Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 5 announced (shipping starting near the end of October)

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2023-09-28 15:54, William Park via talk wrote:

At work, we're using Odroid.  Have you considered them?


I do work for someone who is using NanoPi boards. I also have an OrangePi 
board that I'm evaluating as a replacement for an RPi board in another product.


There are so many boards from which to choose that have "Pi" in the name 
along with a lot of other similar form factor boards. Prices can vary quite 
a bit depending on features. Some cost quite a bit more than one of the RPi 
boards.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that
| distract the mouth-breathers, and
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | that's why we're powerful"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 5 announced (shipping starting near the end of October)

[Mark Prosser via talk]

+1 for Odroid. But I need to upgrade my XU4's to something Arm64 soon.

On Thu, Sept 28, 2023, 3:54 p.m. William Park via talk 
wrote:

> At work, we're using Odroid.  Have you considered them?
> --
>
> On 2023-09-28 14:22, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 10:39 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >
> >
> > For me the huge question would be availability.
> > If I can only buy them one at a time the freight costs are absolutely
> > stupid - - -
> > its one of the reasons I've been working at finding a good alternative.
> >
> > Regards
> > ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 5 announced (shipping starting near the end of October)

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2023-09-28 11:39, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:




It does seem interesting. I watched a video where someone gave a detailed 
breakdown of what is on the board. I won't be rushing out to buy one. I 
already have too many RPi boards.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that
| distract the mouth-breathers, and
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | that's why we're powerful"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 5 announced (shipping starting near the end of October)

[Colin McGregor via talk]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 11:39 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
 wrote:
>
> 
>
> Faster.  Some new capabilities.  US$5 increase in base price over original
> Raspberry Pi.

A feature dropped was the 3.5mm audio out jack. So for audio from the
Raspberry Pi 5 you will need it from the HDMI, Bluetooth, or via USB.
On the Pi 4 / Pi 400 I have played around with Bluetooth audio, and
while there may be some optimization that I missed, my experience was
that the audio with games lagged what was happening on screen. For
USB, I've played with USB sound cards (giving both audio out and
microphone in) with an eye towards video conferencing and found those
satisfactory. Also, as long as you don't need high volume, a low end
USB speaker (like: https://www.adafruit.com/product/3369 ) works well.
Also, I've used a VGA monitor with a Pi 400 using one of these HDMI to
VGA adapters that lets you connect conventional speakers, which works
well ( 
https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_3931_4363_id=121160=u7t9tdh0opp5utj2bcb3s83t23
).

So, one real but minor disappointment aside, everything else looks
good, and I do have a Pi 5 pre-ordered :-) .

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 5 announced (shipping starting near the end of October)

[William Park via talk]

At work, we're using Odroid.  Have you considered them?
--

On 2023-09-28 14:22, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 10:39 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
 wrote:






For me the huge question would be availability.
If I can only buy them one at a time the freight costs are absolutely
stupid - - -
its one of the reasons I've been working at finding a good alternative.

Regards
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 5 announced (shipping starting near the end of October)

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 10:39 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
 wrote:
>
> 


For me the huge question would be availability.
If I can only buy them one at a time the freight costs are absolutely
stupid - - -
its one of the reasons I've been working at finding a good alternative.

Regards
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[GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 5 announced (shipping starting near the end of October)

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

Faster.  Some new capabilities.  US$5 increase in base price over original 
Raspberry Pi.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Starter Kit - Ubiquiti Unifi controller software

[James Knott via talk]

On 2021-05-10 9:01 a.m., Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

On 2021-05-09 10:51 a.m., James Knott via talk wrote:

I've been considering (because I have way too much time on my hands
these days) getting a Raspberry Pi to run my Unifi access point
controller software on.  I would be doing this with Ubuntu or Raspian
Linux.  I currently run the controller on my desktop system (openSUSE).
I assume a kit like this would be suitable.

https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-4-starter-kit.html

Short answer: yes, maybe. You probably want a 4 GB system, as at least
it can act as a lightweight desktop(-ish) system if the controller
project doesn't work out. Also, read the bit about Imager below, as it
makes setting up a Raspberry Pi trivial.


I'd probably go for 8 GB, as the price difference isn't that great. I 
learned a long time ago that going cheap with memory is a bad idea.




-

Longer answer: It should do. Check availability, though; Elmwood seems
to be short of Raspberry Pi 4 kits, so they may be back-ordered from
Canakit too. Buyapi (in Nepean) and Canakit are Canadian official
resellers, so are supposed to get priority on stock. Practically,
they'll run out like everyone else from time to time.


This isn't a high priority, so I can live with that.


Choice of OS could be critical: Raspberry Pi OS (the OS formerly known
as Raspbian) is a 32-bit Debian-derived distro. Ubuntu is 64-bit.
Raspberry Pi OS has devices and drivers tweaked to work with the
Raspberry Pi's hardware, as well as support from the Raspberry Pi
Foundation. Ubuntu may not have all the best and brightest drivers, and
Raspberry Pi-specific support may be lacking.

For installation, you'll probably want to replace whatever comes on the
supplied SD card with a known latest release. Many Raspberry Pi SD cards
still come installed with a slightly annoying (but super quick for
vendors to install) distro wrapper called NOOBS. Raspberry Pi Imager is
probably the quickest way to install an OS on the card:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/software/

You might want to install Raspberry Pi OS Lite, which doesn't run a desktop.


The software runs as a service, so no desktop needed.


Imager has a 'secret' setup screen (Ctrl + Shift + X) that allows you to
pre-configure bits of your system, such as user password, ssh keys and
wifi access (if you need it). Details:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-imager-update-to-v1-6/

Regarding running the Unifi controller, it looks like it's a bit of a
hack to get it running. Both tutorials I found recommend adding
Ubiquiti's Debian repo to the system. On a Raspberry Pi, this can result
in anything from "zero problems" to "everything stops working, forever".
It all depends what the repo pulls in and assumes about the system.


I have the software running on openSUSE and it was a simple matter of 
installing the RPM and ensuring the service was enabled.  Also, the 
official software from Ubiquiti is Debian based, whereas the openSUSE 
one was created by someone in the openSUSE community. However, I have no 
experience with Raspberries and little with DEB systems.



Both tutorials aren't perfect, but are a start:

1) https://pimylifeup.com/rasberry-pi-unifi/

2)
https://lazyadmin.nl/home-network/installing-unifi-controller-on-a-raspberry-pi-in-5-min/

In particular, both recommend unnecessary messing with the system
entropy source. If you install rng-tools (sudo apt install rng-tools)
without messing with the config file, it will automatically pull in the
hardware entropy source. It looks like both of these followed old
advice. 'Old', in the Raspberry Pi world, is anything older than 18
months or so. So much changes with the Raspberry Pi hardware and
software that old advice can sometimes be detrimental.


Yeah, there's often "old" advice in the Linux community.

As for using the Pi as a desktop system, I doubt I'll be doing that.  It 
will be for this one task alone.  Likewise, my firewall/router is 
pfsense, running on a Qotom mini PC with i5 CPU and 4 Ethernet ports.  
It certainly could be used as a desktop, but I don't see myself doing 
that.  It even came with the hardware for mounting on the back of a 
monitor. ;-)


tnx jk

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Starter Kit - Ubiquiti Unifi controller software

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2021-05-09 10:51 a.m., James Knott via talk wrote:
> I've been considering (because I have way too much time on my hands
> these days) getting a Raspberry Pi to run my Unifi access point
> controller software on.  I would be doing this with Ubuntu or Raspian
> Linux.  I currently run the controller on my desktop system (openSUSE). 
> I assume a kit like this would be suitable.
> 
> https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-4-starter-kit.html

Short answer: yes, maybe. You probably want a 4 GB system, as at least
it can act as a lightweight desktop(-ish) system if the controller
project doesn't work out. Also, read the bit about Imager below, as it
makes setting up a Raspberry Pi trivial.

-

Longer answer: It should do. Check availability, though; Elmwood seems
to be short of Raspberry Pi 4 kits, so they may be back-ordered from
Canakit too. Buyapi (in Nepean) and Canakit are Canadian official
resellers, so are supposed to get priority on stock. Practically,
they'll run out like everyone else from time to time.

Choice of OS could be critical: Raspberry Pi OS (the OS formerly known
as Raspbian) is a 32-bit Debian-derived distro. Ubuntu is 64-bit.
Raspberry Pi OS has devices and drivers tweaked to work with the
Raspberry Pi's hardware, as well as support from the Raspberry Pi
Foundation. Ubuntu may not have all the best and brightest drivers, and
Raspberry Pi-specific support may be lacking.

For installation, you'll probably want to replace whatever comes on the
supplied SD card with a known latest release. Many Raspberry Pi SD cards
still come installed with a slightly annoying (but super quick for
vendors to install) distro wrapper called NOOBS. Raspberry Pi Imager is
probably the quickest way to install an OS on the card:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/software/

You might want to install Raspberry Pi OS Lite, which doesn't run a desktop.

Imager has a 'secret' setup screen (Ctrl + Shift + X) that allows you to
pre-configure bits of your system, such as user password, ssh keys and
wifi access (if you need it). Details:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-imager-update-to-v1-6/

Regarding running the Unifi controller, it looks like it's a bit of a
hack to get it running. Both tutorials I found recommend adding
Ubiquiti's Debian repo to the system. On a Raspberry Pi, this can result
in anything from "zero problems" to "everything stops working, forever".
It all depends what the repo pulls in and assumes about the system.

Both tutorials aren't perfect, but are a start:

1) https://pimylifeup.com/rasberry-pi-unifi/

2)
https://lazyadmin.nl/home-network/installing-unifi-controller-on-a-raspberry-pi-in-5-min/

In particular, both recommend unnecessary messing with the system
entropy source. If you install rng-tools (sudo apt install rng-tools)
without messing with the config file, it will automatically pull in the
hardware entropy source. It looks like both of these followed old
advice. 'Old', in the Raspberry Pi world, is anything older than 18
months or so. So much changes with the Raspberry Pi hardware and
software that old advice can sometimes be detrimental.

cheers,
 Stewart
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[GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Starter Kit - Ubiquiti Unifi controller software

[James Knott via talk]

I've been considering (because I have way too much time on my hands 
these days) getting a Raspberry Pi to run my Unifi access point 
controller software on.  I would be doing this with Ubuntu or Raspian 
Linux.  I currently run the controller on my desktop system (openSUSE).  
I assume a kit like this would be suitable.


https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-4-starter-kit.html


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[GTALUG] Raspberry Pi High-Availability / Remote Serviceable Solution

[Scott Sullivan via talk]

This is a follow on from my talk back November. Which at the GTALUG this 
evening I gave a small follow up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwESAjUBuj0


At the end of the original talk I discussed having issue with electrical 
isolation on the USB serial adapter. I've since solved that with an 
inexpensive part that's exactly fit for purpose.


Below is the parts list:

* USB-C to Serial Port UART Board Module Isolated USB to TTL Module 3.3V
  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001644508314.html

* TP-Link Jetstream 10-Port Gigabit Smart Switch with 8-Port PoE+
  https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0141JX92G/

* Dupont Crimping Tool
  https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B087QY413W/

* JST-XHP Housings and Connectors
  https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07MBCLPBK/

* USB C to USB 2.0 A Cables
  https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01ASXBY62/

* GeeekPi Raspberry Pi 4 PoE HAT
  https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0833PP65P


I also showed off my Build of the Raspberry Pi modular rack, constructed 
from the design by Uptime Labs.


https://uplab.pro/2020/12/raspberry-pi-server-mark-iii/


I have a second one of these I printed and assembled but don't actually 
need. If someone interested, I'd sell if for $100 to cover the cost of 
the 5 case fans, steel rod and full spool of filament used in it's 
construction.


--
Scott Sullivan
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 8:39 PM Kevin Cozens via talk  wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-07 9:26 a.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> > In case anyone may have a need my resume is here: http://sahanaya.net/fsf/
> > Please scroll down and click the red 'download resume' button. Thanks.
>
> I saw your postings to the GTALUB mailing list. I had a quick look at your
> web page. Nice page showing an interesting set of past work. Just a couple
> of comments for you.
>
> You have a typo in the MY STRENGTHS diagram. You have "Preety Good" instead
> of "Pretty Good".

You have a very sharp eye for detail. Thank you. I have corrected the typo.

> The Work Process section still has some Latin placeholder text. Not sure if
> that is deliberate or a section you haven't yet completed.

I never got around to fixing that till just now. Fixed now and thanks again :-)
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 07:24:56PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> On the face of it, it sounds as odd as:
> 
>   Watch a TV ad on TV.
>   Conclude the advertised TV's picture looks better than your
>   TV.

I do love it when people ask for pictures of a TV on forums as if they
could judge anything based on that given camera variances and what kind
of computer screen they are viewing the picture on.  They are mostly
meaningless (unless you are using it to compare two TVs in the same image,
in which case you can probably tell something about their differences).

