Re: [GTALUG] keyboards

[David Mason via talk]

On Oct 23, 2021, 2:11 PM -0400, William Park via talk , wrote:
> Thanks for info. Do you have "clicky" or "tactile" keys?
The Matias keyboard I have is marketed as an Apple replacement, and it has the 
same feel as the newest Apple keyboard, which means that there is some 
resistance to the keypress (and the same resistance throughout the keystroke), 
and there is a bit of a tactile click but it is fairly quiet. There was an 
issue with key feel for apple (I think laptop) keyboards a few years ago, but I 
think most people like the current keys (duplicated on my Matias). They may 
have other key dynamics available, I’m not sure.

Hope that helps.

../Dave
>
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Re: [GTALUG] keyboards

[William Park via talk]

Thanks for info.  Do you have "clicky" or "tactile" keys?

On 10/23/21 8:56 AM, David Mason via talk wrote:
I am not the keyboard geek that some of you obviously are, however I 
would be remiss to not point out a Canadian company:


https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/

I don’t have their ergo (split) keyboard, but I do have 2 of their 
keyboards and quite like them. I just got a new iMac with the beautiful 
colour-coded keyboard, but immediately miss the backlighting of the 
Matias keyboard. I am not a perfect touch typist, although quite fast. I 
use my keyboard mostly for programming.


This conversation does make me curious about the split keyboard. Is 
Giles “took a month to get used to it” typical?


../Dave

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Re: [GTALUG] keyboards

[Giles Orr via talk]

On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 at 12:44, Jason Shaw via talk  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 12:24 PM Giles Orr via talk  wrote:
>> There appear to be a lot of definitions of what "ergonomic" means when
>> it comes to keyboards.  I tend to the most extreme example: I own
>> three (working) Kinesis Advantage keyboards.  The Advantage2 can be
>> had for $400-$450 Canadian - not cheap.  They come with Cherry brown
>> switches, but I have a habit of retrofitting them with Cherry blues -
>> which makes them noisier and more expensive.
>>
>> Everybody is recommending the keyboard(s) they love ...  I have a
>> CoolerMaster with Cherry Blues, and several IBM model Ms, and have had
>> many other types of "ergonomic" keyboards over the years.  I love the
>> feel of the switches in both the CoolerMaster and the model Ms, but I
>> find I need the two halves of the keyboard farther apart for comfort.
>> I also prefer vertical columns of keys - as opposed to the now totally
>> unnecessary leftward slant of key columns on almost all modern
>> keyboards.  I've experimented with keyboards a lot to end up where I
>> am: the Kinesis Advantage took a month to adjust to, but has been
>> worth it ... for me.  It's my daily driver both at home and at work.
>> You have to make your own call on these things.
>>
>> A note about gaming keyboards: gamers seem to tend to prefer low
>> activation force, linear keys (Cherry Blacks or Cherry Reds).  Most
>> people who type for a living (as opposed to gaming) seem to prefer
>> "tactile" keys, which is quite different from the "linear" keys which
>> don't have any feedback at all until they bottom out.  I hate linears
>> (but again - personal taste).  And then there's the "clicky" thing:
>> the noise the IBM model M makes can be enough to clear a small room.
>> Some people really really hate that noise.  I get that, but I still
>> love the feel of those things.
>>
>> Further reading (my intro to keyboard layouts and key types):
>> https://www.gilesorr.com/blog/computer-keyboards.html
>
>
> Thanks for that Giles.
>
> Keyboards are a very personal choice, and what's right for one user isn't 
> going to be right for another.
>
> Personally, I use a ThinkPad X1 Carbon quite regularly and have for ~10 
> years, and love the touchpoint (red nub), so even my external keyboard for a 
> long time was the ThinkPad TrackPoint kb 
> (https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KBD-BO-TrackPoint-KBD-US-English/p/4Y40X49493).
>  Over time though, my posture was suffering and my wrists were sore at the 
> end of a workday. Combined with a personal accident that resulted in some 
> permanent fingertip damage on my dominant hand, I needed something with 
> better ergonomics, so I took the plunge on a split style, mechanical 
> keyboard, and can't imagine going back.  The added benefit of having the desk 
> area immediately in front of me wide open is great too.
>
> I would like to try an ortholinear split keyboard at some point, but have no 
> real desire to spend a month or two re-learning to type again.

Jason (and Dave),

if you can find an "ortholinear" keyboard (and/or split keyboard)
that's not a Kinesis or Maltron, you'll find the finger retraining
period is actually quite small.  The "month" I've been given to quote
as my adjustment period for the Kinesis has almost nothing to do with
the vertical key columns or the split.  What takes so long to adjust
to is the weird (but good!) key curve, the repositioned keys, and
especially the much-increased use of the thumb.  And I know these are
the causes because I had a vertical row keyboard before I moved to the
Kinesis: the key layout was otherwise traditional, and adjusting to it
took only a couple days.

I've also found that switching between keyboard layouts is easy now
that I know both.  I use a Kinesis as a daily driver, but I can switch
to a standard keyboard at the drop of a hat.  The worst thing I do is
occasionally hit the space bar with my left thumb because that's where
the Escape key should be (what can I say - a remapping for a hardcore
Vim user), and I usually get over that in about ten minutes.

