Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 10:58:23AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> I do realize that the DSL modem provides a dial up "line" in parallel with
> the high-bandwidth DSL link.

The DSL modem has nothing to do with your phone line working as a regular
phone line.

> However, there is still a difference between: 1. a telephone link over a
> twisted pair of physical copper wires, and 2. an emulation of a telephone
> link, over a DSL modem.

No no no.  DSL runs on a phone line at the same time as the normal
phone does.  DSL filters make sure they don't mess with each other,
because they run in different frequency ranges.  Adding DSL to a phone line
does not change anything about how you use it for normal phones or dialup.
My parents have had their DSL on their fax line for many years, and the
fax is perfectly happy, and a fax is just another modem essentially.
DSL doesn't go near the low frequencies that the phone line uses for
voice calls (and hence modem calls too).

There is no emulation going on.

> So, I prefer not to make the switch from dial up to DSL, until after the new
> Linux PC is working using a dial up modem with the current plain copper
> twisted-pair connection. While the Win XP system continues to work for live
> production Internet use, as always, via dial up modem over the twisted pair.

You can keep dialup as long as you want after adding DSL to your line,
they have nothing to do with each other.

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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 08:37:46PM -0400, Loui Chang via talk wrote:
> Yes. Like Ivan states you will still have traditional phone service on the 
> same
> exact lines as DSL and nothing needs to be changed. Except with modern VDSL2 
> you
> don't even need a filter to separate phone and DSL, though getting a POTS
> splitter can improve the DSL quality.

I have never seen a VDSL2 connection that didn't use a splitter/filter.
I suppose it could be done but I never even looked into it.  It seems
to work well when split at least.  Quality signal on the line is nice
to have after all.

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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Loui Chang via talk]

On Mon 01 Aug 2016 16:48 +, Ivan Avery Frey via talk wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016, 10:58 Steve Petrie,
> > I do realize that the DSL modem provides a dial up "line" in parallel
> > with the high-bandwidth DSL link.
> >
> > However, there is still a difference between: 1. a telephone link over a
> > twisted pair of physical copper wires, and 2. an emulation of a
> > telephone link, over a DSL modem.
> 
> The DSL modem does not provide a dial up "line" in parallel with the DSL
> link. DSL operates over the same wires as the traditional phone service.
> One does need a small filter to prevent the DSL signals from interfering
> with the use of the telephone link.

Yes. Like Ivan states you will still have traditional phone service on the same
exact lines as DSL and nothing needs to be changed. Except with modern VDSL2 you
don't even need a filter to separate phone and DSL, though getting a POTS
splitter can improve the DSL quality.

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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[James Knott via talk]

On 08/01/2016 12:48 PM, Ivan Avery Frey via talk wrote:
> One does need a small filter to prevent the DSL signals from
> interfering with the use of the telephone link. 

Actually, it's the other way around.  The filter keeps the phone from
interfering with the ADSL signal.  ADSL uses frequencies that are well
beyond the range a phone is capable of reproducing and well above hearing.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_digital_subscriber_line
"26.075 kHz  to 137.825 kHz is used
for upstream communication, while 138 kHz – 1104 kHz is used for
downstream communication"

The ADSL filter is a low pass device, which keeps the telephone set from
affecting the ADSL signal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSL_filter
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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Loui,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Loui Chang" <louipc@gmail.com>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC



On Sat 30 Jul 2016 01:26 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Maybe I'm just a Nervous Nellie, but I would rather try first to get 
the
Linux PC to work with a dial-up modem, so I can continue to use 
dial-up on

the Windows XP PC for my live production email operations.


There is no need. You can use dial up and DSL simulaneously. Thus you 
can keep

using the Windows PC and dialup at the same time as a Linux PC on DSL.


I do realize that the DSL modem provides a dial up "line" in parallel 
with the high-bandwidth DSL link.


However, there is still a difference between: 1. a telephone link over a 
twisted pair of physical copper wires, and 2. an emulation of a 
telephone link, over a DSL modem.


So, I prefer not to make the switch from dial up to DSL, until after the 
new Linux PC is working using a dial up modem with the current plain 
copper twisted-pair connection. While the Win XP system continues to 
work for live production Internet use, as always, via dial up modem over 
the twisted pair.


* * *
* * *

Based on Russell Reiter's advice that a (e.g. USRobotics) USB dial up 
modem looks promising for use with Linux, and based on my subsequent my 
research into this USB modem idea, I am pretty confident that a USB dial 
up modem will work on Linux debian 8.


So the plan will be:

0. Continue to use the existing Win XP PC dial up modem as usual, 
connecting to the dial up ISP over the existing twisted copper pair 
telephone landline.


1. Get the new Linux PC working with a USB dial up modem, connecting to 
the dial up ISP over the same existing dial up twisted copper pair 
telephone landline.


2, Migrate email folders and email operations (sending, receiving via 
POP3) from the Win XP PC to the Linux PC, while the new Linux PC uses 
the USB dial up modem for its Internet connection. Migrate the mail 
folders using a direct high-speed Ethernet crossover cable connection 
between the Win XP PC and the Linux PC.


3. Upgrade the telco twisted copper pair line to DSL service from plain 
landline telephone service.


4. Get the new Linux PC to connect to the (DSL) ISP, using the DSL line 
service, instead of using the USB dial up modem and dial up ISP.


