Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Ijaaz A. Ullah 

| Take a look at: https://www.dellrefurbished.ca/desktop-computers

Thanks for the link.

I do look at that site once in a while but it has been years since I last 
bought something from them.  They don't have these 1 liter boxes very 
often but they have three "micro" computers right now (oops: one now).  
Those are not cheaper than the ThinkCentres I've been looking at.  The 
$179 3050 isn't too bad (only one available; gone now).

To be honest, I don't need any more than I already have.  But I love 
window shopping.

I recently bought a couple of $~300 ThinkCentre M75q Tiny computers -- 
much newer.  Intel processor improvements between 4th gen and 10th gen are 
not very impressive.  The dirt cheap units seem to be 7th gen or earlier 
(probably due to the looming end of of support from Windows).

I posted the message to point out to people just how cheap a useful box 
could be.

| I actually use 10zig thin clients at work as Teradici (HP Anyware) clients,
| but we've since swapped to these <$200 SFF machines that work just as well.

Yeah.  I don't know much about those and I doubt that they are useful to 
me.
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Karen Lewellen via talk 

| Hi Stewart,
| Your comment is no doubt true.  however, if one is building a setup for a
| simple accommodation, given for  Linux and some other systems the older
| distros, or the 32 bit ones might actually be better.
| Depends on the goal does it not?
| Consider the freedos project.
| www.freedos.org
| Just a thought,

Right.

So far, all x86-64 processors can also run 32-bit programs.

But UEFI firmware comes in 32-bit or 64-bit.  So the
almost-nonexistent 32-bit OS that runs under UEFI is pretty much out
of luck.

But almost all 32-bit OSes (like FreeDOS) booted in MBR / "legacy
mode", not UEFI.  They work fine when booted this way.

But some locked-down devices don't support "legacy mode".  This will
surely become common for all device in the future but it doesn't seem
to be yet.  For example, the Lenovo ThinkCentre devices do support
legacy mode booting.

Details:

Examples of 32-bit x86 UEFI systems:

- the very first Intel-based Macs.  Their Intel Core Duo processor was
  32-bit only.  But their UEFI implementations were screwy anyway.
  Avoid.  Apple shortly went to 64-bit with the Core 2 Duo.

- some x86 machines were designed to compete with ARM devices (on
  price and capabilities) and not eat into the market for
  higher-priced X86 devices.  Through licensing terms, Intel and
  Microsoft attempted this anti-competitive feat.

  These devices used Intel x86 Atom chips that could run 64-bit code
  but had 32-bit UEFI-only firmware (no legacy).  The intention was to
  limit them to 32-bit Windows.  Sneaky Linux folks managed to run
  64-bit kernels and userland on top of 32-bit UEFI.

  I have a few of these devices, all getting old since Intel threw in
  the towel on this fight many years ago.

  Example devices: Dell Venue 8 pro tablet, Asus Transformer T100 TAF.

Enabling legacy mode:

This can be tricky.  You have to go into the firmware setup screen.
This is usually called the BIOS setup screen but that is a misnomer:
under UEFI there is no BIOS, only firmware.

The actual setting changes required are odd and idiosyncratic --
different for different machines.  Here are some hints:

- Secure Boot and MBR booting don't co-exist well.  Turn off Secure
  Boot.

- UEFI booting is the opposite of "Legacy Booting".  Select legacy
  booting.

- enable "CSM" (Compatibility Support Module).  This is the thing in
  UEFI firmware that emulates BIOS system calls.  Some firmware
  requires you to enable this to even see the other required options.

- the boot order screen may talk about UEFI and Legacy targets.  Make
  sure you enable Legacy.

Finding all this stuff may seem like the classic game "Adventure".
I'm currently having trouble booting FreeDOS on a computer I just got.
I haven't figured it out but I haven't given up.
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

Hi Stewart,
Your comment is no doubt true.  however, if one is building a setup for a 
simple accommodation, given for  Linux and some other systems the older 
distros, or the 32 bit ones might actually be better.

Depends on the goal does it not?
Consider the freedos project.
www.freedos.org
Just a thought,
Karen



On Wed, 26 Apr 2023, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:


On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53???AM Ansar Mohammed via talk 
wrote:


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475

$20/unit with shipping



That's got a VIA C7 inside. It's a very slow 32-bit processor that was
superseded 15 years ago.

Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk 
| Do'h
| wrong link
| 
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/125888386765?mkcid=16=1=711-127632-2357-0=tpIqUIMdSAS=2047675=_ver=artemis=COPY

That's different.

Better:

- five for US$69 + US$39.90 shipping.  Close to $150.

- Atom N2807 processor (launched Q1 2014, much later than the Via C7).


- one USB 3.1 port

- 4G eMMC (cannot be expanded, so not good enough)

- 2G RAM (soldered so it cannot be expanded)

- for the very ambitious: there is an unpopulated mSATA area on the PCB.

Still not capable enough for me to play with.  I already have more
powerful devices getting lonely on my shelves.  For example, a couple
of these:

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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 3:16 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

>
> This one is described here.  It is the best one listed on this page.
> 
>
>
Note, though, that parkytowers doesn't seem to have been updated in several
years, and didn't typically review machines that cost the author more than
about $50. Any of the more powerful/recent/expensive articles seem to come
from third parties.

It was a curse of the Raspberry Pi 4 that, just as it started to dominate
the thin client market, the chip shortage did for its supply
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Stewart Russell via talk 

| On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53 AM Ansar Mohammed via talk 
| wrote:
| 
| > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475
| >
| > $20/unit with shipping

Interesting.

The listing says US$84.94 + US43.97 shipping.  A little more that
$200.  Much worse that two M93p units!

But I know that one can stumble on much better deals for these.
You've got to know what you are buying too.

| That's got a VIA C7 inside. It's a very slow 32-bit processor that was
| superseded 15 years ago.

This one is described here.  It is the best one listed on this page.


I don't remember for sure, but I think that the C7 is missing some
instructions that current kernels require.  CMOV?  I might be wrong:
it could be that most distros compile kernels this way but that the C7
is still supported upstream

Is the video controller supported by X or Wayland?

No USB 3.x

1G of RAM is tight these days.
2G of flash isn't enough for anything I'd want to run locally.---
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53 AM Ansar Mohammed via talk 
wrote:

> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475
>
> $20/unit with shipping
>

That's got a VIA C7 inside. It's a very slow 32-bit processor that was
superseded 15 years ago.

 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Ansar Mohammed via talk]

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475

$20/unit with shipping


On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 5:43 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier  wrote:

> | From: Ansar Mohammed via talk 
> |
> | Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs.  Used Dells/HPs are the most
> | prevalent and quite inexpensive.
> | The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last
> | 10 years come with 1080p and premium sound.
> | Parkytowers is a pretty good repository
> | https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/
>
> Where are they quite inexpensive?
>
> A quick search for "thin client" on ebay.ca didn't seem to result in
> anything seemed cheaper and better than the M93p Tiny.
>
> I know some people have found treasures but I didn't notice any.---
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Ijaaz A. Ullah via talk]

Take a look at: https://www.dellrefurbished.ca/desktop-computers

I actually use 10zig thin clients at work as Teradici (HP Anyware) clients,
but we've since swapped to these <$200 SFF machines that work just as well.

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 5:43 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: Ansar Mohammed via talk 
> |
> | Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs.  Used Dells/HPs are the most
> | prevalent and quite inexpensive.
> | The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last
> | 10 years come with 1080p and premium sound.
> | Parkytowers is a pretty good repository
> | https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/
>
> Where are they quite inexpensive?
>
> A quick search for "thin client" on ebay.ca didn't seem to result in
> anything seemed cheaper and better than the M93p Tiny.
>
> I know some people have found treasures but I didn't notice any.---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk 
| 
| Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs.  Used Dells/HPs are the most
| prevalent and quite inexpensive.
| The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last
| 10 years come with 1080p and premium sound.
| Parkytowers is a pretty good repository
| https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/

Where are they quite inexpensive?

A quick search for "thin client" on ebay.ca didn't seem to result in 
anything seemed cheaper and better than the M93p Tiny.

