Re: [GTALUG] RHEL Free Tier vs CentOS Stream vs Alma Linux vs Rocky Linux

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 31/01/2023 16.26, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:


- hurts Red Hat, but that isn't immoral


Red Hat is IBM, so I guess they're kind of undead and far beyond hurt. 
I'm sure my late father would have been far less careful what he said 
about Big Blue, since he'd worked for ICT/ICL while IBM ruled the world.


 Stewart

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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 31/01/2023 10.10, Dhaval Giani wrote:


https://ubuntu.com/pricing/pro


Ah, I didn't see that link, only the "Contact us ..." bit on the main page
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[GTALUG] RHEL Free Tier vs CentOS Stream vs Alma Linux vs Rocky Linux

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

They are all kind of the same.
Competition is great.
They are all, to some extent, parasites living off RHEL.

Is that too many parasites?  Too many in what sense?:

- hurts Red Hat, but that isn't immoral

- a free version allows the system to go more places.
  This should actually help Red Hat.

- it sometimes causes Red Hat to take evasive actions that hurt the 
  product

  + eg. chunking of kernel changes to make more work for Oracle

  + eg. buying CentOS and then repurposing it

- causes duplicated cloning work

Without sufficient research, I kind of like the smell of Alma best.

How about you?
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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Kevin Cozens via talk 

| I saw that reference to "infra-only". What does that mean?

Look at "WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE" down a little bit on the pricing page.
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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk 
| 
| It's become interesting to follow what appears to be a re-invention of the
| model taking place as CIQ  seeks to be for Rocky Linux
| what Canonical was for Ubuntu (hopefully, better!). There are, to be sure,
| significant differences between the two pairs' interrelationships; but it
| will be interesting to see the differences in approaches between the two.
| Might even make it worth exploring the Red Hat Universe again.
| 
| If I want to leave Ubuntu-world for my (nominally-headless) server, what
| would be the path of least resistance? Debian?

I followed that link and got, front and centre, a video full of
aspirational market-speak.  No usable info.

Canonical has done a lot of work creating Ubuntu.  Of course they
stand on the shoulders of the rest of us, but it has been real and
respectable work.  Now they are trying another way to make some money
off this.

Rocky Linux appears to be just a copy of RHEL (as was CentOS).  I
guess CIQ is selling support for it (the front page doesn't say).
Just like RHEL.  It will likely be cheaper and not as good since the
vast majority of the engineers are at Red Hat.

(My understanding is Oracle Linux is kind of similar, but with more
engineers.  And some tie-in with Oracle's other products.  Oracle does
some innovation in their Linux too.)

So these models seem quite different, based on the amount of
engineering.

BTW small doses of RHEL are "free" (as in beer).  But you have to
register and I assume that the product phones home to make sure you
don't exceed the limits.

I like to think that my Linux installations don't phone home.  Of
course that is false because they do phone home for updates.  And all
web browsers spray DNA everywhere.
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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2023-01-31 15:45, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

Unless you have requirements beyond my idea of normal, you qualify for the
free tier of Ubuntu Pro (infra-only) Desktop.

I saw that reference to "infra-only". What does that mean?

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that
| distract the mouth-breathers, and
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | that's why we're powerful"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: William Park via talk 

| When I click "Get Ubuntu Pro now" button, I see $500/year at the bottom, which
| is a bit too much for Linux.  At least, Apple owns the hardware and software.
| But, with Linux, you have to get the hardware yourself, and install the
| software yourself.

If you click Dhaval's link, it is all laid out clearly.


Unless you have requirements beyond my idea of normal, you qualify for the 
free tier of Ubuntu Pro (infra-only) Desktop.  I assume that a Desktop can 
act as a server -- that's always been true.

It doesn't really say that you are not allowed to have dozen's of 
machines.  But Stewart says that there is a limit of five.  Stewart is 
usually right so this document is suspect.