> Clearly, your Raspberry Pi OS in Virtual Box cannot be faster than the
> host OS since it is using the host OS.
> 
> Perhaps this is what's going on:
> 
> - modern Linux desktops use 3D accelerated compositing
> 
> - Hasell iGPUs are weak at 3D
> 
> - Raspberry Pi OS avoids this.
> 
> So:
> 
> Switch your PC to another Desktop Environment that doesn't do this
> heavy compositing.  Which ones?  I don't know, but there are a
> million.  debian supports a whole bunch, I think.  XFCE?

I use XFCE a lot.  Nice and simple and lightweight.  Gets the job done.

> I had a few SSDs fail in early the days.  None recently.
> 
> When they fail, they tend to fail suddenly and hard.  But then again
> HDDs can fail that way too.
> 
> From my early experiences, I organize my desktop this way:
> / on SSD
> /home ond HDD.
> 
> That way, a broken SSD is no problem: just replace and install a new
> OS.

If it is important, I run RAID1 of SSDs.  Then if it fails, you replace
it, and life goes on.  But other than the OCZ vertex 3 drives I got
initially years ago, I haven't had SSDs fail on me so far.  I am sure
they will at some point.  For large storage I still use harddisks
(currently 9x4TB WD Red Plus drives in RAID6) and my mythtv front end
still runs a pair of 500GB WD blue's in RAID1, and my laptop has 1 1TB
HD and 1TB SSD, so I have a few harddisks around, but most machines are
mainly SSD now.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 3/8/21 9:21 AM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2021-03-08 7:44 a.m., o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

(Re: DHL) Hmm - - - - did you enjoy the insecure (only a http NOT
https) web form you got to use for giving them your information? Did you
'like' the fact that you were set up so that you couldn't clear the 
shipment

yourself? Did you like the 'nice' fee you were charged for their rather
lackadaisical halding of the same?


I never entered info on the DHL site.  I provided info to the shipper 
in Hong Kong.


IIRC, the fee from DHL was $20 or so.  This is a lot less than what 
UPS charged years ago.  It was so obscene that I and others refused to 
use them.  I don't have a problem paying a reasonable amount for 
border brokerage service.  My item was over $300, so it couldn't slip 
through without attracting HST etc..


Having been raped by UPS/Fedex a few times for customs brokerage I try 
to only use USPS when getting things from the US.
I have never had to pay clearing changes and only once had to pay HST 
out of possibly 100 shipments over the years.



--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[James Knott via talk]

On 2021-03-08 7:44 a.m., o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

(Re: DHL) Hmm - - - - did you enjoy the insecure (only a http NOT
https) web form you got to use for giving them your information? Did you
'like' the fact that you were set up so that you couldn't clear the shipment
yourself? Did you like the 'nice' fee you were charged for their rather
lackadaisical halding of the same?


I never entered info on the DHL site.  I provided info to the shipper in 
Hong Kong.


IIRC, the fee from DHL was $20 or so.  This is a lot less than what UPS 
charged years ago.  It was so obscene that I and others refused to use 
them.  I don't have a problem paying a reasonable amount for border 
brokerage service.  My item was over $300, so it couldn't slip through 
without attracting HST etc..


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[James Knott via talk]

On 2021-03-08 12:33 a.m., Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:


And subsidized shipping.  It is often cheaper to mail from China or Hong
Kong than from within Toronto.


When someone pays for international mail, the country that has to 
deliver it receives nothing.  This means China can set a low fee for 
that mail and Canada gets to pay for the delivery.



I've also had DHL be faster from China than Canada Post's fastest
service can make it across Toronto.


I recently received a parcel from Hong Kong via DHL.  It took just over 
a week.


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 11:33 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk
 wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-07 11:14 a.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> >
> > And subsidized shipping.  It is often cheaper to mail from China or Hong
> > Kong than from within Toronto.
>
> Canada's mail pricing is iniquitous. I sent a Raspberry Pi Pico (okay,
> and a tiny piezo speaker so it would play the rickroll tune when plugged
> in …) to Halifax, NS the other week. Small padded bag, 35 grams: $18.
>
> I've also had DHL be faster from China than Canada Post's fastest
> service can make it across Toronto.
>

(Re: DHL) Hmm - - - - did you enjoy the insecure (only a http NOT
https) web form you got to use for giving them your information? Did you
'like' the fact that you were set up so that you couldn't clear the shipment
yourself? Did you like the 'nice' fee you were charged for their rather
lackadaisical halding of the same?

I didn't!

Then Canada Post - - - - - dunno how they manage to do it but they are
largely technologically incompetent and mostly unable to get the job
(their mandate) done. In fact - - - they're so incompetent that they
think they're competent (dunno how they manage this but they do!).

Regards
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2021-03-07 11:14 a.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> 
> And subsidized shipping.  It is often cheaper to mail from China or Hong 
> Kong than from within Toronto.

Canada's mail pricing is iniquitous. I sent a Raspberry Pi Pico (okay,
and a tiny piezo speaker so it would play the rickroll tune when plugged
in …) to Halifax, NS the other week. Small padded bag, 35 grams: $18.

I've also had DHL be faster from China than Canada Post's fastest
service can make it across Toronto.

> - Often one version of Ubuntu is made to run and that's it.  It is custom 
>   (because booting every board is different; DTree has helped but not 
>   fixed the problem).  It's rarely updated.
> 
> - drivers are never upstreamed by the board-maker or the SoC maker.  
>   Sometimes by volunteer reverse engineers (eg. linux-sunxi.org)
> 
> - there is no support except by enthusiasts

Those are the biggies. A supportive manufacturer and community is worth
the extra. The Banana Pi folks managed to cause one of the Raspberry Pi
hardware developers to nope out of the community for a couple of years
because they'd modified his Raspberry Pi GPIO library just enough to
work with one model of Banana Pi ... but left his name as the support
contact. He got so fed up with angry, entitled support requests that he
quit coding and became an artisanal baker.

cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2021-03-07 9:26 a.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:

In case anyone may have a need my resume is here: http://sahanaya.net/fsf/
Please scroll down and click the red 'download resume' button. Thanks.


I saw your postings to the GTALUB mailing list. I had a quick look at your 
web page. Nice page showing an interesting set of past work. Just a couple 
of comments for you.


You have a typo in the MY STRENGTHS diagram. You have "Preety Good" instead 
of "Pretty Good".


The Work Process section still has some Latin placeholder text. Not sure if 
that is deliberate or a section you haven't yet completed.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[James Knott via talk]

On 2021-03-07 11:42 a.m., William Park via talk wrote:

This is what I don't understand.  How do they get around CSA and FCC
certifications?


First off, either CSA or UL is acceptable in Canada.  However, since 
these devices are not AC line powered, neither approval is necessary as 
they're are safety related organizations and there's no risk as their 
might be with AC powered equipment.  What would require their 
certification is the wall wart that plugs into the AC outlet.  The FCC 
is a U.S. government body that regulates radio spectrum usage and more, 
but being an American body, it's irrelevant in Canada.


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: William Park via talk 

| On 3/7/21 11:14 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
| > - no approvals by UL, CSA, DoC, FCC, ...
| This is what I don't understand.  How do they get around CSA and FCC
| certifications?

Guess: it all comes in by mail so nobody catches it.

As far as CSA and UL, I think that the fact that it uses low voltage
makes it OK.  But the power supply certainly should be approved.

This does not cover DoC or FCC (radio interference).---
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[William Park via talk]

On 3/7/21 11:14 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

- no approvals by UL, CSA, DoC, FCC, ...

This is what I don't understand.  How do they get around CSA and FCC
certifications?
--William
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: mwilson--- via talk 

| "Aruna Hewapathirane via talk"  wrote:
| > Some of the fruit named Pi boards have hardware specs way better as well
| > but price is very affordable.
| > I am wondering why the price is so low compared to the Raspberry Pi ? Or
| > are we simply paying for the Raspberry brand name ?
| 
| I think it's the usual Chinese manufacturing cost advantage.

Sure.

And subsidized shipping.  It is often cheaper to mail from China or Hong 
Kong than from within Toronto.

And engineering short-cuts:

- once one of those inexpensive boards are built and sort of work, no 
  fixes are released

- Often one version of Ubuntu is made to run and that's it.  It is custom 
  (because booting every board is different; DTree has helped but not 
  fixed the problem).  It's rarely updated.

- drivers are never upstreamed by the board-maker or the SoC maker.  
  Sometimes by volunteer reverse engineers (eg. linux-sunxi.org)

- there is no support except by enthusiasts

- no approvals by UL, CSA, DoC, FCC, ...

It is also handy that most work on the Raspberry Pi is in a language I 
understand.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:06 PM William Park via talk 
wrote:
>
> If you need to move on, why not move on to other microcontroller
> devices, like Texas Instruments Launchpad, etc. ?  I think there are
> more job opportunities for those experiences than Raspberry Pi.  I don't
> know anyone who got job or contract based on Raspberry Pi experience.
>
> --William

TI Launchpad MSP430 boards are very cost effective and capable. A genuine
Arduino Uno is around $30 whereas a Launchpad is around $10 bucks. I am
not thinking of moving into industrial electronics William. I am a
programmer I love
coding and most of life is what I did to earn a living. Over time as we all
do I have managed
to gain a broad spectrum of skill-sets. I like to build things too so that
is where Arduino
and Raspberry Pi come in :-)

In case anyone may have a need my resume is here: http://sahanaya.net/fsf/
Please scroll down and click the red 'download resume' button. Thanks.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[William Park via talk]

On 3/7/21 8:27 AM, mwilson--- via talk wrote:

"Aruna Hewapathirane via talk"  wrote:

Some of the fruit named Pi boards have hardware specs way better as well
but price is very affordable.
I am wondering why the price is so low compared to the Raspberry Pi ? Or
are we simply paying for the Raspberry brand name ?

I think it's the usual Chinese manufacturing cost advantage.  Those fruit
and nano pi's are from Shenzhen or Guangzhou.
Professor Michael Hudson wrote a book, _Killing the Host_.  He lays out
the fact that with the Finance/Insurance/Real-Estate processing ~40% of
GDP in US or UK, that functions as overhead cost on US/UK manufacturing.
You just can't match Chinese prices with that level of management cost.
Add to that, ISO certifications, internal audits, and other political 
correctness policies.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[mwilson--- via talk]

"Aruna Hewapathirane via talk"  wrote:
> Some of the fruit named Pi boards have hardware specs way better as well
> but price is very affordable.
> I am wondering why the price is so low compared to the Raspberry Pi ? Or
> are we simply paying for the Raspberry brand name ?

I think it's the usual Chinese manufacturing cost advantage.  Those fruit
and nano pi's are from Shenzhen or Guangzhou.
Professor Michael Hudson wrote a book, _Killing the Host_.  He lays out
the fact that with the Finance/Insurance/Real-Estate processing ~40% of
GDP in US or UK, that functions as overhead cost on US/UK manufacturing. 
You just can't match Chinese prices with that level of management cost.


---
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[William Park via talk]

If you need to move on, why not move on to other microcontroller 
devices, like Texas Instruments Launchpad, etc. ?  I think there are 
more job opportunities for those experiences than Raspberry Pi.  I don't 
know anyone who got job or contract based on Raspberry Pi experience.


--William

On 3/3/21 9:56 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
I am hoping to go down the embedded linux rabbit hole. I have been 
messing around
with arduino for a while now and  I guess it is now time to move on to 
something a little

easier to compile and test a linux kernel on :-)

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 9:55 PM Kevin Cozens via talk 
wrote:

> On 2021-03-06 8:44 p.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> > I found a few other interesting SBC's and one that caught my eye is the
> > Orange-Pi has anyone used one of these ?
>
> There are several fruit named Pi boards. You have discovered OrangePi.
> There
> is also BananaPi. Another non-fruit named set of boards are the NanoPi
> boards.
>
> There are more boards similar to the above but those are the ones that
> came
> readily to mind.
>
>
Some of the fruit named Pi boards have hardware specs way better as well
but price is very affordable.
I am wondering why the price is so low compared to the Raspberry Pi ? Or
are we simply paying for the Raspberry brand name ?

Banana Pi and NanoPI eh ? :-)
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2021-03-06 8:44 p.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
I found a few other interesting SBC's and one that caught my eye is the 
Orange-Pi has anyone used one of these ?


There are several fruit named Pi boards. You have discovered OrangePi. There 
is also BananaPi. Another non-fruit named set of boards are the NanoPi boards.


There are more boards similar to the above but those are the ones that came 
readily to mind.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 07:57:05 -0500
Chris Aitken via talk  wrote:

> Am I on the wrong list for posing basic questions about Linux? I posted 
> a question a few weeks ago about about not being able to copy files 
> because of permissions and because filename had a '?' in it. I received 
> no response. I understand everyone is a volunteer. I'm not complaining - 
> just want to know if this is an appropriate forum for basic questions. I 
> know it's wrong to piggyback on this thread, but it is getting a lot of 
> traffic, so I had no choice. Do I keep posting, and just see which posts 
> are of interest to people, and which questions are not? Sorry, I'm not 
> one to take a hint or "know" when to leave a party. I need someone to 
> say, "Chris, leave the party." :)
> Chris

Chris,

   I have posted a UNIX Command Line HOWTO on my website.  I explain wildcards 
on it.

   http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/UnixHowto.html

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[James Knott via talk]

On 2021-03-06 7:57 a.m., Chris Aitken via talk wrote:
Am I on the wrong list for posing basic questions about Linux? I 
posted a question a few weeks ago about about not being able to copy 
files because of permissions and because filename had a '?' in it. I 
received no response. I understand everyone is a volunteer. I'm not 
complaining - just want to know if this is an appropriate forum for 
basic questions. I know it's wrong to piggyback on this thread, but it 
is getting a lot of traffic, so I had no choice. Do I keep posting, 
and just see which posts are of interest to people, and which 
questions are not? Sorry, I'm not one to take a hint or "know" when to 
leave a party. I need someone to say, "Chris, leave the  party." :)


I don't even recall seeing that question.

