[Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[Spencer]

Hi,

> 
> intrigeri:
> the message that "plugging one's Tails 
> device in an untrusted OS is dangerous" > 

I respect this intention but struggle to see how the trust verification 
functions when equipped with only a warning; trust is hard to determine, 
especially up front, even if you "own" the machine.

> 
> good enough
> 

Don't let me bottleneck any development with philos.

>
> what problem these proposals
> are tackling?
>

The same as this:

> 
> detecting the presence of .DS_Store 
> files and friends
> 

i.e., trusting the device.

A use case could be:
I see occupied bits on a USB stick I intend to use as a Tails device; I am 
concerned.

I would like to recover this space but am unsure if reformatting is effective; 
it turns out extended partitions can go untouched during reformatting.

I reformat.

I still see the occupied bits; I am further concerned, specifically that my 
device has been pwnd by a powerful adversary.

I wish there was a tool for this.

- - -

There is but should Tails provide the same service; probably not.

However, if there is a potential Tails device integrity check tool, it could 
provide a complete service and visualize the partition table in some way; text 
is plenty.

No worries (:

Wordlife,
Spencer



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Re: [Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[intrigeri]

Hi,

Spencer wrote (25 Mar 2016 18:30:05 GMT) :
>> intrigeri:
>> Tails system partition is enough

> Will you explain a bit more about this?

I'm personally interested in conveying more clearly, to our users, the
message that "plugging one's Tails device in an untrusted OS is
dangerous" [1]. I think that detecting the presence of .DS_Store files
and friends on a started Tails is a good trigger to educate the user
a bit about it. It's easy to implement, and seems to be good enough,
so any other proposal will need to be better.

[1] https://mailman.boum.org/pipermail/tails-dev/2016-February/010251.html

Detecting hidden partitions was also proposed back then, but I don't
know what problem it is meant to address (and I don't see how it can
help address the problem mentioned above), so I'm afraid I can't
comment further on this topic with the info I currently have.

> It could check the MBR partition table for any occupied bits.

> But the specific thought was to check for extended partition entries.

Here again: can you please describe what problem these proposals
are tackling?

Cheers,
-- 
intrigeri
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[Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[Spencer]

Hi,



intrigeri:
Tails system partition is enough



Will you explain a bit more about this?



intrigeri:
whose type is "Hidden W95 FAT32"



It seems that any format type is optional.



is it any broader?



It could check the MBR partition table for any occupied bits.

But the specific thought was to check for extended partition entries.

[Tangential Thought]:

We could also check and flip the RMB bit for supporting UFD controllers, 
making the USB stick usable for Tails - Ignore this (:


Wordlife,
Spencer



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Re: [Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[intrigeri]

Hi,

Austin English wrote (24 Mar 2016 22:33:18 GMT) :
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 4:45 PM, intrigeri  wrote:
>> IMO for #11137, checking the content of the Tails system partition
>> is enough, so no need to check for "hidden" partitions. But if you
>> want to:
>>
>>> I used a hidden FAT32 partition for testing:
>>> 1g.img2 206848  227327   20480   10M 1b Hidden W95 FAT32
>>
>>> my other thought was checking the Partition ID, unless someone knows a
>>> better way.
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Is this about detecting partitions whose type is "Hidden W95 FAT32"?
>>
>> Or is it any broader?

> It was not my original idea, it was originally proposed here:
> https://mailman.boum.org/pipermail/tails-dev/2016-February/010303.html

> Though I'm considering dropping that portion of the idea because there
> is a lot of confusion about it. I'm not sure what exactly is
> desired/requested,

Fully understood. I'm not sure either. Unless Spencer clarifies the
idea, someone else (you?) needs to research the topic and propose
something that translates "hidden partitions" into something that can
be implemented.

> or how to find the information needed to detect
> these partitions properly

FTR I'm happy to help with that, if we keep this idea, once it is
clearer what exactly we are trying to detect.

> and being put in a position to defend those
> decisions is not a place I like being.