I know some people have found treasures but I didn't notice any.---
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Ansar Mohammed via talk]

Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs.  Used Dells/HPs are the most
prevalent and quite inexpensive.
The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last
10 years come with 1080p and premium sound.
Parkytowers is a pretty good repository
https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/


On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 12:04 PM Alex Kink via talk  wrote:

> By "thin client" do you mean the ultra small form factor (USFF) PC or an
> actual client (such as Dell Wyse, which is basically a RDP/Citrix/VNC
> client and not a stand alone computer)?
>
> I hope this is not against the mailing list rules, but I've been using
> these guys out of Burlington for years to buy such used hardware. They have
> several USFF machines available from both Lenovo and Dell. They categorize
> them as TINY in the "Form factor" column.
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-hKAmQahPcEV_h5mwflWGLWCQtqkKOBDbsakv4ee2u0/edit?authkey=CM3vpdoP=en=CM3vpdoP=en#gid=0
>
> On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:05, Ansar Mohammed via talk 
> wrote:
>
> Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:35 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
> talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
>
>> | From: Stewart C. Russell via talk 
>>
>> | * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short
>> supply
>> | right now; and
>> |
>> | * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux
>> | computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I
>> think
>> | you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]
>>
>> There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers
>> available, starting at $100.  These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are
>> great for Linux.  Built like tanks.  I have had three for a long time.
>> <
>> https://forums.redflagdeals.com/bestbuy-marketplace-vendor-x-dynamic-uniway-refurb-good-lenovo-m93p-tiny-pc-w10p-intel-i5-4570t-101-00-8-gb-240-gb-ssd-2607386/
>> >
>>
>> For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes.  Even smaller than
>> the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor.  The Intel N95 and N100 are recent
>> Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores.  They seem to
>> be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture.  Not
>> built like tanks.  Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know
>> enough to recommend them):
>> <
>> https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Desktop-3200U-Working-Computer/dp/B09QSBCCC1/ref=sr_1_11
>> >
>> <
>> https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Generation-Processors-Support-60Hz11/dp/B09MCZBZP6/ref=sr_1_5
>> >
>>
>> These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they
>> sure are no-fuss to use.  Standard Linux distros just work.
>>
>> Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of
>> audio systems are critical but not easy to specify.  And testing is
>> potentially dangerous.  So it would be foolish to recommend anything
>> new to you.  Especially something horrible!
>> ---
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>>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Alex Kink via talk]

By "thin client" do you mean the ultra small form factor (USFF) PC or an actual 
client (such as Dell Wyse, which is basically a RDP/Citrix/VNC client and not a 
stand alone computer)?

I hope this is not against the mailing list rules, but I've been using these 
guys out of Burlington for years to buy such used hardware. They have several 
USFF machines available from both Lenovo and Dell. They categorize them as TINY 
in the "Form factor" column.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-hKAmQahPcEV_h5mwflWGLWCQtqkKOBDbsakv4ee2u0/edit?authkey=CM3vpdoP=en=CM3vpdoP=en#gid=0

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:05, Ansar Mohammed via talk  wrote:
> 
> Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes. 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:35 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk  > wrote:
>> | From: Stewart C. Russell via talk > >
>> 
>> | * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply
>> | right now; and
>> | 
>> | * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux
>> | computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think
>> | you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]
>> 
>> There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers
>> available, starting at $100.  These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are
>> great for Linux.  Built like tanks.  I have had three for a long time.
>> 
>> 
>> For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes.  Even smaller than
>> the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor.  The Intel N95 and N100 are recent
>> Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores.  They seem to
>> be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture.  Not
>> built like tanks.  Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know
>> enough to recommend them):
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they
>> sure are no-fuss to use.  Standard Linux distros just work.
>> 
>> Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of
>> audio systems are critical but not easy to specify.  And testing is
>> potentially dangerous.  So it would be foolish to recommend anything
>> new to you.  Especially something horrible!
>> ---
>> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org 
>> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk 

| Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes.

Do you have a link to an offer that you think is worthy?
I'd be interested to see what they are.
Are they "Wyse" branded?

(I see several apparently bad choices when I search for "dell thin
client" with duckduckgo.com.)