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Chris Aitken via talk]

Am I on the wrong list for posing basic questions about Linux? I posted 
a question a few weeks ago about about not being able to copy files 
because of permissions and because filename had a '?' in it. I received 
no response. I understand everyone is a volunteer. I'm not complaining - 
just want to know if this is an appropriate forum for basic questions. I 
know it's wrong to piggyback on this thread, but it is getting a lot of 
traffic, so I had no choice. Do I keep posting, and just see which posts 
are of interest to people, and which questions are not? Sorry, I'm not 
one to take a hint or "know" when to leave a party. I need someone to 
say, "Chris, leave the party." :)

Chris

On 2021-03-04 10:25 p.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:



On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:47 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier > wrote:


| From: Aruna Hewapathirane via talk mailto:talk@gtalug.org>>

| Hi Mat, many thanks and the more ram it has on board the better.
This is
| strictly
| for my own experimenting and learn by doing stuff. So any Pi
will do to
| start off with I guess.
|
| I am hoping to go down the embedded linux rabbit hole. I have
been messing
| around
| with arduino for a while now and  I guess it is now time to move
on to
| something a little
| easier to compile and test a linux kernel on :-)

Any Raspberry Pi would do for what you just said until you get to
the last
line.

If you don't care about kernel build time, I *guess* that any Pi
would do,
but I don't know.


I do very much care about the build time. I was thinking of cross 
compiling on my

ancient desktop then moving it to the Pi ?


| I am also very interested in seeing if a Pi can replace my
ancient desktop.
| I simply can't
| afford the Pi-4 desktop version with the dual monitor setup

You don't need two monitors so you can remove that cost.  You can
probably
use your old monitor, keyboard, and mouse (you might need dongles to
convert between old and new standards).

Agreed all I need is a single monitor.

What are the specs of your ancient desktop?


Well.. like I said pretty old my bios is:
cat /sys/class/dmi/id/bios_date
07/05/2013

and lscpu shows:
Architecture:          x86_64
CPU(s):                4
Thread(s) per core:    2
Core(s) per socket:    2
Vendor ID:             GenuineIntel
Model:                 60
Model name:            Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4130 CPU @ 3.40GHz
CPU MHz:               3389.375
CPU max MHz:           3400.
CPU min MHz:           800.
BogoMIPS:              6784.89

and free -h shows:
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:          7.5G       5.2G       2.3G       341M     163M       2.1G
-/+ buffers/cache:       2.9G       4.6G
Swap:         902M         0B       902M

it's not a bad system I just want to start messing with a Pi :-)



Most ancient desktops are actually more powerful than a Pi.  For some
meanings of "ancient".  If yours is really ancient, I would guess
that
there is a cast-off PC that is less ancient.

If you put a premium on "cute" and don't mind the various
inconveniences,
a Pi can surely be used as your main general-purpose desktop.
---


Thank you for all the pointers and advice.

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Giles Orr via talk]

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 19:11, Kevin Cozens via talk  wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-05 5:57 p.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> > Understood. I just want to try and build the smallest lightest kernel. Like
> > puppy linux or knoppix. I use Debian at home so this is good news.
>
> Other options for a small distro are DSL (Damn Small Linux) or Morphix.

While I agree that Damn Small was pretty good ... it was discontinued
nine years ago.  I know this because I was a fan back in the day, and
was very sorry to see it go.  DistroWatch tells me that Morphix was
discontinued in 2003.  I'm not sure either of these are good choices
...

Maybe try DistroWatch set to "Old Computers?":

https://distrowatch.com/search.php?category=Old+Computers#simple

Their first recommendation is Puppy, which is hardly surprising.  I
wasn't much of a fan.  Eighth on the list is Tiny Core.  Tiny Core is
 interesting, without doubt.  And light, again without doubt.  But
a real PITA because of the way it stores stuff.

If Raspberry Pi OS is in the running, I'd go with that.  I find it a
decent lightweight OS that acts a lot like other OSes that people are
used to.  This cannot be said of Tiny Core, and Puppy is a bit out
there too.

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Aruna Hewapathirane via talk 

| On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 11:21 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
| wrote:

| > As William top posted, that is still a perfectly repectable processor.
| > Much faster than any Raspberry Pi, as far as I know.
| 
| Yes it is but the Raspberry Pi OS I botted up in the Virtualbox is a lot
| more responsive than my actual system it is running on.

On the face of it, it sounds as odd as:

Watch a TV ad on TV.
Conclude the advertised TV's picture looks better than your
TV.

Clearly, your Raspberry Pi OS in Virtual Box cannot be faster than the
host OS since it is using the host OS.

Perhaps this is what's going on:

- modern Linux desktops use 3D accelerated compositing

- Hasell iGPUs are weak at 3D

- Raspberry Pi OS avoids this.

So:

Switch your PC to another Desktop Environment that doesn't do this
heavy compositing.  Which ones?  I don't know, but there are a
million.  debian supports a whole bunch, I think.  XFCE?

| SSD for me is a no-no. Risk of failure with absolutely no prior indication
| is a risk
| I am unwilling to take.

I had a few SSDs fail in early the days.  None recently.

When they fail, they tend to fail suddenly and hard.  But then again
HDDs can fail that way too.

From my early experiences, I organize my desktop this way:
/ on SSD
/home ond HDD.

That way, a broken SSD is no problem: just replace and install a new
OS.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2021-03-05 5:57 p.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
Understood. I just want to try and build the smallest lightest kernel. Like 
puppy linux or knoppix. I use Debian at home so this is good news.


Other options for a small distro are DSL (Damn Small Linux) or Morphix.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 11:21 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: William Park via talk 
>
> | No Raspberry Pi is going to match that.
> | --William
> |
> | On 3/4/21 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> | > Model name:Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4130 CPU @ 3.40GHz
>
> As William top posted, that is still a perfectly repectable processor.
> Much faster than any Raspberry Pi, as far as I know.
>

Yes it is but the Raspberry Pi OS I botted up in the Virtualbox is a lot
more responsive than my actual system it is running on.
I am still trying to figure out the reason why ? If you ever had a  Windows
machine and you installed Linux on it then you know what
I am talking about. Same hardware just running Linux now instead of Windows
and the increase in speed and performance has to
be experienced to be believed.

>
> Why did you think your system was badly obsolete?  It isn't.  It's
> limited in a few little ways.
>

Never said obsolete said ancient . I am happy with what I have and it
was William
Witteman who reached out and sent me the $:$$
when I was pulling my hair out many year sago because six hours had elapsed
and my kernel was still not done compiling. I had a
Pentium II back then. So nothing wrong with my system I just need a Pi for
different reasons.


>
> - No support for NVMe SSDs (but SATA SSDs are fast enough)
>

I am scared of SSD's for a good reason. They have no early warning system.
And when they decide to fail omg they fail so beautifully.
Beautifully equates to catastrophic unrecoverable as in dead in the water
so uh-uh I will stick with my old hard disks. I can hear them rattle and
diskmonitor gives me so far very reliable indicators of disk health.

>
> - Without a graphics board, it has trouble supporting UltraHD monitors
>
> Quite happy with my ancinet Samsung monitor :-) don't need UltraHD just
yet.


> - fewer video CODECs are supported in hardware.  This might make video
>   conferencing a little laggy.
>

True !

>
> - slower than current CPUs, but not enough to be a veto for use
>

Still compiles the linux kernel in just over 30 minutes sometimes 20
minutes.

>
> Why the heck did you think a Raspberry Pi would be a performance
> upgrade?
>

Well like i said before the responsiveness of a given system is a  very
tricky thing. The Raspberry Pi OS running in Virtualbox is way faster
when I click the app opens real fast boom! This may not happen on the real
hardware I have t wait and see once I get my hands on one.

>
> Your system will have much faster conventional I/O.
>
> How much RAM do you have?  If your system has too little RAM, you can add
> more.  You cannot do that with a Raspberry Pi.
>

I have  8gigs RAM.

>
> If your system only has a hard disk drive, you can surely boost the
> performance by adding an SSD (but only SATA, not NVMe).  There are
> plenty of modest SSDs for a low price.
>

SSD for me is a no-no. Risk of failure with absolutely no prior indication
is a risk
I am unwilling to take.

>
> Here are a few examples.  I have not carefully shopped for these.
> I've only looked on Amazon.ca.  This is only intended to show you the
> landscape of the 2.5" SSD market.
>
> If you are really really short of money, this would probably work:
> <
> https://www.amazon.ca/TC-SUNBOW-Internal-Desktop-Advertising/dp/B073TVJPDT/
> >
>
> - $29.99
>

Thank you Hugh very much appreciate all the digging and time you have spent
on my account but
what I need right now is a paying project or some sort of stable work I can
do remotely. I am not
complaining or bitching but 15 odd year snow in Toronto I am yet unable to
securer any computer work.
All I have is a minimum wage call center position. Which I am happy with as
I have friend's who have no jobs right now.

If anyone has any work that is within my limited skill sets please do send ?

>
> - bottom tier brand: unknown reliablilty, but probably OK
>
> It is a haswell processor so not a bad machine :-)


> - only 120GB, but that is quite workable, especially if you keep your
>   HDD.  I run full Fedora, without much local data, in 32GB.
>

Yes I am very much keeping my HDD.

>
> - free shipping (good) but from China (slow)
>
> - you can click on different sizes and get different prices.
>
>
> Here's a better brand and larger drive:
>
>  >
>
> - $44.95
>
> - 240GB
>
> - good brand but, if I remember correctly, surprisingly slow for an
>   SSD
>
> - free shipping available because cost is more than $35.  Fairly quick
>   delivery
>
>
> Here's a still better drive (faster, longer life, larger):
>
> - $84.99
>
> - 500 GB
>
> - has DRAM which cuts down a lot of wear on the SSD and makes it
>   faster.  I would *guess* that the other drives are DRAMless.---
>

Thank you very much for all the info Hugh.


> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:56 AM William Park via talk 
wrote:

> No Raspberry Pi is going to match that.
> --William
>

I am not looking for performance or match hardware specs William. What I am
trying is
to build the lightest most responsive desktop environment using a small
form factor.



> On 3/4/21 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> > Model name:Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4130 CPU @ 3.40GHz
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:42 AM Stewart Russell via talk 
wrote:

> On Thu., Mar. 4, 2021, 22:48 Aruna Hewapathirane, <
> aruna.hewapathir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh my .. Thank you so much Stewart. Nearest major intersection is
>> Lawrence Ave West and Caledonia Road.
>>
>
> Ah; other end of town. We can work something out.
>

I can come to any subway station on the Kennedy line or anywhere on the LRT
line. I don't drive Stewart am a confirmed TTC-cerian and pedestrian.

>
> I've also got a FireFly SBC you can have. Twice the memory, built-in
> (small) bootable storage, about as fast as the Raspberry Pi 3. Seems to be
> 32-bit ARM only (unlike Raspberry Pi, which can go 64-bit, but that's
> slightly futile in 1 GB), and kernel upgrades and boot process is fiddly.
> Nice machine, but minimal community support.
>

Wow thanks :-)


> I was thinking of cross compiling then moving it to the Pi ? What do you
>>> think  ? A lot faster and very much
>>>
>> less error prone ?
>>
>
> The Raspberry Pi's kernel is still (IIRC) not 100% mainstream, so some
> magic may be required. The supplied and supported Debian-derived Raspberry
> Pi OS is 32-bit, but has a userland that has all the built-in hardware
> supported. Go to any other OS and you lose that. I've never felt the need
> to go outside that.
>
> Understood. I just want to try and build the smallest lightest kernel.
Like puppy linux or knoppix. I use Debian at home so this is good news.


> I was a little surprised to see you running Raspberry Pi OS on VirtualBox.
>

Well I was surprised myself. After what Giles said I wanted to test this
but had no hardware or a Pi to test on. So I gave Virtualbox a shot and it
did work :-)


> Looks like you're running the x86 Raspberry Pi Desktop for Intel -
> supplied and maintained by the Foundation so old PCs can be reused as
> workalike devices in the classroom.
>

This is one major reason why I am starting to explore SBC's. Someday I want
to get a computer ( Pi or Firefly or other SBC ) into every single home in
resource poor settings like say Zambia where I grew up most of
my teen years or Sri Lanka where I was born or even the Phillipines where
the poverty level bought tears to my eyes after watching youtube
documentaries. I know big dreams.. who knows... nothing ventured.. nothing
gained eh :-)


> The Raspberry Pi boards are all ARM, so you'd be running something
> different and your cross-compilation would need to add an armhf step.
> Unless VirtualBox has gone all ARM too, you're not running the same OS at
> all.
>

I did not have time yesterday to try QEMU. I will setup QEMU later today
and put Raspberry Pi OS through all the hoops and loops. I am going to try
anyway.