Ohh.  Maybe the dashes mean "not available".  I thought that they meant 
"no charge".  Not so clear after all.

| On 2023-01-31 09:22, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
| > I should really stop running Ubuntu for the good of my health. This morning,
| > my various Ubuntu systems announced that a whole bunch of packages would be
| > unavailable unless I registered for Ubuntu Pro — https://ubuntu.com/pro
| > 
| > 
| > Ubuntu Pro is free-of-charge for "personal" users for up to five machines.
| > Otherwise, pay up. I didn't see rates listed: you have to contact Canonical
| > to find out. Whenever I see that, I expect an Oracle-style shakedown in the
| > absence of transparency.

Looking at Stewart's link  ...

If I remember correctly, free Ubuntu LTS was supposed to have 10 years of 
support.  It now seems to be down to 5.  So they've taken something away 
that they promised (RH did too when it chopped off CentOS.)

"Reduce your average CVE exposure time from 98 days to 1 day with
expanded CVE patching, ten-years security maintenance, optional
support and operations for the full stack of open-source
applications."

Really?  Ubuntu security updates have been that bad?


I don't really know what the Ubuntu Universe is.  It seems to be very
big -- ten times the number of packages in Ubuntu Main.  The logo
ranks suggest some pretty important things are only in Universe:

Python, Go, Perl, Docker, Ansible, Rust.

Maybe base customers get Universe but with no promised maintenance.
That sounds like a legal liability if they know about a security
problem, and have fixed it, but not for LTS customers.---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[William Park via talk]

When I click "Get Ubuntu Pro now" button, I see $500/year at the bottom, 
which is a bit too much for Linux.  At least, Apple owns the hardware 
and software.  But, with Linux, you have to get the hardware yourself, 
and install the software yourself.


On 2023-01-31 09:22, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
I should really stop running Ubuntu for the good of my health. This 
morning, my various Ubuntu systems announced that a whole bunch of 
packages would be unavailable unless I registered for Ubuntu Pro — 
https://ubuntu.com/pro 


Ubuntu Pro is free-of-charge for "personal" users for up to five 
machines. Otherwise, pay up. I didn't see rates listed: you have to 
contact Canonical to find out. Whenever I see that, I expect an 
Oracle-style shakedown in the absence of transparency.

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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

It's become interesting to follow what appears to be a re-invention of the
model taking place as CIQ  seeks to be for Rocky Linux
what Canonical was for Ubuntu (hopefully, better!). There are, to be sure,
significant differences between the two pairs' interrelationships; but it
will be interesting to see the differences in approaches between the two.
Might even make it worth exploring the Red Hat Universe again.

If I want to leave Ubuntu-world for my (nominally-headless) server, what
would be the path of least resistance? Debian?

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56


On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 11:40 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> | From: Dhaval Giani via talk 
>
> | https://ubuntu.com/pricing/pro
>
> Thanks.  That helps clarify things.
>
> It is kind of tough trying to make a business as a Linux distro.  And we
> all benefit from those who try.  Some businesses are more open than
> others, possibly because they can afford to be.  We need several to
> thrive.
>
> If all followed the debian model, I don't think Linux would be nearly as
> rich an ecosystem.
>
> I have never really liked Canonical -- some bad vibes that may be my
> problem, not theirs.  But they have enriched us all.  They've made Linux
> easier for ordinary folks.
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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Dhaval Giani via talk 

| https://ubuntu.com/pricing/pro

Thanks.  That helps clarify things.

It is kind of tough trying to make a business as a Linux distro.  And we 
all benefit from those who try.  Some businesses are more open than 
others, possibly because they can afford to be.  We need several to 
thrive.

If all followed the debian model, I don't think Linux would be nearly as 
rich an ecosystem.

