Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[yo paseopor]

I need help. How to tag a roundabout destination traffic sign
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6bMYhgICHVBL_H70ZnyPAg ? With
correspondence it is easy (for me), but I don't know how to do it with
multiple values.

Also I hope OSM people will advise strongly Finnish people as they are
using suffixed tags..

And at last but not least Mapbox Streets will need help to process
correctly all the information of OSM without cropping some information.

Cheers (Salut i senyals)
yopaseopor
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Johan C]

2017-01-22 22:32 GMT+01:00 yo paseopor :

> I need help. How to tag a roundabout destination traffic sign
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6bMYhgICHVBL_H70ZnyPAg ? With
> correspondence it is easy (for me), but I don't know how to do it with
> multiple values.
>
>
Please check it out (in JOSM for example). A bit strange, but the motorway
exit had an exit_to instead of a destination. I added the destination to
it. And the symbol as a separate value.


> Also I hope OSM people will advise strongly Finnish people as they are
> using suffixed tags..
>
> And at last but not least Mapbox Streets will need help to process
> correctly all the information of OSM without cropping some information.
>
> Cheers (Salut i senyals)
> yopaseopor
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 8:41 PM, yo paseopor  wrote:
>> I would expect that each value for destination only occurs a small
>> number of times, especially when there are multiple destinations.  Why
>> would a certain combination of destinations occurs more than a handful
>> of times ? Hence, you will not find them in the top values on taginfo.
>
>
> So you say each value...(are we talking about multiple values or values with
> semicolon?). What are the most used values: unique or multiple? Why don't we
> use multiple values more often?

Taginfo only shows how often a value occurs. When a lot of way have
destination Rome, the destination=Rome will occur often and taginfo
will reflect that. When there are not a lot of
destination=some-remote-place, they will be found with low counts on
the last pages of  taginfo for destination

When there are not a lot of destination=place1;place2 you will not see
that in taginfo. destination=place1;place3 is counted separately. They
are not counted for place1, nor place2, nor place3. I can imaging that
the combination of place1 and place2 is not a destination  that occurs
often, maybe on 1 or exits ?

I didn't conduct any experiments, but I did not use the claim from the
wiki text that one notation is easier than the other like you did.
Claiming that one notation is easier than the other can only be done
after experiments. I just said "I wonder whether".


m

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Hakuch]

On 22.01.2017 11:09, yo paseopor wrote:
> It's true, but OSM wiki, the tool people like me who tries to learn how to
> do something uses says that:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator#When_NOT_to_use
> .
> Change the wiki please if it is not.

The wiki is correct at this point, but your interpretation is not.
Regarding the Wiki, you should avoid semicolons whenever possible,
though not because of the semicolons but because of the multiple values.
So it makes not sense to replace one style of multiple values with
another one. The target is not to use multipe values at all, however
they are marked (with semicolons, with _2 or with your :2 style).
It means, that you should always try to use or to create taggings with
semantic weight, for example old_name, loc_name, short_name instead of
name=name1;name2;name3

Following this, you could try to find semantic weight for the different
destinations and discuss/use them. But when there is none (what I
assume), you should use the default multiple value scheme, and thats
what the semicolon has been chosen for (and not _1 and not any new
creations)

best regards, hakuch

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Hakuch]

On 22.01.2017 21:20, yo paseopor wrote:
> As you can see order is not random. In Catalonia is the same. How do you
> make correspondence with the order. 

But I agree, when there is really a important sense in order of the
values, putting them in a multiple value could be wrong

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[yo paseopor]

>
> Following this, you could try to find semantic weight for the different
> destinations and discuss/use them. But when there is none (what I
> assume),

Spanish ministery responsible of the roads did not think that

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/FC57DE0A-72BF-408F-
810E-467894BA8E38/110896/1110853.pdf

As you can see order is not random. In Catalonia is the same. How do you
make correspondence with the order. How you "extract" one unic value from
"multiple value" value?