>
> Cheers
>  Stewart
>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: William Park via talk 

| No Raspberry Pi is going to match that.
| --William
| 
| On 3/4/21 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
| > Model name:            Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4130 CPU @ 3.40GHz

As William top posted, that is still a perfectly repectable processor.
Much faster than any Raspberry Pi, as far as I know.

Why did you think your system was badly obsolete?  It isn't.  It's 
limited in a few little ways.

- No support for NVMe SSDs (but SATA SSDs are fast enough)

- Without a graphics board, it has trouble supporting UltraHD monitors

- fewer video CODECs are supported in hardware.  This might make video 
  conferencing a little laggy.

- slower than current CPUs, but not enough to be a veto for use

Why the heck did you think a Raspberry Pi would be a performance
upgrade?

Your system will have much faster conventional I/O.

How much RAM do you have?  If your system has too little RAM, you can add 
more.  You cannot do that with a Raspberry Pi.

If your system only has a hard disk drive, you can surely boost the
performance by adding an SSD (but only SATA, not NVMe).  There are
plenty of modest SSDs for a low price.

Here are a few examples.  I have not carefully shopped for these.
I've only looked on Amazon.ca.  This is only intended to show you the
landscape of the 2.5" SSD market.

If you are really really short of money, this would probably work:


- $29.99

- bottom tier brand: unknown reliablilty, but probably OK

- only 120GB, but that is quite workable, especially if you keep your
  HDD.  I run full Fedora, without much local data, in 32GB.

- free shipping (good) but from China (slow)

- you can click on different sizes and get different prices.


Here's a better brand and larger drive:



- $44.95

- 240GB

- good brand but, if I remember correctly, surprisingly slow for an
  SSD

- free shipping available because cost is more than $35.  Fairly quick
  delivery


Here's a still better drive (faster, longer life, larger):

- $84.99

- 500 GB

- has DRAM which cuts down a lot of wear on the SSD and makes it
  faster.  I would *guess* that the other drives are DRAMless.---
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[William Park via talk]

No Raspberry Pi is going to match that.
--William

On 3/4/21 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:

Model name:            Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4130 CPU @ 3.40GHz

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Thu., Mar. 4, 2021, 22:48 Aruna Hewapathirane, <
aruna.hewapathir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Oh my .. Thank you so much Stewart. Nearest major intersection is
> Lawrence Ave West and Caledonia Road.
>

Ah; other end of town. We can work something out.

I've also got a FireFly SBC you can have. Twice the memory, built-in
(small) bootable storage, about as fast as the Raspberry Pi 3. Seems to be
32-bit ARM only (unlike Raspberry Pi, which can go 64-bit, but that's
slightly futile in 1 GB), and kernel upgrades and boot process is fiddly.
Nice machine, but minimal community support.

I was thinking of cross compiling then moving it to the Pi ? What do you
>> think  ? A lot faster and very much
>>
> less error prone ?
>

The Raspberry Pi's kernel is still (IIRC) not 100% mainstream, so some
magic may be required. The supplied and supported Debian-derived Raspberry
Pi OS is 32-bit, but has a userland that has all the built-in hardware
supported. Go to any other OS and you lose that. I've never felt the need
to go outside that.

I was a little surprised to see you running Raspberry Pi OS on VirtualBox.
Looks like you're running the x86 Raspberry Pi Desktop for Intel - supplied
and maintained by the Foundation so old PCs can be reused as workalike
devices in the classroom. The Raspberry Pi boards are all ARM, so you'd be
running something different and your cross-compilation would need to add an
armhf step. Unless VirtualBox has gone all ARM too, you're not running the
same OS at all.

Cheers
 Stewart


>>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 10:35 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

> On 2021-03-03 9:05 p.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have a Raspberry Pi lying around you no longer need ?
>
> Yup. I've got a 3B+ + power supply + smallish SD card you can have. Just
> add keyboard and HDMI monitor. Where are you based?
>

Oh my .. Thank you so much Stewart. Nearest major intersection is  Lawrence
Ave West and Caledonia Road.

>
> Building new kernels might be a disappointment: it's quite easy to screw
> that up on a Raspberry Pi, for $reasons
>
>  I was thinking of cross compiling then moving it to the Pi ? What do you
think  ? A lot faster and very much
less error prone ?


> cheers,
>  Stewart
>

Once again many thanks :-)



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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2021-03-03 9:05 p.m., Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have a Raspberry Pi lying around you no longer need ?

Yup. I've got a 3B+ + power supply + smallish SD card you can have. Just
add keyboard and HDMI monitor. Where are you based?

Building new kernels might be a disappointment: it's quite easy to screw
that up on a Raspberry Pi, for $reasons

cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:47 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier  wrote:

> | From: Aruna Hewapathirane via talk 
>
> | Hi Mat, many thanks and the more ram it has on board the better. This is
> | strictly
> | for my own experimenting and learn by doing stuff. So any Pi will do to
> | start off with I guess.
> |
> | I am hoping to go down the embedded linux rabbit hole. I have been
> messing
> | around
> | with arduino for a while now and  I guess it is now time to move on to
> | something a little
> | easier to compile and test a linux kernel on :-)
>
> Any Raspberry Pi would do for what you just said until you get to the last
> line.
>
> If you don't care about kernel build time, I *guess* that any Pi would do,
> but I don't know.
>

I do very much care about the build time. I was thinking of cross compiling
on my
ancient desktop then moving it to the Pi ?


> | I am also very interested in seeing if a Pi can replace my ancient
> desktop.
> | I simply can't
> | afford the Pi-4 desktop version with the dual monitor setup
>
> You don't need two monitors so you can remove that cost.  You can probably
> use your old monitor, keyboard, and mouse (you might need dongles to
> convert between old and new standards).
>
> Agreed all I need is a single monitor.

What are the specs of your ancient desktop?
>

Well.. like I said pretty old my bios is:
cat /sys/class/dmi/id/bios_date
07/05/2013

and lscpu shows:
Architecture:  x86_64
CPU(s):4
Thread(s) per core:2
Core(s) per socket:2
Vendor ID: GenuineIntel
Model: 60
Model name:Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4130 CPU @ 3.40GHz
CPU MHz:   3389.375
CPU max MHz:   3400.
CPU min MHz:   800.
BogoMIPS:  6784.89

and free -h shows:
 total   used   free sharedbuffers cached
Mem:  7.5G   5.2G   2.3G   341M   163M   2.1G
-/+ buffers/cache:   2.9G   4.6G
Swap: 902M 0B   902M

it's not a bad system I just want to start messing with a Pi :-)



> Most ancient desktops are actually more powerful than a Pi.  For some
> meanings of "ancient".  If yours is really ancient, I would guess that
> there is a cast-off PC that is less ancient.
>
> If you put a premium on "cute" and don't mind the various inconveniences,
> a Pi can surely be used as your main general-purpose desktop.
> ---
>

Thank you for all the pointers and advice.


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 10:58 AM mwilson--- via talk  wrote:

> "Giles Orr"  said:
> > Hi Aruna.
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 21:56, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk
> >  wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >> I am also very interested in seeing if a Pi can replace my ancient
> >> desktop. I simply can't
> >> afford the Pi-4 desktop version with the dual monitor setup so thought I
> >> will ask and see if
> >> anyone has a spare.
> >[ ... ]
> > I'm using a Pi 4 with 8G as a secondary desktop, and have been finding
> > it quite useful.  Mind you, I'm not using it for Gimp photo editing -
> > but I do use it for web browsing (not a lightweight activity) and it
> > handles that well.  I think you would find any of the 1G models
> > unsatisfactory as a desktop replacement: I wouldn't think about it
> > until it had 4G RAM, and I'd prefer the 8G.
>
> Memory might not be horribly tight.  I'm running a session now with half a
> dozen Image Viewer instances (~ 1Mpixel each), a Gimp instance with a
> half-dozen 2..3MByte .xcf's, and Firefox with a commercial page and this
> SquirrelMail page, and memory usage just cracked 1040MB, according to Task
> Manager.  Most data is on a USB hard drive, but that shouldn't matter.
> A 4GB Pi might be roomy, for a modest workload.
>

I just found that out on a virtualbox and Raspberry Pi using just 512Mb as
System Memory :-)


>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Aruna Hewapathirane via talk 

| Hi Mat, many thanks and the more ram it has on board the better. This is
| strictly
| for my own experimenting and learn by doing stuff. So any Pi will do to
| start off with I guess.
| 
| I am hoping to go down the embedded linux rabbit hole. I have been messing
| around
| with arduino for a while now and  I guess it is now time to move on to
| something a little
| easier to compile and test a linux kernel on :-)

Any Raspberry Pi would do for what you just said until you get to the last 
line.

If you don't care about kernel build time, I *guess* that any Pi would do, 
but I don't know.

| I am also very interested in seeing if a Pi can replace my ancient desktop.
| I simply can't
| afford the Pi-4 desktop version with the dual monitor setup

You don't need two monitors so you can remove that cost.  You can probably 
use your old monitor, keyboard, and mouse (you might need dongles to 
convert between old and new standards).

What are the specs of your ancient desktop?

Most ancient desktops are actually more powerful than a Pi.  For some 
meanings of "ancient".  If yours is really ancient, I would guess that 
there is a cast-off PC that is less ancient.

If you put a premium on "cute" and don't mind the various inconveniences, 
a Pi can surely be used as your main general-purpose desktop.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[mwilson--- via talk]

"Giles Orr"  said:
> Hi Aruna.
>
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 21:56, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk
>  wrote:
[ ... ]
>> I am also very interested in seeing if a Pi can replace my ancient
>> desktop. I simply can't
>> afford the Pi-4 desktop version with the dual monitor setup so thought I
>> will ask and see if
>> anyone has a spare.
>[ ... ]
> I'm using a Pi 4 with 8G as a secondary desktop, and have been finding
> it quite useful.  Mind you, I'm not using it for Gimp photo editing -
> but I do use it for web browsing (not a lightweight activity) and it
> handles that well.  I think you would find any of the 1G models
> unsatisfactory as a desktop replacement: I wouldn't think about it
> until it had 4G RAM, and I'd prefer the 8G.

Memory might not be horribly tight.  I'm running a session now with half a
dozen Image Viewer instances (~ 1Mpixel each), a Gimp instance with a
half-dozen 2..3MByte .xcf's, and Firefox with a commercial page and this
SquirrelMail page, and memory usage just cracked 1040MB, according to Task
Manager.  Most data is on a USB hard drive, but that shouldn't matter.
A 4GB Pi might be roomy, for a modest workload.


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Giles Orr via talk]

Hi Aruna.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 21:56, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk
 wrote:
>
> Hi Mat, many thanks and the more ram it has on board the better. This is 
> strictly
> for my own experimenting and learn by doing stuff. So any Pi will do to start 
> off with I guess.
>
> I am hoping to go down the embedded linux rabbit hole. I have been messing 
> around
> with arduino for a while now and  I guess it is now time to move on to 
> something a little
> easier to compile and test a linux kernel on :-)
>
> I am also very interested in seeing if a Pi can replace my ancient desktop. I 
> simply can't
> afford the Pi-4 desktop version with the dual monitor setup so thought I will 
> ask and see if
> anyone has a spare.
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 9:38 PM Matt Price  wrote:
>>
>> I might have one, what generation do you need and what's the application?
>>
>> On Wed., Mar. 3, 2021, 9:06 p.m. Aruna Hewapathirane via talk, 
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Does anyone have a Raspberry Pi lying around you no longer need ?
>>>
>>> Thanks - Aruna

The Pi 2 and Pi 3 come with 1G of memory, end of story.  Don't use a
Pi 1 - there are too many issues and they (some or all, can't
remember) don't have 1G of memory.  The only ones with more than 1G
are the recent Pi 4 series - and the ones with more than 1G all cost
more money.  The Pi 4 is also the only series with USB3.  They're the
newest and the best and as such, people aren't likely to be giving
them away yet(?).

I'm using a Pi 4 with 8G as a secondary desktop, and have been finding
it quite useful.  Mind you, I'm not using it for Gimp photo editing -
but I do use it for web browsing (not a lightweight activity) and it
handles that well.  I think you would find any of the 1G models
unsatisfactory as a desktop replacement: I wouldn't think about it
until it had 4G RAM, and I'd prefer the 8G.

If you want to learn about using a Pi - go to it.  But if you want a
desktop replacement ... I'm afraid you need the one you've said you
can't afford.  Sorry.

Something worth noting is that you need a good USB power supply.  Most
USB chargers _don't_ cut it: the Pi will be constantly telling you
it's undervoltage.  That's a long conversation of itself, but the main
point is you may have another cost on your hands.  And of course
you'll need a microSD card for the OS.

