> meaning?

No, authors of such misbehaving apps should be contacted.

I would change such tags to ones without app name with changeset
description "removing spam from tags".

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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-03-23 14:09 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt :

> And this raises the obvious question: Do we have any way of tagging "tag
> value verified by survey today" ? This would be helpful in many situations.
> I am thinking about the repeated discussions about explicily tagging
> default values in order to underline that the value has been checked.
>



Volker, do I understand you correctly that you propose to add a specific
tag for every other tag which says when it was last checked? Like
amenity=foo, amenity:last_survey=1985-04-01 ? So we must not add default
tags because we can have a tag lanes:last_checked=2018-03-23 which implies
that the number of lanes is default and must not be tagged explicitly?
Sounds like a method to increase history bloat. I could check every minute
that my house is still there, for example, and upload the result. ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-03-23 14:00 GMT+01:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 23/03/2018 12:32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> I noticed that the wetap app sets tags in a "wetap" name space for
>> properties for which we already have established tags. Here's an example:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/304151931/history
>>
>>
> Personally, I'd ask the question of the person who imported the data,
> initially via a changeset discussion comment.  That way they will at least
> have the option to reply here.  A web search for "wetap site:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports; (or /tagging) did not
> find anything for me.



actually, this isn't an import but an app.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Volker Schmidt]

The automatic "source=wetap" is not correct. If you check with the app that
a fountain is working, and that sets source=wetap, this is factually wrong.
Also the concept of source=whateverapp is not correct, when whateeverapp is
a tool to enter data which come from the user of the app. So in most cases,
where there is no pre-existent source tag, you could think of manually
inserting a source=survey tag.

In the specific case of drinking fountains, this seems to be the attempt to
insert something that indicates that on the date of the change the fountain
was working, but that needs to be a different tag.

And this raises the obvious question: Do we have any way of tagging "tag
value verified by survey today" ? This would be helpful in many situations.
I am thinking about the repeated discussions about explicily tagging
default values in order to underline that the value has been checked.

On 23 March 2018 at 13:32, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> I noticed that the wetap app sets tags in a "wetap" name space for
> properties for which we already have established tags. Here's an example:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/304151931/history
>
> Specifically, it sets the tag
> wetap:status=working (IMHO for an amenity this is implied, otherwise it is
> disused:amenity if the drinking fountain is not running but still there).
> wetap:photo (we use the image tag)
>
> it also sets a "source=wetap" tag on every object that was touched (e.g.
> if you confirm an existing object as wetap:status=working, it will put a
> source=wetap tag on the object).
>
> The tags are not documented AFAIK.
>
> What is your opinion for this, shall we tolerate alternative tagging to be
> introduced systematically by third party apps, when there is already an
> established tag with supposedly (undocumented) the same meaning?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] wetap specific tags

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/03/2018 12:32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I noticed that the wetap app sets tags in a "wetap" name space for 
properties for which we already have established tags. Here's an example:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/304151931/history



Personally, I'd ask the question of the person who imported the data, 
initially via a changeset discussion comment.  That way they will at 
least have the option to reply here.  A web search for "wetap 
site:https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports; (or /tagging) 
did not find anything for me.


Best Regards,
Andy




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