Cheers (Salut i Senyals)
yopaseopor
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[yo paseopor]

> I would expect that each value for destination only occurs a small
> number of times, especially when there are multiple destinations.  Why
> would a certain combination of destinations occurs more than a handful
> of times ? Hence, you will not find them in the top values on taginfo.
>

So you say each value...(are we talking about multiple values or values
with semicolon?). What are the most used values: unique or multiple? Why
don't we use multiple values more often?


> I also wonder whether any key with "_1" or ":1" is better  for
> beginners than semi colons.
>

Because it follows one tag-one value policy I supose. But I don't know why
in the wiki I read "avoid semicolons"...if it is the best way to manage
multiple values. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multiple_values
 .Change the wiki to
encourage people to use multiple values.

"

*When (not) to use multiple valuesFor better or worse, a mapper's first
reaction to MV tags should be to avoid them. This is largely because many
data consumers do not handle MV tags well, either because they didn't
expect them or because handling them is complicated. As the OSM data model
doesn't directly support multiple values, they have been tacked-on with
various degrees of akwardness.*"


> Did you do an experiment with a large number of beginners ?
>
No. Did you do it about semicolons? What are the results?

>
> I also wonder which Overpass query is easier to compose, one that has
> to take the semi-colons into account or one that has to query for "_X"
> (or :X). Again a large experiment has never been conducted AFAIK, so
> no-one really knows.
>
Also I did not any scientific experiment. Did you do it with semicolons?
What are the results? It will be interesting to know it.

Cheers (Salut i senyals)
yopaseopor
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Colin Smale]

On 2017-01-22 21:51, Hakuch wrote:

> On 22.01.2017 21:20, yo paseopor wrote: 
> 
>> As you can see order is not random. In Catalonia is the same. How do you
>> make correspondence with the order.
> 
> But I agree, when there is really a important sense in order of the
> values, putting them in a multiple value could be wrong

The semicolon syntax, and all the other suggestions for multiple values,
all give ordered lists. All we need to do is to declare that the first
value is primary or dominant, and we are there. Consumers who are not
ready to handle multiple values in their data models can stop reading
after the first value and they still get a reasonable value to use. It
is a rather inconvenient truth that the real world has multi-valued
attributes, but that is not about to go away. 

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Hakuch]

On 22.01.2017 20:41, yo paseopor wrote:
> So you say each value...(are we talking about multiple values or values
> with semicolon?). What are the most used values: unique or multiple? Why
> don't we use multiple values more often?

Like I said in my other post, the wiki is not very clear here, but the
problem pointed out there is not the semicolon itself (not only) but the
main target is to avoid multiple values when there are better methods to
collect them (old_name, loc_name etc. for example)

> Because it follows one tag-one value policy I supose. But I don't know why
> in the wiki I read "avoid semicolons"...if it is the best way to manage
> multiple values. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multiple_values
>  .Change the wiki to
> encourage people to use multiple values.

no, we dont want to encourage people to use multiple values, but to use
the semicolon when it is really necessary to use multiple values.


In the past, there could have been other decissions to mark multiple
values. Some may argue that it would have been better to mark the MV on
the Key instead on the Value. But that decission has been made: Multiple
Values are marked with a semicolon on the Value, Keys should not be
marked (unfortunately the iD does...).

Even when one may prefer other variants it should be accepted because to
have two standards is worse than having one ugly but working standard.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 11:09 AM, yo paseopor  wrote:
> And if you search top100 list there are only 12 values with semicolon , 2
> with comma . All these values together are only 1792 tagged values...from
> 71665 total values.

I would expect that each value for destination only occurs a small
number of times, especially when there are multiple destinations.  Why
would a certain combination of destinations occurs more than a handful
of times ? Hence, you will not find them in the top values on taginfo.

I also wonder whether any key with "_1" or ":1" is better  for
beginners than semi colons.
Did you do an experiment with a large number of beginners ?

I also wonder which Overpass query is easier to compose, one that has
to take the semi-colons into account or one that has to query for "_X"
(or :X). Again a large experiment has never been conducted AFAIK, so
no-one really knows.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Hakuch]

On 22.01.2017 21:20, yo paseopor wrote:
>>
>> Following this, you could try to find semantic weight for the different
>> destinations and discuss/use them. But when there is none (what I
>> assume),
> 
> Spanish ministery responsible of the roads did not think that
> 
> http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/FC57DE0A-72BF-408F-
> 810E-467894BA8E38/110896/1110853.pdf

sorry I dont understand what this document shows, I cant speak spanish.
Maybe there is a traffic sign that you can show?


