Re: [Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Spencer: >> sajolida: >> join forces and coordinate on #9563 > > I closed #5991: Include BitTorrent Software, since #9563 addresses the > issue. Thanks! ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hi, sajolida: join forces and coordinate on #9563 I closed #5991: Include BitTorrent Software, since #9563 addresses the issue. Wordlife, Spencer ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hi, str4d: Feel free to email me off-list with any questions you might have :) Word; will do. Wordlife, Spencer ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Spencer wrote: > Hi, > >> >> Spencer: Though I might not get around to this for a week or >> two, or three :) >> > > Or more. In progress, though. Feel free to email me off-list with any questions you might have :) str4d > > Wordlife, Spencer > > > > > > ___ Tails-dev mailing > list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev > To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to > tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWh1APAAoJEBO17ljAn7Pg1rYQAI53HceO9OyMG1JpmENhW5F4 gBtL2+T2fXh57tUuXQ4iKA3gk5LZr4HYqu16n7ySAh4cBm5wq+ZJOjFyKHMN6A3o YQLWUhQ4oc4BTsBf+ogeAkSKzZakosGY4m1XAvYwSmkvkypcaHk72tvrQtLjNEsK O7ksZrIrWvKf/9U5Uhe/Z8Mq7YjYBozAV94yR5maSP+NicJEI95904ZmIRJH7JHE 8ZykXm/koT90UNeDLJ0qsky5WsXQMsCExgRMcSZLQ41oJhLkfwuV2Fn4eSkspcoj TJsW8afaql2FnLr3tC9TvZQ33//6fi3l4XkaAGuQTtyuDiZyRmDKYzeJItqk6unV CWF7Fzv5nlErRjx4AkrhlFx0T5CJxOdk2zDEZBRPvITxGaoGNWAisxNW4HGPmLl1 UGoRJea/L70ZYNudu4f9w7AbL7AMqZ1uTyBwiAkyWLt+i3mwt1lktlmdxG7mIkZm arVHwWmLNJPjWcL+HPpA0na4rn0v9zCpB0yUv5nGdsWB2D4+E49SZ5Xyzb9rdS9O UqeoQ6BeYSbTbRam+fmKQVvZEm92w2T6bXuhmjMOkHSDI9yeAC3naGz++xJiWh5B haTX8bnwcGUVjCbdnAXC8/43NpAbjSwraswshyGa1EvdjWX33yA2MNEbXrP7wUFm l0RjXlthlpriSunlTNF6 =zW1E -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Spencer: > Hi, > >> >> Spencer: >> Though I might not get around to this for a week or two, or three :) >> > > Or more. In progress, though. > I have added sajolidas suggestions to the branch, please review https://git-tails.immerda.ch/emmapeel/tails/log/?h=bugfix/9563-mention-i2p-for-torrents ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hi, Spencer: Though I might not get around to this for a week or two, or three :) Or more. In progress, though. Wordlife, Spencer ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hi, sajolida: It's great if you want to work on this yourself ... send me all this information and I'll help you structure the documentation. Word. You're the best! Though I might not get around to this for a week or two, or three :) Wordlife, Spencer ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Spencer: >>> I'm in favor of documenting how to use Torrent over I2P > > How should this move forward? Reading the last message I think I > assigned it to you without asking; my bad :) > > I can figure out how to document this but I thought I should ask first: > should I be the one to document this? It's great if you want to work on this yourself. I think that to start with, you could: 1. Test this yourself as I'm afraid nobody else has enough knowledge about this to really help you. 2. Look for other documentation about this online. For example, is there any documentation about that already written by I2P. 3. Write a step-by-step synopsis of the actions needed to download a torrent in Tails, from booting it to accessing the downloaded file in Nautilus for example. 4. While doing so, gather any relevant information that makes it special to use BitTorrent in the context of Tails but might not be part of the step-by-step synopsis nor of external reference documentation (if any). Then you can send me all this information and I'll help you structure the documentation. You should also read our guidelines [0] and the GNOME Style Guide [1] but this can come after gathering all this info. [0]: https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/documentation/guidelines/ [1]: http://developer.gnome.org/gdp-style-guide/2.32/ ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hi, Following up. I'm in favor of documenting how to use Torrent over I2P How should this move forward? Reading the last message I think I assigned it to you without asking; my bad :) I can figure out how to document this but I thought I should ask first: should I be the one to document this? Wordlife, Spencer ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hey, sajolida: Based on my limited understanding of the topic, I think that the way to go would be to document how to do Torrent over I2P. Maybe. IP Configuration and added steps are somewhat of a blocker, or at least reduce the smoothness of the experience. Some people started working on this a while ago task right now: https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/9563. Thanks for this link :) Did you check our I2P documentation. I did. The instructions [0] may provide extra benefit if linked to from the 'Design' section of [1] and directly from the BitTorrent section [2] on the FAQ. I'm in favor of documenting how to use Torrent over I2P, either in the I2P page, in a subpage, or in the advanced topics section. Up to you since you know this :) Documentation is super important here given the context. Let me know if you would like me to assist. Wordlife, Spencer [0]: https://tails.boum.org/doc/anonymous_internet/i2p/ [1]: https://tails.boum.org/contribute/design/I2P/ [2]: https://tails.boum.org/support/faq/index.en.html#index29h2 ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Spencer: >> str4d: >> If I2P is enabled > > The Design section at https://tails.boum.org/contribute/design/I2P/ > points out some I2P issues. A new question is, are these concerns > relevant to the Tor Network as well? > > If so, then maybe there can be a "Torrent over I2P :)" consensus based > on the Tor Project's preference to not support torrenting. Based on my limited understanding of the topic, I think that the way to go would be to document how to do Torrent over I2P. Some people started working on this a while ago task right now: https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/9563. >> adding the i2p flag to the boot parameters > > The Tails documentation on this is not clear to me. > > Also, the links https://tails.boum.org/geti2p.net and > http://127.0.0.1:7657/i2psnark do not load :( Did you check our I2P documentation. It might be outdated but should be enough to get you started. Otherwise, please clarify what's outdated in the documentation: https://tails.boum.org/doc/anonymous_internet/i2p/ >> [native application] only usable with I2P > > Easy, and I think maybe a good way to go. Something less usefully > bloated than Vuze might be more suitable...the I2P documentation has > some good alternatives. > >> Perhaps something to this effect could be added to the documentation? > > sajolida, what do you think? I'm in favor of documenting how to use Torrent over I2P, either in the I2P page, in a subpage, or in the advanced topics section. ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hi, str4d: If I2P is enabled The Design section at https://tails.boum.org/contribute/design/I2P/ points out some I2P issues. A new question is, are these concerns relevant to the Tor Network as well? If so, then maybe there can be a "Torrent over I2P :)" consensus based on the Tor Project's preference to not support torrenting. adding the i2p flag to the boot parameters The Tails documentation on this is not clear to me. Also, the links https://tails.boum.org/geti2p.net and http://127.0.0.1:7657/i2psnark do not load :( [native application] only usable with I2P Easy, and I think maybe a good way to go. Something less usefully bloated than Vuze might be more suitable...the I2P documentation has some good alternatives. Perhaps something to this effect could be added to the documentation? sajolida, what do you think? Side note: I2P supports UDP traffic, but only really for apps that are built with I2P support (either native Java, or via the SAM API). Both I2PSnark and Vuze have DHT support, and IIRC there is a proposal for implementing uTP. We do also have a SOCKS tunnel that we haven't finished adding UDP support to, because of a lack of dev time/funds/incentive... I2P torrent clients (and apps in general) use a single Destination, so usually only have two or three tunnels built at any one time. This can be manually increased up to a maximum of 16, although six is usually sufficient to see a decent speed increase. Good to know :) Tails defaults to hidden mode; then again, the number of people using Tails for I2P torrenting would probably be low, compared to the number of Vuze nodes (which currently are estimated to make up about 30-40% of the I2P network). If people see Tails and I2P as a gateway to torrenting their long-lost Where's Wally VHS, that could change. Wordlife, Spencer ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Spencer wrote: > Hi, > > Tails should either include BitTorrent software, explain how to > safely use user installed BitTorrent software, or document the > technical limitations behind not doing so. It does include torrenting software, to some degree. If I2P is enabled (by adding the i2p flag to the boot parameters), then users can use I2PSnark to torrent inside the I2P network. Previously this was less useful to users because of the lack of content (compared to clearnet), but with the increase in bridging Vuze peers (seeding to both clearnet and I2P), it is now a reasonable alternative. Any magnet URI from a clearnet torrent can be fetched via I2P if there is a bridging peer seeding it, or if the identical content is independently seeded inside I2P. There is the obvious reduction in speed, but that is a standard tradeoff of anonymous (non-VPN) torrenting. (Tails could also install Vuze if they wanted a non-webUI torrent client, but users would need to be educated on the fact that it is only usable with I2P). Perhaps something to this effect could be added to the documentation? > > The purpose of this thread is to discuss and conclude the matter > of including/supporting BitTorrent in some way in Tails. > > This [0] is what we currently say. This [1] is the existing > ticket. > > > Research Thus Far (If there is more please include) > --- > > Tor Project Blog Post: > https://blog.torproject.org/blog/bittorrent-over-tor-isnt-good-idea > > Feedback from a user: I tried "apt-get install ctorrent" > followed by "torify ctorrent torrentfile.torrent" while > monitoring all communication with Wireshark. While ctorrent always > generate new unique peer and key IDs each time the torrent is > started, always report the same port, and always report IP=0.0.0.0, > do not attempt to discover external ip, and no