A lot of "thin clients" used to be too resource-constrained and
intentionally hard to expand.  (The only thin client I have is a
Sun Ray 270!  It is a museum piece -- I've never turned it on.  I
imagine that it requires an infrastructure that I don't have.)
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Ansar Mohammed via talk]

Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:35 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: Stewart C. Russell via talk 
>
> | * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short
> supply
> | right now; and
> |
> | * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux
> | computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I
> think
> | you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]
>
> There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers
> available, starting at $100.  These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are
> great for Linux.  Built like tanks.  I have had three for a long time.
> <
> https://forums.redflagdeals.com/bestbuy-marketplace-vendor-x-dynamic-uniway-refurb-good-lenovo-m93p-tiny-pc-w10p-intel-i5-4570t-101-00-8-gb-240-gb-ssd-2607386/
> >
>
> For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes.  Even smaller than
> the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor.  The Intel N95 and N100 are recent
> Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores.  They seem to
> be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture.  Not
> built like tanks.  Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know
> enough to recommend them):
> <
> https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Desktop-3200U-Working-Computer/dp/B09QSBCCC1/ref=sr_1_11
> >
> <
> https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Generation-Processors-Support-60Hz11/dp/B09MCZBZP6/ref=sr_1_5
> >
>
> These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they
> sure are no-fuss to use.  Standard Linux distros just work.
>
> Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of
> audio systems are critical but not easy to specify.  And testing is
> potentially dangerous.  So it would be foolish to recommend anything
> new to you.  Especially something horrible!
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk 

| On 24/04/2023 02.35, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
| > There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers
| > available, starting at $100.

| These are neat, but I was thinking of a portable device like the later DECTalk
| boxes. Still, that's a heck of a deal. I may replace my 2013 Samsung laptop
| with one for the "Do I have to?" Windows moments.

1. There are many choices of these off-lease ThinkCentre computers.
In that RFD thread I pointed out a $~150 choice that I thought might
be worth the extra fifty dollars.

2. These little computers are easy to stick on a shelf.  But when you use 
   them for Windows, you need a monitor, keyboard, and mouse.  Don't 
   forget that (I know you wouldn't have; it's a figure of speach).  But 
   you probably have those laying around that you can temporarily 
   repurpose.  But it is a reason to consider a cheap old notebook 
   instead.

3. This is tax time.  Exactly when I need Windows.  I'm using one of my 
   M93p's for exactly that purpose.  For confidential work like that, I 
   prefer a desktop so that I don't accidentally take it out of my house.  
   Besides, a large screen helps for tax-related work.

4. I don't find off-lease notebooks as attractive.  Enough things have 
   advanced over the years that they just aren't as useful as cheap newer 
   notebooks.  I have bought used notebooks but not that aged.

5. In some ways, the best time to have bought off-lease stuff was when the 
   Intel Core 10th generation was current: the progress between the fourth 
   and tenth generation was so slow that you didn't lose a lot being 
   behind.  My impression is that the 11th and 12th were significant 
   steps.  The 13th is better still but I don't know how much.  
   Unfortunately business machines tend to ignore AMD.  We do have Lenovo 
   ThinkCentre M75q Tiny computers which are AMD-based.
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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[William Park via talk]

Thanks Hugh,  I'm trying to think of use case at work.

On 2023-04-24 02:35, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
...

There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers
available, starting at $100.  These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are
great for Linux.  Built like tanks.  I have had three for a long time.


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Re: [GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 24/04/2023 02.35, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers
available, starting at $100.
These are neat, but I was thinking of a portable device like the later 
DECTalk boxes. Still, that's a heck of a deal. I may replace my 2013 
Samsung laptop with one for the "Do I have to?" Windows moments.


 Stewart
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[GTALUG] Cheap small computers [was Re: DECTalk TTS in source for Linux]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk 

| * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply
| right now; and
| 
| * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux
| computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think
| you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]

There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers
available, starting at $100.  These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are
great for Linux.  Built like tanks.  I have had three for a long time.


For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes.  Even smaller than
the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor.  The Intel N95 and N100 are recent
Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores.  They seem to
be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture.  Not
built like tanks.  Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know
enough to recommend them):



These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they
sure are no-fuss to use.  Standard Linux distros just work.

Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of
audio systems are critical but not easy to specify.  And testing is
potentially dangerous.  So it would be foolish to recommend anything
new to you.  Especially something horrible!
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