> 
> As you can see order is not random. In Catalonia is the same. How do you
> make correspondence with the order. How you "extract" one unic value from
> "multiple value" value?

consumers seperate the value into an array of values (in php for
example: $values = explode(';', $value))

greets

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[yo paseopor]

It's true, but OSM wiki, the tool people like me who tries to learn how to
do something uses says that:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator#When_NOT_to_use
.
Change the wiki please if it is not.

Wiki explains

"In general *avoid ';' separated values whenever possible*. Don't use them
in your mapping, and don't propose them on the wiki if there are better
ways of representing things. This is because use of semi-colons as value
separators is contrary to the aim of *keeping it simple* both for data
*contributors* (mappers) and data *users*. For the sake of new contributors
and anyone trying to *use* the data (people building software for
rendering, searching, "find my nearest cafe" mobile apps, etc) we should
minimise use of values with special characters.

It is particularly important to (wherever reasonably possible) avoid ';'
separated values in more important "top-level" tags. That is, tags which
define what an element is." Is not Destination value also so important?


Also there's some software who...does not support semicolon:


"Mapbox Streets

 replaces ; with a spaced em dash ( — ) in any name
=* or name:*
=* tag. For primary keys such
as amenity =* or shop
=*, it considers only the
portion up to the first semicolon and drops the rest."

 I think dropping data is not a good way of working with OSM :(


Taginfo says also there's some destination:x in Germany. For example
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A1

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A2

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A3

and so on...

Also if you see the list in taginfo about destination values you will see
only two in top20 list (well ,one is with comma so also there's some
problems of standarization)  from the most tagged values:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination#values

And if you search top100 list there are only 12 values with semicolon , 2
with comma . All these values together are only 1792 tagged values...from
71665 total values.


I think one tag one value it is the best standard for traffic signs also to
make it easier for the begginners and newbies.


Cheers (Salut i senyals)

yopaseopor
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[Tagging] wiki problems (was [Talk-us] destination:street)

[Andy Townsend]

There is a fundamental problem with any wiki, and it's not easy to fix.

Each page was obviously last edited by one user and one user only - they 
had the chance to change anything in it.  In some cases there is a 
difference of opinion about how to do something, some editors (Harry 
Wood is an obvious example that springs to mind) do a great job of both 
(a) saying that there isn't consensus and (b) suggesting what new 
mappers ought to do - even if that is to choose between two options.  
Unfortunately some wiki editors don't understand this, think that 
they're right and everyone else is wrong and (in the manner of xkcd's 
"Duty Calls") ensure that the wiki represents their opinion, and not the 
opposing view.


The edit that you're talking about is an example of this:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Semi-colon_value_separator=revision=1131976=1131680

In this case that wiki contributor was banned from editing the wiki (at 
least), but that's a very drastic solution, and they're not the only 
problem - at any time search through the wiki's "recent changes" for 
talk page edits and you see complaints about this sort of behaviour.



Best Regards,

Andy



On 22/01/17 10:09, yo paseopor wrote:
It's true, but OSM wiki, the tool people like me who tries to learn 
how to do something uses says that: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator#When_NOT_to_use. 


Change the wiki please if it is not.

Wiki explains

"In general*avoid ';' separated values whenever possible*. Don't use 
them in your mapping, and don't propose them on the wiki if there are 
better ways of representing things. This is because use of semi-colons 
as value separators is contrary to the aim of*keeping it simple*both 
for data/contributors/(mappers) and data/users/. For the sake of new 
contributors and anyone trying to/use/the data (people building 
software for rendering, searching, "find my nearest cafe" mobile apps, 
etc) we should minimise use of values with special characters.


It is particularly important to (wherever reasonably possible) avoid 
';' separated values in more important "top-level" tags. That is, tags 
which define what an element is." Is not Destination value also so 
important?