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

Hi Mat, many thanks and the more ram it has on board the better. This is
strictly
for my own experimenting and learn by doing stuff. So any Pi will do to
start off with I guess.

I am hoping to go down the embedded linux rabbit hole. I have been messing
around
with arduino for a while now and  I guess it is now time to move on to
something a little
easier to compile and test a linux kernel on :-)

I am also very interested in seeing if a Pi can replace my ancient desktop.
I simply can't
afford the Pi-4 desktop version with the dual monitor setup so thought I
will ask and see if
anyone has a spare.

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 9:38 PM Matt Price  wrote:

> I might have one, what generation do you need and what's the application?
>
> On Wed., Mar. 3, 2021, 9:06 p.m. Aruna Hewapathirane via talk, <
> talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Does anyone have a Raspberry Pi lying around you no longer need ?
>>
>> Thanks - Aruna
>> ---
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>>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Matt Price via talk]

I might have one, what generation do you need and what's the application?

On Wed., Mar. 3, 2021, 9:06 p.m. Aruna Hewapathirane via talk, <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a Raspberry Pi lying around you no longer need ?
>
> Thanks - Aruna
> ---
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[GTALUG] Raspberry Pi

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

Hello,

Does anyone have a Raspberry Pi lying around you no longer need ?

Thanks - Aruna
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

Sorry for the late entry, been a busy couple of days...

Aruna, I'm glad that you found the info on the firmware upgrades enabling the 
Pi4 to run cooler. They indicate that fanless passive cooling is acceptable for 
most uses.

The FLIRC is great because most of the case is one giant aluminum heat sink. It 
looks great and is my second favourite case right now.

But if you're still looking, I suggest checking out the Argon ONE case. It also 
has great heatsink cooling, but also is the most PC like case. It puts all the 
ports at the back and includes a power switch. Reviews are easy to find, here's 
one: https://youtu.be/8VlE654abDo ... it might even help in Hugh's use case...

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 11:56 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> Just adding my two cents after reading this thread.
>
> Cooling (just an opinion, not based on diverse experience):
>
> - Pi 4 does not need cooling but it apparently makes a difference in
>   performance under load.
>

I found this about heat and thermal throttling for the Pi:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/thermal-testing-raspberry-pi-4/
Very interesting read ( a bit lengthy but fully worth it )


> - passive cooling is "good enough".  I use a FLIRC case
>   
>   Passive means that it won't wear out.
>   A lot more choices are available now.
>   The price ($21.15) isn't too horrible.
>

They have another case which looks interesting:
https://youtu.be/79HG6ZUblZs
He actually has temperature readings over 20 minutes under load.

>
> | From: Aruna Hewapathirane via talk 
>
> | This is not for me. My uncle lives in Edmonton. He is in his late 70's
> and
> | getting on.
> | I visited him recently and he has an ancient desktop and my aunty has a
> | laptop. Both
> | run Windows 10.
>
> The step from Win10 => Linux might or might not be hard for them.  You
> don't really want to find out the hard way.  For example, they might
> need some initial help that is hard to do remotely.  Forcing them into
> new habits might or might not go well.
>

You know I never gave this much thought. I have been using Linux for
so long now it never occured to me. But your so right. I may need to
rethink all this again. Thank's for the pointer.

After reading what you said I googled around and found this:
https://youtu.be/h0_kEV-gdtI
This is more proof of concept and wifi does not work. I wonder
how functional and actually useful it would be ? But windows can be
installed on the Pi :-)

>
> I did switch my father from Windows to Linux when he started having
> trouble (in his late 80s).  He barely noticed.  But I wasn't a plane
> trip away.
>

Yes and return fare to Edmonton is not cheap :-)

>
> I guess you want two desktops.  It might be best if they are very
> similar so that they can help each other.
>

Makes sense. But uncle has a desktop and aunty uses the laptop.
Uncle dislikes the lap and aunty does not much care for the desktop.

>
> How much of their old systems is salvageable?
>

Most everything..

>
> - keyboard, mouse: USB, right?
>

 Yep !


>
> - display: CRT or LCD?  Connectors: VGA, DVI, DisplayPort, or HDMI
>   (likely some subset)?
>
> - cables, desks, ...
>
> The Raspberry Pi family is meant to invite play.  Unfortunately,
> that's kind of the opposite of what you want.  You can paper over much
> of that by configuring it yourself.  Little things like power on /
> power off remain as possible problems.
>
> The first time you turn on a new conventional PC involves a lot of
> busywork.  Windows requires a fair amount of stupid work.  Some people
> even find that unboxing and plugging all the cables in is challenging.
> Other than that, I'd suggest ordering a PC of some sort to be
> delivered to their house: no additional expense.
>
> These days, notebooks are the right choice for most people.  Less
> cabling, less trouble moving, less space, not too expensive.  On the
> down side, the screens may be too small for folks with vision
> problems.
>
> I don't know how important price is to you.  You could consider refurb
> stuff from Dell Financial Services.  Not the cheapest but they are not
> fly by night.  Supplies are a bit limited because of the lock-down.
>

Price is very important right now.

>
> 
>
> Shipping isn't free.
>
> There are also small X86 PCs.  They are often as expensive as
> notebooks.  But they might let your customers keep their existing
> keyboard, mouse, and monitor.  For example, I have a few ThinkCentre
> M93p "tiny" computers.
>
> These people currently have them starting at $170.  Not cheap.
> Getting old.  Still getting updates from Lenovo!
> <
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-hKAmQahPcEV_h5mwflWGLWCQtqkKOBDbsakv4ee2u0/edit#gid=0
> >
>
> Dell has SFF (Small Form Factor) PCs (a little larger than "tiny").
> Here are some
> <
> https://www.dellrefurbished.com/desktop-computers?filter_brand=188_chassis_type=242
> >
>
>
> |  The modem+router is in their basement. The house has 3
> | levels. So
> | the wifi signal has to get through two floors for my uncle and one floor
> | for my aunty.
>
> Mentioned before, but:
>
> Surely there is a way to move the modem/router.
>
> - if it is DSL, all you have to do is move the modem/router to another
> phone jack
>   (and juggle the filters)
>

I will ask uncle to check and get back to me. That seems simple enough to
do.


> - if it is cable, all you should have to do is move the modem/router
>   to a different cable jack
>
> It would be odd if there were not a jack elsewhere.
>

Again I will ask uncle to check and let me know.


> A Raspberry Pi's WiFi might not be great 

Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2020-08-09 12:02 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

Switching to a 64-bit OS would let Gimp use most of your 8G.

As for crashing: do you know what kind of crash is happening?  Is it
worth reporting?


I suspect it is running out of memory. You can check the system log messages 
after the crash to see if there are any OOM lines in it. GIMP can use a fair 
amount of RAM depending on the size of the file being worked on and the undo 
levels. Check the programs preference settings under System Resources.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[mwilson--- via talk]

From: D. Hugh Redelmeier" 
> | From: mwilson--- via talk 
>
> | [ GIMP crashes under Raspberry Pi OS ]
>
> Last I checked, ordinary Raspbian was 32-bit only.  If Gimp's memory
> use is within a single processs, it is limited to about 2 or 3G (I
> don't remember which) of your 8G.
>
> Switching to a 64-bit OS would let Gimp use most of your 8G.
>
> As for crashing: do you know what kind of crash is happening?  Is it
> worth reporting?

Thanks.  My only data point was that GIMP hadn't been crashing under I386
Debian.  Next time I'll submit a crash report; it's the right thing to do.

I guess the 4GB system will get random use as a wandering client.  I
already have a Pi3 running nginx as a local web server.  The appeal is the
slightly lower power requirement.


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: mwilson--- via talk 

| I started with a 4GByte kit from ABRA in Montreal.  It did adequately
| replacing my old 1-core I386 desktop, mostly running Firefox and Gnu Image
| Manipulation Program.  GIMP seemed to encounter strange crashes with many
| images open, so I lately upgraded to an 8GByte kit from CanaKit in BC, as
| soon as they announced the 8GB.  It is also working well, with occasional
| GIMP crashes.  I don't have anything like benchmark results to tell you.

Last I checked, ordinary Raspbian was 32-bit only.  If Gimp's memory
use is within a single processs, it is limited to about 2 or 3G (I
don't remember which) of your 8G.

Switching to a 64-bit OS would let Gimp use most of your 8G.

As for crashing: do you know what kind of crash is happening?  Is it
worth reporting?
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

Just adding my two cents after reading this thread.

Cooling (just an opinion, not based on diverse experience):

- Pi 4 does not need cooling but it apparently makes a difference in 
  performance under load.

- passive cooling is "good enough".  I use a FLIRC case
  
  Passive means that it won't wear out.
  A lot more choices are available now.
  The price ($21.15) isn't too horrible.

| From: Aruna Hewapathirane via talk 

| This is not for me. My uncle lives in Edmonton. He is in his late 70's and
| getting on.
| I visited him recently and he has an ancient desktop and my aunty has a
| laptop. Both
| run Windows 10.

The step from Win10 => Linux might or might not be hard for them.  You
don't really want to find out the hard way.  For example, they might
need some initial help that is hard to do remotely.  Forcing them into
new habits might or might not go well.

I did switch my father from Windows to Linux when he started having
trouble (in his late 80s).  He barely noticed.  But I wasn't a plane
trip away.

I guess you want two desktops.  It might be best if they are very
similar so that they can help each other.

How much of their old systems is salvageable?

- keyboard, mouse: USB, right?

- display: CRT or LCD?  Connectors: VGA, DVI, DisplayPort, or HDMI
  (likely some subset)?

- cables, desks, ...

The Raspberry Pi family is meant to invite play.  Unfortunately,
that's kind of the opposite of what you want.  You can paper over much
of that by configuring it yourself.  Little things like power on /
power off remain as possible problems.

The first time you turn on a new conventional PC involves a lot of
busywork.  Windows requires a fair amount of stupid work.  Some people
even find that unboxing and plugging all the cables in is challenging.
Other than that, I'd suggest ordering a PC of some sort to be
delivered to their house: no additional expense.

These days, notebooks are the right choice for most people.  Less
cabling, less trouble moving, less space, not too expensive.  On the
down side, the screens may be too small for folks with vision
problems.

I don't know how important price is to you.  You could consider refurb
stuff from Dell Financial Services.  Not the cheapest but they are not
fly by night.  Supplies are a bit limited because of the lock-down.



Shipping isn't free.

There are also small X86 PCs.  They are often as expensive as
notebooks.  But they might let your customers keep their existing
keyboard, mouse, and monitor.  For example, I have a few ThinkCentre
M93p "tiny" computers.

These people currently have them starting at $170.  Not cheap.
Getting old.  Still getting updates from Lenovo!


Dell has SFF (Small Form Factor) PCs (a little larger than "tiny").
Here are some



|  The modem+router is in their basement. The house has 3
| levels. So
| the wifi signal has to get through two floors for my uncle and one floor
| for my aunty.

Mentioned before, but:

Surely there is a way to move the modem/router.

- if it is DSL, all you have to do is move the modem/router to another phone 
jack
  (and juggle the filters)

- if it is cable, all you should have to do is move the modem/router
  to a different cable jack

It would be odd if there were not a jack elsewhere.

A Raspberry Pi's WiFi might not be great (I don't know).  After all,
its antena is just a squiggle on the PC board.

| Most
| times things are extremely slow.

Why?  Often a hard problem to answer, but without knowing why it is hard 
to know the best fixes.

- old WiFi standard (eg. 802.11b)?

- too many neighbours using the channel?

- leaky microwave oven?

- substandard broadband service?

| I could run an ethernet cable from the
| basement and wire
| a direct connection but did not have the time to do that this time.

That should not be necessary.  I do like wired connections for
security and for fewer/simpler ways of going wrong.  I no longer even
wire my TV PCs.

| If there is anyone in Edmonton in the Castledowns area who has the
| experience and a few minutes
| to spare would it be possible to have a look at my uncle's basement and see
| what would be the
| best way to solve this ?

There surely is, but asking the GTA LUG might not be the best way to
discover them.  Certainly you might find GTA people with Edmonton
connections.  Google finds:

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

Hi Stewart,

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 3:21 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

> Hi Aruna -
>
> Just covering some points that didn't quite match my experience. 4GB
> Raspberry Pi 4 good, 8 GB better, which it sounds like you've discovered.
>

Yes thanks to Scott and others :-)

>
> > How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ?
> > Or will work fine without one ?
>
> You can definitely get by without one. I have the temperature-controlled
> Pimoroni Fan Shim in one, and it very rarely operates. It used to run a
> lot before the firmware update late last year, but these days I barely
> notice it.
>

Oh-kay but am gonna get a fan just to be on the safe side. I am paranoid
when it comes to hardware.

>
> > How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk
> > as compared to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?
>
> More difficult, but not that hard. Note that the Raspberry Pi is picky
> about SATA adapters. This one has a chipset that will give you pretty
> close to the maximum speed possible with the Raspberry Pi 4's slightly
> wiggly data path: STARTECH USB 3.0 to 2.5" SATA III Hard Drive Adapter
> Cable w/ UASP —
>
> https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_1336_96_id=085674


I am curious when you say slightly wiggly data path ? How wiggly ?