proxy bypasses > happens, I concluded it may be safe to use. > > Besides that UDP does not work at all over Tor (DHT, uTP, UDP > trackers etc...), which of course reduce the usefulness of a > BitTorrent client in Tails, there is one real major problem I can > see: Side note: I2P supports UDP traffic, but only really for apps that are built with I2P support (either native Java, or via the SAM API). Both I2PSnark and Vuze have DHT support, and IIRC there is a proposal for implementing uTP. We do also have a SOCKS tunnel that we haven't finished adding UDP support to, because of a lack of dev time/funds/incentive... > > Each connection to a peer is going through its own Tor circuit. > This means Tor ends up building about 100 circuits, using about > half of them at any time. It also means it easily reach download > speeds of 3 megabyte/second. One basically never get over 150 > kilobytes/second through one single circuit (e.g. http downloads), > so this DOES put a lot of load on the Tor network. Proposed > solution would be to get all connections for the same torrent > through the same circuit. I2P torrent clients (and apps in general) use a single Destination, so usually only have two or three tunnels built at any one time. This can be manually increased up to a maximum of 16, although six is usually sufficient to see a decent speed increase. Obviously, we recommend that I2P routers that are torrenting contribute bandwidth back to the network. When Vuze nodes first appeared their default share ratio was low, and the global network quality suffered noticeably. After increasing the share ratio, the network recovered. This is currently not done in Tails because it defaults to hidden mode; then again, the number of people using Tails for I2P torrenting would probably be low, compared to the number of Vuze nodes (which currently are estimated to make up about 30-40% of the I2P network). str4d > > > What To Do --- > > - Talk about the protocol (What are the issues with UDP [2], TCP, > extensions, and so on?) > > - Talk about the circuits/load (Can connections be funneled through > less circuits and/or be less of a burden?) > > - Talk about pre/post packaging (Will we include BitTorrent > software in Tails?) > > > If this sounds good, let's do it :) > > Wordlife, Spencer > > [0]: https://tails.boum.org/support/faq/index.en.html#index29h2 > [1]: https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/5991 [2]: > https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot15/workshop-program/presentation /p2p-file-sharing-hell-exploiting-bittorrent > > > > > > ___ Tails-dev mailing > list Tails-dev@boum.org > https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from > this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWOycnAAoJEBO17ljAn7PgUjkP/iRkunooip+mSzp/P/ejTBUy VpqxJBUZBpF3LDVUqQjxqs1D/QPFQT4KHwaIEHX+z0eG31apPxi9rA5TMqG3pxLI r7PHKl5I09OUkZahBXiELDht6D4uXeYooFX2d1nKMJXhDKZIt8VoyW6IBDpQAUTk dJE3CzLMnwNrEVpGK3
[Tails-dev] [Tails - Feature #5991] Include BitTorrent software
Hi, Tails should either include BitTorrent software, explain how to safely use user installed BitTorrent software, or document the technical limitations behind not doing so. The purpose of this thread is to discuss and conclude the matter of including/supporting BitTorrent in some way in Tails. This [0] is what we currently say. This [1] is the existing ticket. Research Thus Far (If there is more please include) --- Tor Project Blog Post: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/bittorrent-over-tor-isnt-good-idea Feedback from a user: I tried "apt-get install ctorrent" followed by "torify ctorrent torrentfile.torrent" while monitoring all communication with Wireshark. While ctorrent always generate new unique peer and key IDs each time the torrent is started, always report the same port, and always report IP=0.0.0.0, do not attempt to discover external ip, and no proxy bypasses happens, I concluded it may be safe to use. Besides that UDP does not work at all over Tor (DHT, uTP, UDP trackers etc...), which of course reduce the usefulness of a BitTorrent client in Tails, there is one real major problem I can see: Each connection to a peer is going through its own Tor circuit. This means Tor ends up building about 100 circuits, using about half of them at any time. It also means it easily reach download speeds of 3 megabyte/second. One basically never get over 150 kilobytes/second through one single circuit (e.g. http downloads), so this DOES put a lot of load on the Tor network. Proposed solution would be to get all connections for the same torrent through the same circuit. What To Do --- - Talk about the protocol (What are the issues with UDP [2], TCP, extensions, and so on?) - Talk about the circuits/load (Can connections be funneled through less circuits and/or be less of a burden?) - Talk about pre/post packaging (Will we include BitTorrent software in Tails?) If this sounds good, let's do it :) Wordlife, Spencer [0]: https://tails.boum.org/support/faq/index.en.html#index29h2 [1]: https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/5991 [2]: https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot15/workshop-program/presentation/p2p-file-sharing-hell-exploiting-bittorrent ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://mailman.boum.org/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