Also there's some software who...does not support semicolon:


"Mapbox Streets 
 replaces 
|;| with a spaced em dash (| — |) in any name 
=* or name:* 
=* tag. For primary keys 
such as amenity =* or 
shop =*, it considers 
only the portion up to the first semicolon and drops the rest."


 I think dropping data is not a good way of working with OSM :(


Taginfo says also there's some destination:x in Germany. For example 
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A1


http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A2

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A3

and so on...

Also if you see the list in taginfo about destination values you will 
see only two in top20 list (well ,one is with comma so also there's 
some problems of standarization)  from the most tagged values: 
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination#values


And if you search top100 list there are only 12 values with semicolon 
, 2 with comma . All these values together are only 1792 tagged 
values...from 71665 total values.



I think one tag one value it is the best standard for traffic signs 
also to make it easier for the begginners and newbies.



Cheers (Salut i senyals)

yopaseopor










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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 8:21 AM, yo paseopor  wrote:

> Other solution
> destination=Main Street
> destination:2=7th Avenue
> destination:3=Downtown Mappersville
> destination:4=Karte County Courthouse
> ... and so on.
>

Is this actually being used by anyone?  Semicolons have seperated multiple
values for longer than I've been with OSM, which is like, 8 years  now...
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Johan C]

I don't like your idea yopaseopor.

Why:
1. It's not forbidden to use a semicolon: 'But there are cases where
semicolons work and, anyway, we can’t completely avoid them. Let’s work on
defining our data model better and make it clearer where those semicolons
can and should be used and how they are to be interpreted.'
(*https://blog.jochentopf.com/2013-09-23-semicolons-in-osm-tags.html
) *

2. As you think it's more easy to use destination1=* for newbies, I think
it's way more complicated, since 1 has no meaning. And it creates
confusion: you might use destination1, others destination_1, and some
others destination:1

3. As pointed out here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Remove_suffixed_name-tags_from_wiki
name_1 suffixed name tagging for multiple values is deprecated

4. The semicolon in destinations, and refs, are already in use for quite a
long time. So what you are proposing creates (again) multiple tagging
systems in OSM to solve the same challenge.

5. Any renderer can make a split, simply by checking for the semicolon.

Cheers, Johan

2017-01-22 11:09 GMT+01:00 yo paseopor :

> It's true, but OSM wiki, the tool people like me who tries to learn how to
> do something uses says that: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-
> colon_value_separator#When_NOT_to_use.
> Change the wiki please if it is not.
>
> Wiki explains
>
> "In general *avoid ';' separated values whenever possible*. Don't use
> them in your mapping, and don't propose them on the wiki if there are
> better ways of representing things. This is because use of semi-colons as
> value separators is contrary to the aim of *keeping it simple* both for
> data *contributors* (mappers) and data *users*. For the sake of new
> contributors and anyone trying to *use* the data (people building
> software for rendering, searching, "find my nearest cafe" mobile apps, etc)
> we should minimise use of values with special characters.
>
> It is particularly important to (wherever reasonably possible) avoid ';'
> separated values in more important "top-level" tags. That is, tags which
> define what an element is." Is not Destination value also so important?
>
>
> Also there's some software who...does not support semicolon:
>
>
> "Mapbox Streets
> 
>  replaces ; with a spaced em dash ( — ) in any name
> =* or name:*
> =* tag. For primary keys
> such as amenity =* or
> shop =*, it considers only
> the portion up to the first semicolon and drops the rest."
>
>  I think dropping data is not a good way of working with OSM :(
>
>
> Taginfo says also there's some destination:x in Germany. For example
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A1
>
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A2
>
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/destination%3A3
>
> and so on...
>
> Also if you see the list in taginfo about destination values you will see
> only two in top20 list (well ,one is with comma so also there's some
> problems of standarization)  from the most tagged values: http://taginfo.
> openstreetmap.org/keys/destination#values
>
> And if you search top100 list there are only 12 values with semicolon , 2
> with comma . All these values together are only 1792 tagged values...from
> 71665 total values.
>
>
> I think one tag one value it is the best standard for traffic signs also
> to make it easier for the begginners and newbies.
>
>
> Cheers (Salut i senyals)
>
> yopaseopor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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