5. Try (as Loui suggests) using the dial up modem on the Windows XP PC, 
through the DSL modem's voice phone link, to connect to the dial up ISP.



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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Loui Chang via talk]

On Sat 30 Jul 2016 01:26 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> Maybe I'm just a Nervous Nellie, but I would rather try first to get the
> Linux PC to work with a dial-up modem, so I can continue to use dial-up on
> the Windows XP PC for my live production email operations.

There is no need. You can use dial up and DSL simulaneously. Thus you can keep
using the Windows PC and dialup at the same time as a Linux PC on DSL.
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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC


On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:50:00PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via 
talk wrote:
Mainly because I use dial-upon the Win XP system, and I don't want 
the
hassle of changing it to use DSL, before I get the new Linux PC. 
Also,

I'm curious to see if the experience with dial-up is better on Linux
than on Win XP.


I can't imagine anything that would make it better on Linux.  Web 
pages

are simply not designed with low bandwidth in mind these days.



I agree that dial-up is painfully slow loading many web pages. My 
experience used to be that web pages loaded slowly over dial-up. But 
they always used to load successfully. Over the years there's been a 
gradual degradation in page load reliability until today, when far too 
many pages just fail to load completely on the first attempt and I have 
to retry the load. My ISP (understandably) is not interested in finding 
out the cause of these problems.



I do plan, after the Linux PC is operational, to switch to DSL.


Well in that case, it would seem a waste to buy a modem that works 
with
linux at all.  If you already have one, that's different.  Dialup 
modems

are not that cheap these days due to lack of demand.



Here's the complication that motivates me to first, get a dial-up modem 
working on the new Linux PC, and then, switch the Internet link from 
dial-up to e.g. DSL.


Right now, I run my Internet life (email, web browsing) on the Win XP PC 
using dial-up.


If I switch to DSL before I set up the new Linux PC, then I'm going to 
have to update the Win XP PC to work with the DSL modem (e.g. seeing it 
as an Ethernet router). I really am not keen to mess around with 
changing the Windows XP PC to DSL from dial-up, when I'm planning to 
quit using the Win XP PC anyway.


Maybe I'm just a Nervous Nellie, but I would rather try first to get the 
Linux PC to work with a dial-up modem, so I can continue to use dial-up 
on the Windows XP PC for my live production email operations.


Once I have switched to using the new Linux PC for email and web 
browsing via dial-up modem, then I can comfortably upgrade my telco 
twisted copper pair from dial-up to DSL, and I only have to cope with 
getting the new Linux PC to work with DSL. And never bother to switch 
the Win XP PC over to use DSL.




--
Len Sorensen 


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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:50:00PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> Mainly because I use dial-upon the Win XP system, and I don't want the
> hassle of changing it to use DSL, before I get the new Linux PC. Also,
> I'm curious to see if the experience with dial-up is better on Linux
> than on Win XP.

I can't imagine anything that would make it better on Linux.  Web pages
are simply not designed with low bandwidth in mind these days.

> I do plan, after the Linux PC is operational, to switch to DSL.

Well in that case, it would seem a waste to buy a modem that works with
linux at all.  If you already have one, that's different.  Dialup modems
are not that cheap these days due to lack of demand.

> Others have mentioned this too. Makes good sense.
> 
> I will change the spec to 16 GB and assure expandability to 32 GB.

16GB is good these days.

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Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Stan,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Stan Witkowski" <s...@stanwitkowski.com>

To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 12:02 AM
Subject: GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC





I suggest:







2. Unless you have a specific need (MUST HAVE backup for stock market
trading, for example),
   don't install a dial-up modem.  Why?   (Everything is Internet
based...)



Mainly because I use dial-upon the Win XP system, and I don't want the
hassle of changing it to use DSL, before I get the new Linux PC. Also,
I'm curious to see if the experience with dial-up is better on Linux
than on Win XP.

I do plan, after the Linux PC is operational, to switch to DSL.


3. Install as much RAM as you can afford.  (This also allows the use
of a ramdisk,
   which can give you VASTLY faster access.)
   Personally I would not build a system with under 16 GB RAM, and
better, 32 GB.



Others have mentioned this too. Makes good sense.

I will change the spec to 16 GB and assure expandability to 32 GB.



re:
Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive
   750GB 3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache;

IMPORTANT:  I used Western Digital Green drives (and now their
replacement, the Blue)
ONLY AS BACKUP DRIVES!!!  These are   "environmentally
friendly",
meaning they will spin down down after a short interval
(2 - 3 minutes)
if there is no access to them, to save on electricity.
THIS IS BAD IN A WORKING SYSTEM!!!

They are perfect as external **ARCHIVE** drives (you write
a bunch of stuff
to them for archival use once an hour, say), but as daily
use drives
they can be a disaster.

Example: The drive is written to, and spins down.  A few
minutes later
 it is accessed again, and so spins up.
 Down/up/down/up.

Better: Western Digital Black drives = more expensize, but also
tougher, etc.



Advice worth it's wait in gold !!

I'll look at the Western Digital Black drives.


Stan.

(I'm moving in a week and hence am surrounded by packing and chaos
, so any
 replies may be spotty...)



I saw no "spots" ...

Please accept my extra thanks for taking time out from your move, to
advise me.



(I'll follow your progress - may go the same or similar route at some
point later.)



Stay tuned ...

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