>
>
> This may all get radically simpler when UEFI for the Raspberry Pi
> becomes a stable thing, but that's a little way off yet.
>

I hate UEFI always gives me a hard time when I have to do a dual boot
linux/Windows installation.

>
> > Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ?
>
> If you do buy the full kit including keyboard and mouse, the compact
> keyboard and mouse are surprisingly good (for my values of "good"). It
> also has the clever feature of a 3-port USB hub built into the keyboard,
> so you can plug in the mouse and only use one port - and still have a
> nearby port for USB stick use.
>

I was thinking of getting a USB extender hub with 4 ports or similar.


>
> The full kit comes with 2x micro-hdmi to HDMI cables. Absurd numbers of
> Raspberry Pi 4s are selling as dual-monitor thin clients, but note
> there's only room for *micro* HDMI connectors: it's hard to bodge with
> adapters.
>

Alright noted with thanks.

>
> You also said:
>
> > The hardest I will run that Pi will be when compiling the Linux
> > Kernel and when making Video calls.
>
> Ah. The Raspberry Pi kernel is *not quite* mainline yet. Building a new
> kernel will likely lose you useful things in the stock kernel, such as
> 3d graphics acceleration and video acceleration. You also (currently)
> lose that if you run a 64-bit kernel.
>

Oh no-no I meant compiling the Raspberry Pi kernel itself. I found some
code here: https://github.com/raspberrypi
Again just to teach myself and see if I can make it have a smaller
footprint.


> The stock Raspberry Pi OS image (formerly known as Raspbian: it's
> Debian-based) has the best user experience. Every other distro hasn't
> got as much user support. The Raspberry Pi Foundation has a very
> definite view of how their desktop should look, so if you've done lots
> of customization to their LXDE-based desktop, it *will* all get reverted
> at the next refresh of the UI. This happens roughly quarterly.
>

So is the quarterly refresh of the UI automatic ? or you are given the
option
to choose and say yes go ahead or uh-uh stick with my modified one ?


>
> Also, video calls: I don't know of any of the major video call providers
> that support ARM and Raspberry Pi. Google Meet through Chromium, maybe.
> Anything that requires a binary (so Zoom, Skype) is right out. Going to
> ARM from x86 for the first time can be a bit of a blow: the number of
> systems that only work on x86 is annoyingly high.
>

Video calls are what I use to stress test a system. I did find some links
about making video calls using the Pi:

Video Calling on Raspberry Pi 3


Working from home with your Pi
Turn
a Raspberry Pi, a Webcam and a TV into a video call ...



>
> The Raspberry Pi camera is also fixed focus and doesn't do audio. It's
> not useful for video calls.
>

Okay good to know again.


>
> I don't know anyone well enough in the Edmonton area to help with
> installation, sorry.
>

No worries, you have been a big help. Thank you.


>
> cheers,
>   Stewart
>
>
> cheers,
>   Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

> >> How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
> >> will work fine without one ?
> >[ ... ]
>  the 8GB Pi4B which had been running idle
> > overnight, and the air temperature in the case near the processor read
> > 37degC.  A few minutes work with GIMP brought that slowly to 42.4degC.
>
> Thinking some more, the USB connections to my desktop Pi are keyboard,
> mouse, and a powered USB hub (plus an itinerant powered USB disk drive.)
> The Pi4 is spec'ed to provide up to 1.2A to USB peripherals.  The fact
> that my system is hardly drawing any of that probably has a lot to do with
> its running so cool.
>

Good to know. Thank you.


>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:21 AM Kevin Cozens via talk 
wrote:

> On 2020-08-08 10:49 a.m., Scott Sullivan via talk wrote:
> > When you also factor in Keyboard, Mouse, and USB boot drive, your left
> with
> > only one spare USB port, which could likely be taken up by a webcam.
>
> You can use a USB type web cam with a Pi but you can don't need to. There
> is
> a special onboard connector that is meant to be used with a camera module.
>
>
Thank's Kevin I will look at what is available and works well with a Pi.


> --
> Cheers!
>
> Kevin.
>
> http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
> https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
>  | that's why we're powerful"
> Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
> #include  | --Chris Hardwick
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

> > So it has USB boot with the Pi 4 I just have to change the
> > FIRMWARE_RELEASE_STATUS value from "critical" to "stable."
>
> I would err on the side of sticking with just a high quality SD card.
> There far less chance of the accidental removal while the machine is in
> operation.
>

Very true :-)

>
> When you also factor in Keyboard, Mouse, and USB boot drive, your left
> with only one spare USB port, which could likely be taken up by a
> webcam. Sticking to the SD keeps one more port free for incidental use.
>
> What if I plug in a USB extender say with 4 ports ? Will that work or use
too much power  ?


> > Alright I will shop around for a fan and aluminium case.
>
>
> It's a bit on the pricey side, but this Argon ONE is nice desktop style
> case. The power button also helps to make sure it's not being hard
> powered off, possible leading to corruption of the boot filesystems.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VlE654abDo
> https://www.buyapi.ca/product/argon-one-pi-4-raspberry-pi-case/


That is a nice case. They have so many I have to see what else is
available then decide. But that is a neat case.


>
> > That being said, I will give one further thing to consider.
> >
> > A Raspberry Pi 4 - 8GB is going to run you around $100 Canadian, +
> > $30-50 for a good case, $15 for PSU, $30-80 for SD card or other
> > storage. That's $200 or more. Well with in the lower ends of the
> > used or
> > refurbished desktop and laptops.
>

Cost is always a concern.

>
> > - https://www.freegeektoronto.org/shop/
> > - https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=7_158_1934=3a
> > - https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=710_374=3a
> >
> > Can you tell us more about how you expect to use the computer?
> > That would let us help narrow down your options more.
> >
> >
> > This is not for me. My uncle lives in Edmonton. He is in his late 70's
> > and getting on.
> > I visited him recently and he has an ancient desktop and my aunty has a
> > laptop. Both
> > run Windows 10. The modem+router is in their basement. The house has 3
> > levels. So
> > the wifi signal has to get through two floors for my uncle and one floor
> > for my aunty. Most
> > times things are extremely slow. I could run an ethernet cable from the
> > basement and wire
> > a direct connection but did not have the time to do that this time.
> >
> > I have a couple of desktops lying around but Canada Post or Fedex or UPS
> > will be
> > very expensive if I was to ship them to Edmonton from Toronto and both
> > my uncle and aunt
> > are not technically savvy or inclined so even if I get it across someone
> > has to hook up and test
> > things before handing over to them.
> >
> > This is when I started exploring possible alternatives. A Pi has a very
> > small form factor. Easily
> > packaged and can be sent through Canada Post. Or if I manage to save
> > enough to fly to Edmonton
> > carrying a Pi or two will not be a issue as compared to checking in two
> > desktops :-)
>
>
> Yup, remote support and shipping requirements really do lean into the
> Raspberry Pi's favor here.
>

Yes that is the prime reason I started investigating the Pi :-)

>
>
> > And since everything will be set to go all they have to do is plug in
> > the keyboard+mouse+monitor
> > or TV and things should just work ? I still have to run a ethernet cable
> > from the basement up
> > to his room and my aunt's laptop which has no fixed location. Most times
> > she uses it in the
> > kitchen or dining table.
> >
> > Oh one more question, what can I do to increase the wifi signal from the
> > basement up 3 floors ?
> > I have very limited experience with modems and routers.
>
> There are wifi repeaters, but I've not had much experience with them to
> make a recommendation.
>
> A more practical approach is to move the ISP modem/router onto the
> middle floor so that it's coverage is more consistent across the property.
>

The entry point for the ISP is in the basement and moving things up to the
main floor is going to get messy. I have to find a way to get a stronger
signal
without messing with the modem/router where it currently is in the basement.
Running an ethernet cable is a option but I have to get to Edmonton to do
this.

>
> If it's not practical to do so, because of where their internet service
> enters the property, consider getting a second dedicate WIFI router.
> Turn off the WIFI on the ISP modem/router. Setup WIFI on the new router,
> disable it's DHCP services, and connect one of its LAN side ports back
> to one of the LAN side ports of the ISP modem/router.
>

This will definitely work. I have to first learn and familiarize myself
with setting
up a modem/router. Thank you Scott.


>
> --
> Scott Sullivan
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2020-08-08 3:47 p.m., Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:


There is a new(ish) high quality Pi camera with adjustable focus.


Yeah, I knew about that. It's got no focus at all, just being a sensor 
board and a lens mount. The best that folks are getting out of it right 
now is manual focus. There's no autofocus/diaphragm motor header on the 
board, either, so all the nice things like selective zoom/pan to speaker 
and 3d image reconstruction that you'd get out of a 5+ year old cell 
phone won't work with it. And still no microphone.


It apparently makes an amazing microscope camera and a mostly-adequate 
skyview camera, though. There are some quite high quality lenses 
available at (fairly) low cost in that format. They've also sorted out 
raw imagery so you can get the raw Bayer data out in an interchangeable 
format now, too.


cheers,
 Stewart


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2020-08-08 3:21 p.m., Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
The Raspberry Pi camera is also fixed focus and doesn't do audio. It's not 
useful for video calls.


There is a new(ish) high quality Pi camera with adjustable focus.
See rpi.io/hqcam for details.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

Hi Aruna -

Just covering some points that didn't quite match my experience. 4GB
Raspberry Pi 4 good, 8 GB better, which it sounds like you've discovered.


How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ?
Or will work fine without one ?


You can definitely get by without one. I have the temperature-controlled
Pimoroni Fan Shim in one, and it very rarely operates. It used to run a
lot before the firmware update late last year, but these days I barely
notice it.


How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk
as compared to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?


More difficult, but not that hard. Note that the Raspberry Pi is picky
about SATA adapters. This one has a chipset that will give you pretty
close to the maximum speed possible with the Raspberry Pi 4's slightly
wiggly data path: STARTECH USB 3.0 to 2.5" SATA III Hard Drive Adapter
Cable w/ UASP —
https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_1336_96_id=085674

This may all get radically simpler when UEFI for the Raspberry Pi
becomes a stable thing, but that's a little way off yet.


Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ?


If you do buy the full kit including keyboard and mouse, the compact 
keyboard and mouse are surprisingly good (for my values of "good"). It 
also has the clever feature of a 3-port USB hub built into the keyboard, 
so you can plug in the mouse and only use one port - and still have a 
nearby port for USB stick use.


The full kit comes with 2x micro-hdmi to HDMI cables. Absurd numbers of
Raspberry Pi 4s are selling as dual-monitor thin clients, but note
there's only room for *micro* HDMI connectors: it's hard to bodge with
adapters.

You also said:


The hardest I will run that Pi will be when compiling the Linux
Kernel and when making Video calls.


Ah. The Raspberry Pi kernel is *not quite* mainline yet. Building a new 
kernel will likely lose you useful things in the stock kernel, such as 
3d graphics acceleration and video acceleration. You also (currently) 
lose that if you run a 64-bit kernel.


The stock Raspberry Pi OS image (formerly known as Raspbian: it's 
Debian-based) has the best user experience. Every other distro hasn't 
got as much user support. The Raspberry Pi Foundation has a very 
definite view of how their desktop should look, so if you've done lots 
of customization to their LXDE-based desktop, it *will* all get reverted 
at the next refresh of the UI. This happens roughly quarterly.


Also, video calls: I don't know of any of the major video call providers 
that support ARM and Raspberry Pi. Google Meet through Chromium, maybe. 
Anything that requires a binary (so Zoom, Skype) is right out. Going to 
ARM from x86 for the first time can be a bit of a blow: the number of 
systems that only work on x86 is annoyingly high.


The Raspberry Pi camera is also fixed focus and doesn't do audio. It's 
not useful for video calls.


I don't know anyone well enough in the Edmonton area to help with 
installation, sorry.


cheers,
 Stewart


cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[mwilson--- via talk]

>> Hello,
>> I stumbled across this recently:
>> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
>> I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
>> with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
> [ ... ]
>> How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
>> will work fine without one ?
>[ ... ]
 the 8GB Pi4B which had been running idle
> overnight, and the air temperature in the case near the processor read
> 37degC.  A few minutes work with GIMP brought that slowly to 42.4degC.

Thinking some more, the USB connections to my desktop Pi are keyboard,
mouse, and a powered USB hub (plus an itinerant powered USB disk drive.) 
The Pi4 is spec'ed to provide up to 1.2A to USB peripherals.  The fact
that my system is hardly drawing any of that probably has a lot to do with
its running so cool.

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Scott Sullivan via talk]

On 8/8/20 11:21 AM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:

On 2020-08-08 10:49 a.m., Scott Sullivan via talk wrote:
When you also factor in Keyboard, Mouse, and USB boot drive, your left 
with only one spare USB port, which could likely be taken up by a webcam. 


You can use a USB type web cam with a Pi but you can don't need to. 
There is a special onboard connector that is meant to be used with a 
camera module.




With the Desktop usage scenario laid out by Aruna, the short delicate 
ribbon cable of the camera module would not be a practical choice. Hence 
my inclusion of a USB webcam in the list.