I have never really liked Canonical -- some bad vibes that may be my 
problem, not theirs.  But they have enriched us all.  They've made Linux 
easier for ordinary folks.
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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:22 AM Stewart Russell via talk
 wrote:
>
> I should really stop running Ubuntu for the good of my health. This morning, 
> my various Ubuntu systems announced that a whole bunch of packages would be 
> unavailable unless I registered for Ubuntu Pro — https://ubuntu.com/pro
>
> Ubuntu Pro is free-of-charge for "personal" users for up to five machines. 
> Otherwise, pay up. I didn't see rates listed: you have to contact Canonical 
> to find out. Whenever I see that, I expect an Oracle-style shakedown in the 
> absence of transparency.
>
> The following packages seem to be under 'esmapps', only available through 
> Ubuntu Pro:
>
> ansible imagemagick imagemagick-6-common imagemagick-6.q16
> libimage-magick-perl libimage-magick-q16-perl libjs-jquery-ui
> libmagick++-6-headers libmagick++-6.q16-8 libmagick++-6.q16-dev
> libmagickcore-6-headers libmagickcore-6.q16-6 libmagick++-dev
> libmagickwand-6-headers libmagickwand-6.q16-6 libmaven3-core-java
> libopenexr25 libopenexr-dev libpython2.7-dbg libpython2.7-minimal
> libpython2.7-stdlib python2.7 python2.7-dbg python2.7-minimal
>
> Ubuntu Pro also seems to require snapd, my least favourite Canonical 
> 'innovation'. On the system I have it blocked completely it tried and failed 
> to install, hopefully with no hilarious side-effects.
>
> Anyone else experiencing this? I suppose I should've seen it coming with all 
> the little messages that Ubuntu had been peppering into my apt chatter every 
> day.
>

About 5 years ago I spent some few hundred hours investigated lxd - -
- - so I was introduced to snapd as well.

I declined that 'joy' and it was incredibly painful to revert - - - -
was only possible for me by a total
reinstall - - - - a la M$ world, which I still resent. At the time I
could think of no reason as to why
canonical would want to force a captive audience for their updates.
Your news in the other boot
dropping. Mr Mark is (and has been) really really wanting to monetize
his baby - - - - and he wants an at least
Ellison sized grab bag for all 'his' work.

I returned to Debian and after frustration with systemd am now
presently with Devuan.
So far so good - - - - but then I'm not any kind of serious 'under the
hood tinkerer' with
Linux - - - - so ymmv - - - - I'd be dumping Ubuntu but then I don't
like being shoved into
a corner and told what to do very much.

HTH
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Re: [GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[Dhaval Giani via talk]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:22 AM Stewart Russell via talk
 wrote:
>
> I should really stop running Ubuntu for the good of my health. This morning, 
> my various Ubuntu systems announced that a whole bunch of packages would be 
> unavailable unless I registered for Ubuntu Pro — https://ubuntu.com/pro
>
> Ubuntu Pro is free-of-charge for "personal" users for up to five machines. 
> Otherwise, pay up. I didn't see rates listed: you have to contact Canonical 
> to find out. Whenever I see that, I expect an Oracle-style shakedown in the 
> absence of transparency.
>

https://ubuntu.com/pricing/pro
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[GTALUG] Ubuntu Pro - a new, non-optional walled garden from Canonical

[Stewart Russell via talk]

I should really stop running Ubuntu for the good of my health. This
morning, my various Ubuntu systems announced that a whole bunch of packages
would be unavailable unless I registered for Ubuntu Pro —
https://ubuntu.com/pro

Ubuntu Pro is free-of-charge for "personal" users for up to five machines.
Otherwise, pay up. I didn't see rates listed: you have to contact Canonical
to find out. Whenever I see that, I expect an Oracle-style shakedown in the
absence of transparency.

The following packages seem to be under 'esmapps', only available through
Ubuntu Pro:

ansible imagemagick imagemagick-6-common imagemagick-6.q16
libimage-magick-perl libimage-magick-q16-perl libjs-jquery-ui
libmagick++-6-headers libmagick++-6.q16-8 libmagick++-6.q16-dev
libmagickcore-6-headers libmagickcore-6.q16-6 libmagick++-dev
libmagickwand-6-headers libmagickwand-6.q16-6 libmaven3-core-java
libopenexr25 libopenexr-dev libpython2.7-dbg libpython2.7-minimal
libpython2.7-stdlib python2.7 python2.7-dbg python2.7-minimal

Ubuntu Pro also seems to require snapd, my least favourite Canonical
'innovation'. On the system I have it blocked completely it tried and
failed to install, hopefully with no hilarious side-effects.

Anyone else experiencing this? I suppose I should've seen it coming with
all the little messages that Ubuntu had been peppering into my apt chatter
every day.

Yours in absurdity,
 Stewart
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