My intention was not to attack what you were trying to do, but to try
and understand it, so I could help answer the specific technical
questions you were asking. Apparently I failed at that, and instead
I've contributed to create bad feelings. I'm sorry about that :/

Cheers,
-- 
intrigeri
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Re: [Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[Austin English]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 4:45 PM, intrigeri  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> (reordered due to top-posting)
>
> Austin English wrote:
>>> I would try to help, but I don't know what you mean with "hidden
>>> partitions" exactly. Could you please clarify how this translates into
>>> non-ambiguous technical concepts?
>
>> This is for https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/11137, trying to any
>> partitions that are listed in the partition table.
>
> Missing word?

Yes, 'detect':
This is for https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/11137, trying to
detect any partitions that are listed in the partition table.

> IMO for #11137, checking the content of the Tails system partition
> is enough, so no need to check for "hidden" partitions. But if you
> want to:
>
>> I used a hidden FAT32 partition for testing:
>> 1g.img2 206848  227327   20480   10M 1b Hidden W95 FAT32
>
>> my other thought was checking the Partition ID, unless someone knows a
>> better way.
>
> OK.
>
> Is this about detecting partitions whose type is "Hidden W95 FAT32"?
>
> Or is it any broader?

It was not my original idea, it was originally proposed here:
https://mailman.boum.org/pipermail/tails-dev/2016-February/010303.html

Though I'm considering dropping that portion of the idea because there
is a lot of confusion about it. I'm not sure what exactly is
desired/requested, or how to find the information needed to detect
these partitions properly and being put in a position to defend those
decisions is not a place I like being.

-- 
-Austin
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Re: [Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[intrigeri]

Hi,

(reordered due to top-posting)

Austin English wrote:
>> I would try to help, but I don't know what you mean with "hidden
>> partitions" exactly. Could you please clarify how this translates into
>> non-ambiguous technical concepts?

> This is for https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/11137, trying to any
> partitions that are listed in the partition table.

Missing word?

IMO for #11137, checking the content of the Tails system partition
is enough, so no need to check for "hidden" partitions. But if you
want to:

> I used a hidden FAT32 partition for testing:
> 1g.img2 206848  227327   20480   10M 1b Hidden W95 FAT32

> my other thought was checking the Partition ID, unless someone knows a
> better way.

OK.

Is this about detecting partitions whose type is "Hidden W95 FAT32"?

Or is it any broader?

Cheers,
-- 
intrigeri
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
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Re: [Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[Austin English]

This is for https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/11137, trying to any
partitions that are listed in the partition table.

I used a hidden FAT32 partition for testing:
1g.img2 206848  227327   20480   10M 1b Hidden W95 FAT32

my other thought was checking the Partition ID, unless someone knows a
better way.

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 10:52 AM, intrigeri  wrote:
> Austin English wrote (12 Mar 2016 04:58:54 GMT) :
>> So, when it comes to detecting hidden partitions, is it as simple as
>> doing $(fdisk -l | grep -i hidden)?
>
> I'm afraid this is too brittle: this can return true for various
> reasons even if there is no "hidden" partition, e.g. a LV whose name
> contains the "hidden" string.
>
> I would try to help, but I don't know what you mean with "hidden
> partitions" exactly. Could you please clarify how this translates into
> non-ambiguous technical concepts?
>
> Cheers,
> --
> intrigeri
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-- 
-Austin
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Re: [Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[intrigeri]

Austin English wrote (12 Mar 2016 04:58:54 GMT) :
> So, when it comes to detecting hidden partitions, is it as simple as
> doing $(fdisk -l | grep -i hidden)?

I'm afraid this is too brittle: this can return true for various
reasons even if there is no "hidden" partition, e.g. a LV whose name
contains the "hidden" string.

I would try to help, but I don't know what you mean with "hidden
partitions" exactly. Could you please clarify how this translates into
non-ambiguous technical concepts?

Cheers,
-- 
intrigeri
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[Tails-dev] Detecting hidden partitions?

[Austin English]

So, when it comes to detecting hidden partitions, is it as simple as
doing $(fdisk -l | grep -i hidden)? I realize is a simple difference and
has no real effect, but I'm not sure how to properly detect this 'feature'.

Thanks,
Austin



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