--
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2020-08-08 10:49 a.m., Scott Sullivan via talk wrote:
When you also factor in Keyboard, Mouse, and USB boot drive, your left with 
only one spare USB port, which could likely be taken up by a webcam. 


You can use a USB type web cam with a Pi but you can don't need to. There is 
a special onboard connector that is meant to be used with a camera module.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Scott Sullivan via talk]

On 8/8/20 9:27 AM, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:11 PM Scott Sullivan via talk > wrote:


On 8/7/20 6:49 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:

[.SNIP.]


 > How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard
disk as
 > compared
 > to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?

Typically, the Pi does not come with an SD card or any accessories.
Which is why you will often see is bundles with an SD card, case and
power supply.

But to answer your question. SD cards are the default way to boot.
While
support for USB boot was recently introduced. It may require you to
update the firmware first, and doesn't look like it 'just works'.
Caveat, I've not tried it myself yet.

https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/boot-raspberry-pi-4-usb
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/booteeprom.md

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bcm2711_bootloader_config.md


So it has USB boot with the Pi 4 I just have to change the 
FIRMWARE_RELEASE_STATUS value from "critical" to "stable."


I would err on the side of sticking with just a high quality SD card. 
There far less chance of the accidental removal while the machine is in 
operation.


When you also factor in Keyboard, Mouse, and USB boot drive, your left 
with only one spare USB port, which could likely be taken up by a 
webcam. Sticking to the SD keeps one more port free for incidental use.



Alright I will shop around for a fan and aluminium case.



It's a bit on the pricey side, but this Argon ONE is nice desktop style 
case. The power button also helps to make sure it's not being hard 
powered off, possible leading to corruption of the boot filesystems.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VlE654abDo
https://www.buyapi.ca/product/argon-one-pi-4-raspberry-pi-case/



That being said, I will give one further thing to consider.

A Raspberry Pi 4 - 8GB is going to run you around $100 Canadian, +
$30-50 for a good case, $15 for PSU, $30-80 for SD card or other
storage. That's $200 or more. Well with in the lower ends of the
used or
refurbished desktop and laptops.

- https://www.freegeektoronto.org/shop/
- https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=7_158_1934=3a
- https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=710_374=3a

Can you tell us more about how you expect to use the computer?
That would let us help narrow down your options more.


This is not for me. My uncle lives in Edmonton. He is in his late 70's 
and getting on.
I visited him recently and he has an ancient desktop and my aunty has a 
laptop. Both
run Windows 10. The modem+router is in their basement. The house has 3 
levels. So
the wifi signal has to get through two floors for my uncle and one floor 
for my aunty. Most
times things are extremely slow. I could run an ethernet cable from the 
basement and wire

a direct connection but did not have the time to do that this time.

I have a couple of desktops lying around but Canada Post or Fedex or UPS 
will be
very expensive if I was to ship them to Edmonton from Toronto and both 
my uncle and aunt
are not technically savvy or inclined so even if I get it across someone 
has to hook up and test

things before handing over to them.

This is when I started exploring possible alternatives. A Pi has a very 
small form factor. Easily
packaged and can be sent through Canada Post. Or if I manage to save 
enough to fly to Edmonton
carrying a Pi or two will not be a issue as compared to checking in two 
desktops :-)



Yup, remote support and shipping requirements really do lean into the 
Raspberry Pi's favor here.



And since everything will be set to go all they have to do is plug in 
the keyboard+mouse+monitor
or TV and things should just work ? I still have to run a ethernet cable 
from the basement up
to his room and my aunt's laptop which has no fixed location. Most times 
she uses it in the

kitchen or dining table.

Oh one more question, what can I do to increase the wifi signal from the 
basement up 3 floors ?

I have very limited experience with modems and routers.


There are wifi repeaters, but I've not had much experience with them to 
make a recommendation.


A more practical approach is to move the ISP modem/router onto the 
middle floor so that it's coverage is more consistent across the property.


If it's not practical to do so, because of where their internet service 
enters the property, consider getting a second dedicate WIFI router. 
Turn off the WIFI on the ISP modem/router. Setup WIFI on the new router, 
disable it's DHCP services, and connect one of its LAN side ports back 
to one of the LAN side ports of the ISP modem/router.


--
Scott Sullivan
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

Hello Howard,

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:47 PM Howard Gibson via talk 
wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:49:37 -0400
> Aruna Hewapathirane via talk  wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I stumbled across this recently:
> > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> >
> > I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
> > with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
> >
> > If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one
> > would you recommend?
>
> Aruna,
>
>What do you want to accomplish?
>

I am trying to replace an existing desktop system with a Pi with hopefully
no loss of productivity.

>
>I have three computers that I use extensively.  I have a proper desktop
> with a fairly old motherboard which I have just upgraded this week from 8GB
> RAM to 24GB.  I have a fairly old Lenovo L440 laptop, which I have just
> upgraded from 4GB RAM to 10GB.  I have an Acer Extensa desktop.  The
> Extensa is a small desktop with what I assume is a laptop motherboard,
> which I have connected to my TV.  I use it primarily to watch YouTube,
> Netflix and CBC Gem.  It has 4GB RAM, and it seems to work fine.  My other
> two machines are running way better now with the extra RAM.  I think my
> laptop was getting into swap space, and it has stopped doing this, and I am
> very, very happy.  I am an abusive user, scattering all sorts of
> applications all over my virtual windows, and opening all sorts of
> interesting tabs in all my browers.  I like to play with Flight Gear when I
> am bored.
>
>I believe that Raspbery Pis are used a lot for video streaming on
> people's TVs.  This seems to be a manageable use of fairly low powered
> computers.  How hard are you going to run this thing.  I am not familiar
> with Raspberry Pis.  They are on my ToDo list.
>

The hardest I will run that Pi will be when compiling the Linux Kernel and
when making Video calls.


>
> --
> Howard Gibson
> hgib...@eol.ca
> jhowardgib...@gmail.com
> http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 8:52 AM  wrote:

> > Hello,
> > I stumbled across this recently:
> > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> > I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
> > with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
> [ ... ]
> > How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
> > will work fine without one ?
>
> It occurred to me that I have some of the stuff to answer this.  A
> thermocouple thermometer was reading 23.4degC ambient temperature this
> morning.  I poked it into the 8GB Pi4B which had been running idle
> overnight, and the air temperature in the case near the processor read
> 37degC.  A few minutes work with GIMP brought that slowly to 42.4degC.
> That's with no fan, only the convection past the heatsink.  There's a hint
> to start with.
>

Thank you for going to all that trouble. Much appreciated.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:39 PM  wrote:

> > Hello,
> >
> > I stumbled across this recently:
> > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> >
> > I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
> > with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
> >
> > If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one
> > would you recommend?
> >
> > Is there a major difference in response times between the 4Gb and 8Gb
> > models ?
> >
> > How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
> > will work fine without one ?
>
> I started with a 4GByte kit from ABRA in Montreal.  It did adequately
> replacing my old 1-core I386 desktop, mostly running Firefox and Gnu Image
> Manipulation Program.  GIMP seemed to encounter strange crashes with many
> images open, so I lately upgraded to an 8GByte kit from CanaKit in BC, as
> soon as they announced the 8GB.  It is also working well, with occasional
> GIMP crashes.  I don't have anything like benchmark results to tell you.
>

Hi and thanks no bench marks necessary you just told me what I need to
know. So
Scott was right the more memory you have the more tabs+windows you can
have  :-)

>
> Both kits came with a fan.  The ABRA case+fan had an annoying resonant
> buzz that built up, until I replaced the steel bolts that held the fan
> with nylon.


Oh dear..


> The CanaKit fan is a press fit onto studs molded into the
> case, so it was noisy from the get-go, with no chance for modification.


I guess any fan will generate some sort of noise.

I
> left the fan off.  The 8GB board is running fine with the supplied
> aluminum heat sinks venting straight up through the opening in the case,
> Air coming out of the case is barely warmer than ambient, so under my
> workload, the fan seems totally optional.
>

Oh-kay this is something I have to test and double check.

Besides my big 2 apps, the usual Linux/GNU stuff just works: networking,
> rsync, ssh, apt-get, etc.
>

Sounds good :-)


> I went with packaged kits, just to save my own time, and to be able to get
> to work as soon as the parcel arrived.  I don't think I'd change.
>

I like to compile my stuff just so I can see how long it takes and
sometimes I make
customisations that require a re-compile.

I sprang for a 128GB SD card, the medium size Raspbian image takes up 5%
> space, 2% inodes.
>

I wonder how much the Pi supports when it comes to SD storage ?

>
> > How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as
> > compared
> > to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?
> >
> > Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ?
> > Instead of buying
> > the kit would it be cheaper to buy each item separately from different
> > vendors ?
> >
> > Thanks - Aruna
> > ---
> > Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> > Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:11 PM Scott Sullivan via talk 
wrote:

> On 8/7/20 6:49 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I stumbled across this recently:
> > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> >
> > I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
> > with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
> >
> > If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one
> > would you recommend?
>
> Hello Aruna, I'll try to answer your questions in-line below.
>

Hello Scott thank you for taking the time.


>
> > Is there a major difference in response times between the 4Gb and 8Gb
> > models ?
>
> The amount of RAM does make a difference for performance. The software
> is able to keep more of the active data cached in RAM for faster access
> and more applications (or web browser tabs) can be kept open and
> actively used. As the ram is not upgradable, going for more RAM is
> advisable.
>

Oh-kay understood and makes sense. I will go with the 8Gb.


> > How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
> > will work fine without one ?
>
> Rather Hot. There a lot options, including some very effective all
> aluminum cases that act as passive heat sinks.
>
> I recommend going through some of the reviews by ETAPRIME.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/c/ETAPRIME/search?query=heatsink


Hmm... thank's again.

>
>
> > How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as
> > compared
> > to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?
>
> Typically, the Pi does not come with an SD card or any accessories.
> Which is why you will often see is bundles with an SD card, case and
> power supply.
>
> But to answer your question. SD cards are the default way to boot. While
> support for USB boot was recently introduced. It may require you to
> update the firmware first, and doesn't look like it 'just works'.
> Caveat, I've not tried it myself yet.
>
> https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/boot-raspberry-pi-4-usb
>
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/booteeprom.md
>
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bcm2711_bootloader_config.md


So it has USB boot with the Pi 4 I just have to change the
FIRMWARE_RELEASE_STATUS value from "critical" to "stable."

>
>
> > Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ?
> > Instead of buying
> > the kit would it be cheaper to buy each item separately from different
> > vendors ?
>
> I would certainly shop around. The case options are considerable, and
> getting either an aluminum case or one with a Fan is strongly recommended.
>
> - https://elmwoodelectronics.ca/collections/raspberry-pi
> - https://www.creatroninc.com/category/raspberry-pi/
> - https://www.buyapi.ca/
>

Alright I will shop around for a fan and aluminium case.

>
>
>
> That being said, I will give one further thing to consider.
>
> A Raspberry Pi 4 - 8GB is going to run you around $100 Canadian, +
> $30-50 for a good case, $15 for PSU, $30-80 for SD card or other
> storage. That's $200 or more. Well with in the lower ends of the used or
> refurbished desktop and laptops.
>
> - https://www.freegeektoronto.org/shop/
> - https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=7_158_1934=3a
> - https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=710_374=3a
>
> Can you tell us more about how you expect to use the computer?
> That would let us help narrow down your options more.
>

This is not for me. My uncle lives in Edmonton. He is in his late 70's and
getting on.
I visited him recently and he has an ancient desktop and my aunty has a
laptop. Both
run Windows 10. The modem+router is in their basement. The house has 3
levels. So
the wifi signal has to get through two floors for my uncle and one floor
for my aunty. Most
times things are extremely slow. I could run an ethernet cable from the
basement and wire
a direct connection but did not have the time to do that this time.

I have a couple of desktops lying around but Canada Post or Fedex or UPS
will be
very expensive if I was to ship them to Edmonton from Toronto and both my
uncle and aunt
are not technically savvy or inclined so even if I get it across someone
has to hook up and test
things before handing over to them.

This is when I started exploring possible alternatives. A Pi has a very
small form factor. Easily
packaged and can be sent through Canada Post. Or if I manage to save enough
to fly to Edmonton
carrying a Pi or two will not be a issue as compared to checking in two
desktops :-)

And since everything will be set to go all they have to do is plug in the
keyboard+mouse+monitor
or TV and things should just work ? I still have to run a ethernet cable
from the basement up
to his room and my aunt's laptop which has no fixed location. Most times
she uses it in the
kitchen or dining table.

Oh one more question, what can I do to increase the wifi signal from the
basement up 3 floors ?

Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[mwilson--- via talk]

> Hello,
> I stumbled across this recently:
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
> with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
[ ... ]
> How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
> will work fine without one ?

It occurred to me that I have some of the stuff to answer this.  A
thermocouple thermometer was reading 23.4degC ambient temperature this
morning.  I poked it into the 8GB Pi4B which had been running idle
overnight, and the air temperature in the case near the processor read
37degC.  A few minutes work with GIMP brought that slowly to 42.4degC. 
That's with no fan, only the convection past the heatsink.  There's a hint
to start with.