I'm going to add a "Hallelujah!" for the Matias placement of the "6"
key on the right hand: the vast majority of split keyboards put this
on the left, which is incorrect for touch typing.  And again a matter
of personal taste ...

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] keyboards

[David Mason via talk]

I am not the keyboard geek that some of you obviously are, however I would be 
remiss to not point out a Canadian company:

https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/

I don’t have their ergo (split) keyboard, but I do have 2 of their keyboards 
and quite like them. I just got a new iMac with the beautiful colour-coded 
keyboard, but immediately miss the backlighting of the Matias keyboard. I am 
not a perfect touch typist, although quite fast. I use my keyboard mostly for 
programming.

This conversation does make me curious about the split keyboard. Is Giles “took 
a month to get used to it” typical?

../Dave
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[GTALUG] Looking users of the Kenisis Advantage keyboards

[o1bigtenor via talk]

Greetings

In the thread re: keyboards the Kenisis Advantage keyboards have come
up in discussing ergonomic keyboards.

Wondering - - - is there anyone out there that was a quite proficient user
of a regular keyboard that moved to the Kenisis Advantage?

I keep hearing about how it takes a month or two to 'relearn' the skills
due to differences in the key layout. I know that moving from even a M$
4000 ergonomic to my present Kensington has shown me that little things
like a touch of space between the 'caps lock' and the 'a' show up. Maybe
I'm just sloppier on the keyboard than I thought. I remember finding moving
from a 'regular' keyboard to an ergonomic model (IIRC that was a Logitech)
was a breeze. Somehow I'm wondering about that time to get comfortable on
the Advantage keyboard.

I would really like to know how challenging you found the change and/or how
long it took until you were comfortable. If you would rather not share the
thread private emails would be fine.

TIA
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Re: [GTALUG] keyboards

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 11:24 AM Giles Orr via talk  wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 16:40, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:
>
snip (trying to keep the length somewhat reasonable!)

> >>
> >> There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches.
> >> 
> >>
> >> My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile).
> >> I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile).
> >>
> >> If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the
> >> switches.  I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
> >>
> >
> > Interesting comments from all of the responders so far.
> > Is anyone using an ergonomic keyboard from this group.
> > The old rectangular keyboard makes my hands ache at the
> > thought of using only this. I have some cheap keyboards gotten
> > with machine purchases - - - my working keyboard for anything
> > more than a few keystrokes is an ergonomic version. I'm about
> > 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm
> > just isn't comfortable.
> >
> > I also like my numeric keypad - - - - do a lot of entries on that
> > for business use and would like to have it part of the keyboard
> > if at all possible.
> >
> > I have used the mechanical keys in a very long time - - - think
> > I would prefer less noise rather than more but for high quality
> > would like give on that!
> >
> > Re: gaming - - - - I'm having too fun fun and use far too much time
> > on my system without playing any games - - - tend to relax with a
> > book (most often a physical copy too).
> >
> > Thanking one and all for their input!
>
> There appear to be a lot of definitions of what "ergonomic" means when
> it comes to keyboards.  I tend to the most extreme example: I own
> three (working) Kinesis Advantage keyboards.  The Advantage2 can be
> had for $400-$450 Canadian - not cheap.  They come with Cherry brown
> switches, but I have a habit of retrofitting them with Cherry blues -
> which makes them noisier and more expensive.
>
> Everybody is recommending the keyboard(s) they love ...  I have a
> CoolerMaster with Cherry Blues, and several IBM model Ms, and have had
> many other types of "ergonomic" keyboards over the years.  I love the
> feel of the switches in both the CoolerMaster and the model Ms, but I
> find I need the two halves of the keyboard farther apart for comfort.
> I also prefer vertical columns of keys - as opposed to the now totally
> unnecessary leftward slant of key columns on almost all modern
> keyboards.  I've experimented with keyboards a lot to end up where I
> am: the Kinesis Advantage took a month to adjust to, but has been
> worth it ... for me.  It's my daily driver both at home and at work.
> You have to make your own call on these things.
>
> A note about gaming keyboards: gamers seem to tend to prefer low
> activation force, linear keys (Cherry Blacks or Cherry Reds).  Most
> people who type for a living (as opposed to gaming) seem to prefer
> "tactile" keys, which is quite different from the "linear" keys which
> don't have any feedback at all until they bottom out.  I hate linears
> (but again - personal taste).  And then there's the "clicky" thing:
> the noise the IBM model M makes can be enough to clear a small room.
> Some people really really hate that noise.  I get that, but I still
> love the feel of those things.
>
> Further reading (my intro to keyboard layouts and key types):
> https://www.gilesorr.com/blog/computer-keyboards.html
>
> Interesting article and thanks for the response!

I learnt my typing skills on a manual typewriter using a 'Gregg
typing manual' as a class way back in junior high school.
My typing timed tests from those days were well north of
50 wpm - - - - its proved to be quite a useful skill over the
years.

I am also quite appalled at the total apathy most display
regarding their keyboards. It would seem that cheap is
the only useful attribute. This is not to say that I 'like' even
the idea of the seriously expensive Kinesis models but
I've been thinking about them for a couple years already.

Wish we didn't get hit so hard at the border when getting
them though!!!

Regards
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