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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:49:37 -0400
Aruna Hewapathirane via talk  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I stumbled across this recently:
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> 
> I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
> with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
> 
> If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one
> would you recommend?

Aruna,

   What do you want to accomplish?

   I have three computers that I use extensively.  I have a proper desktop with 
a fairly old motherboard which I have just upgraded this week from 8GB RAM to 
24GB.  I have a fairly old Lenovo L440 laptop, which I have just upgraded from 
4GB RAM to 10GB.  I have an Acer Extensa desktop.  The Extensa is a small 
desktop with what I assume is a laptop motherboard, which I have connected to 
my TV.  I use it primarily to watch YouTube, Netflix and CBC Gem.  It has 4GB 
RAM, and it seems to work fine.  My other two machines are running way better 
now with the extra RAM.  I think my laptop was getting into swap space, and it 
has stopped doing this, and I am very, very happy.  I am an abusive user, 
scattering all sorts of applications all over my virtual windows, and opening 
all sorts of interesting tabs in all my browers.  I like to play with Flight 
Gear when I am bored. 

   I believe that Raspbery Pis are used a lot for video streaming on people's 
TVs.  This seems to be a manageable use of fairly low powered computers.  How 
hard are you going to run this thing.  I am not familiar with Raspberry Pis.  
They are on my ToDo list.

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[mwilson--- via talk]

> Hello,
>
> I stumbled across this recently:
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
>
> I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
> with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.
>
> If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one
> would you recommend?
>
> Is there a major difference in response times between the 4Gb and 8Gb
> models ?
>
> How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
> will work fine without one ?

I started with a 4GByte kit from ABRA in Montreal.  It did adequately
replacing my old 1-core I386 desktop, mostly running Firefox and Gnu Image
Manipulation Program.  GIMP seemed to encounter strange crashes with many
images open, so I lately upgraded to an 8GByte kit from CanaKit in BC, as
soon as they announced the 8GB.  It is also working well, with occasional
GIMP crashes.  I don't have anything like benchmark results to tell you.

Both kits came with a fan.  The ABRA case+fan had an annoying resonant
buzz that built up, until I replaced the steel bolts that held the fan
with nylon.  The CanaKit fan is a press fit onto studs molded into the
case, so it was noisy from the get-go, with no chance for modification.  I
left the fan off.  The 8GB board is running fine with the supplied
aluminum heat sinks venting straight up through the opening in the case, 
Air coming out of the case is barely warmer than ambient, so under my
workload, the fan seems totally optional.
Besides my big 2 apps, the usual Linux/GNU stuff just works: networking,
rsync, ssh, apt-get, etc.
I went with packaged kits, just to save my own time, and to be able to get
to work as soon as the parcel arrived.  I don't think I'd change.
I sprang for a 128GB SD card, the medium size Raspbian image takes up 5%
space, 2% inodes.
>
> How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as
> compared
> to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?
>
> Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ?
> Instead of buying
> the kit would it be cheaper to buy each item separately from different
> vendors ?
>
> Thanks - Aruna
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Scott Sullivan via talk]

On 8/7/20 6:49 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:

Hello,

I stumbled across this recently:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/

I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.

If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one
would you recommend?


Hello Aruna, I'll try to answer your questions in-line below.


Is there a major difference in response times between the 4Gb and 8Gb
models ?


The amount of RAM does make a difference for performance. The software 
is able to keep more of the active data cached in RAM for faster access 
and more applications (or web browser tabs) can be kept open and 
actively used. As the ram is not upgradable, going for more RAM is 
advisable.



How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
will work fine without one ?


Rather Hot. There a lot options, including some very effective all 
aluminum cases that act as passive heat sinks.


I recommend going through some of the reviews by ETAPRIME.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ETAPRIME/search?query=heatsink

How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as 
compared

to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?


Typically, the Pi does not come with an SD card or any accessories. 
Which is why you will often see is bundles with an SD card, case and 
power supply.


But to answer your question. SD cards are the default way to boot. While 
support for USB boot was recently introduced. It may require you to 
update the firmware first, and doesn't look like it 'just works'. 
Caveat, I've not tried it myself yet.


https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/boot-raspberry-pi-4-usb
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/booteeprom.md
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bcm2711_bootloader_config.md

Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ? 
Instead of buying
the kit would it be cheaper to buy each item separately from different 
vendors ?


I would certainly shop around. The case options are considerable, and 
getting either an aluminum case or one with a Fan is strongly recommended.


- https://elmwoodelectronics.ca/collections/raspberry-pi
- https://www.creatroninc.com/category/raspberry-pi/
- https://www.buyapi.ca/



That being said, I will give one further thing to consider.

A Raspberry Pi 4 - 8GB is going to run you around $100 Canadian, + 
$30-50 for a good case, $15 for PSU, $30-80 for SD card or other 
storage. That's $200 or more. Well with in the lower ends of the used or 
refurbished desktop and laptops.


- https://www.freegeektoronto.org/shop/
- https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=7_158_1934=3a
- https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=710_374=3a

Can you tell us more about how you expect to use the computer?
That would let us help narrow down your options more.

--
Scott Sullivan
---
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[GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit

[Aruna Hewapathirane via talk]

Hello,

I stumbled across this recently:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/

I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience
with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.

If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one
would you recommend?

Is there a major difference in response times between the 4Gb and 8Gb
models ?

How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or
will work fine without one ?

How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as
compared
to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?

Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ?
Instead of buying
the kit would it be cheaper to buy each item separately from different
vendors ?

Thanks - Aruna
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 with 8G of RAM

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2020-05-28 12:03 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

I just got an ad from Seeed Studio.  It offers an 8G Raspberry Pi 4 for
pre-order.  I didn't know of this new RAM size before seeing the ad.


Someone I talk with in an IRC channel saw this coming ages ago. He said they 
were calling it a typo in the user manual.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 with 8G of RAM

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Thu., May 28, 2020, 14:08 Dhaval Giani,  wrote:

>
>> Maybe a plug here
> https://www.oracle.com/linux/downloads/linux-arm-downloads.html
>
>
It won't have  accelerated graphics either. If the Foundation hasn't done
it for their release for the hardware they know best.

 Stewart

>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 with 8G of RAM

[Dhaval Giani via talk]

>
>
>
> > On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 12:57, Andrew Heagle via talk  > > wrote:
> >
> > 64bit version of Raspbian (Now apparently renamed to Raspberry Pi
> > OS) in beta also released.
>
> Note that it's very beta: much desktop acceleration isn't available yet.
>
>
Maybe a plug here
https://www.oracle.com/linux/downloads/linux-arm-downloads.html

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 with 8G of RAM

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2020-05-28 1:40 p.m., Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

Canadian (Ottawa) availability:
https://www.buyapi.ca/product/raspberry-pi-4-model-b-8gb/


Craig at Elmwood in Toronto hasn't listed his yet, but likely will soon:
https://elmwoodelectronics.ca/collections/raspberry-pi

Elmwood isn't an official reseller in Canada, but the sister company in 
the US (Chicago Electronic Distributors) is. Buy-a-Pi is an official 
reseller here, so has access to these earlier.


On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 12:57, Andrew Heagle via talk > wrote:


64bit version of Raspbian (Now apparently renamed to Raspberry Pi
OS) in beta also released.


Note that it's very beta: much desktop acceleration isn't available yet.

They also seem to have got network and USB boot almost totally sorted 
out for the 4B now. Fast USB 3 (with the right interface) means decent 
disk performance.


 Stewart

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 with 8G of RAM

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

Canadian (Ottawa) availability:
https://www.buyapi.ca/product/raspberry-pi-4-model-b-8gb/

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56


On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 12:57, Andrew Heagle via talk 
wrote:

> Raspberry Pi 4 8GB version was just released today!
>
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/8gb-raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-at-75/
>
> 64bit version of Raspbian (Now apparently renamed to Raspberry Pi OS) in
> beta also released.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 12:03, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> I just got an ad from Seeed Studio.  It offers an 8G Raspberry Pi 4 for
>> pre-order.  I didn't know of this new RAM size before seeing the ad.
>> Estimated availability date is June 5.
>>
>> <
>> https://www.seeedstudio.com/Raspberry-Pi-4-Computer-Model-B-8GB-p-4595.html
>> >
>>
>> US$75 for a computer with 8G seems quite reasonable.
>>
>> Being greedy, the only Pi 4's I've purchased have been 4G units.  I
>> will probably only buy 8G units in the future.  I admit that 2G is
>> enough for many purposes.
>>
>> 8G certainly makes a 64-bit OS more desireable.  I think that Raspbian
>> is still only 32 bits (so that all Pi's are still supported by one
>> image, I think).
>>
>> Seeed is an interesting "maker" sort of vendor.  I have ordered a couple
>> of Pi 4's from them in the past.  I consider them reputable.  Slowish
>> delivery (from China).  They do have a warehouse in the US too.
>>
>> See also
>> <
>> https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/28/raspberry-pi-foundation-announces-raspberry-pi-4-with-8gb-of-ram/
>> >
>> This says that the Foundation has started working on 64-bit Raspbian.
>> 64-bit Ubuntu and other distros are already available now.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 with 8G of RAM

[Andrew Heagle via talk]

Raspberry Pi 4 8GB version was just released today!

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/8gb-raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-at-75/

64bit version of Raspbian (Now apparently renamed to Raspberry Pi OS) in
beta also released.

Andrew

On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 12:03, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> I just got an ad from Seeed Studio.  It offers an 8G Raspberry Pi 4 for
> pre-order.  I didn't know of this new RAM size before seeing the ad.
> Estimated availability date is June 5.
>
> <
> https://www.seeedstudio.com/Raspberry-Pi-4-Computer-Model-B-8GB-p-4595.html
> >
>
> US$75 for a computer with 8G seems quite reasonable.
>
> Being greedy, the only Pi 4's I've purchased have been 4G units.  I
> will probably only buy 8G units in the future.  I admit that 2G is
> enough for many purposes.
>
> 8G certainly makes a 64-bit OS more desireable.  I think that Raspbian
> is still only 32 bits (so that all Pi's are still supported by one
> image, I think).
>
> Seeed is an interesting "maker" sort of vendor.  I have ordered a couple
> of Pi 4's from them in the past.  I consider them reputable.  Slowish
> delivery (from China).  They do have a warehouse in the US too.
>
> See also
> <
> https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/28/raspberry-pi-foundation-announces-raspberry-pi-4-with-8gb-of-ram/
> >
> This says that the Foundation has started working on 64-bit Raspbian.
> 64-bit Ubuntu and other distros are already available now.
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[GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4 with 8G of RAM

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

I just got an ad from Seeed Studio.  It offers an 8G Raspberry Pi 4 for 
pre-order.  I didn't know of this new RAM size before seeing the ad.
Estimated availability date is June 5.



US$75 for a computer with 8G seems quite reasonable.

Being greedy, the only Pi 4's I've purchased have been 4G units.  I
will probably only buy 8G units in the future.  I admit that 2G is
enough for many purposes.

8G certainly makes a 64-bit OS more desireable.  I think that Raspbian
is still only 32 bits (so that all Pi's are still supported by one
image, I think).

Seeed is an interesting "maker" sort of vendor.  I have ordered a couple 
of Pi 4's from them in the past.  I consider them reputable.  Slowish 
delivery (from China).  They do have a warehouse in the US too.

See also

This says that the Foundation has started working on 64-bit Raspbian.
64-bit Ubuntu and other distros are already available now.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Sep 03, 2019 at 08:17:56PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
> Oddly, swearing at keyboards seems fairly limited to computer types. I use
> to work with a lot of copy-typists, and they could work on anything at all.
> They'd switch from Suns to Macs to Thinkpads to real typewriters without
> complaint. Some of them were using multilingual layouts and could use
> QWERTY, AZERTY and QWERTZ at blazing speeds depending on the language of the
> project.
> 
> These people were the fastest and most accurate keyboarders I've ever met —
> like, ‘retype a whole page with no errors faster than you could walk to the
> photocopier and back’ fast — and they lived all day on keyboards. I don't
> think I heard about them complain about a computer keyboard ever. Plenty of
> complaints about chairs and desks, sure, but no complaints about keyboards.

The letter keys are not the ones being moved around.  If all you do is
enter text, the placement of most other keys don't matter that much
(although I would think the size of the shift key and the enter key
would still be a problem in some cases).  I remember my mother did not
get along with the microsoft natural keyboard because they put n on the
wrong half of the split.  Of course some people think they put it on
the right half.  Depends how you learned to type.

Well azerty does move letters around and I am surprised if someone can
actually be efficient on both azerty and qwerty.  Impressive.  I have
seen people be pretty efficient on both qwerty and dvorak though, which
is totally different, so I guess you could get used to it.

> (There was a specific desk's keyboard that they'd complain about *a lot*
> though, and refuse to use unless it was the only one available. It belonged
> to an editor who would water their plants over the keyboard and also eat
> their lunch directly over it. It's the only keyboard I've ever seem that had
> algae growing between the keys, while some of the keys would rebound very
> slowly accompanied by a wet sucking noise. It was very unhygienic.)

Eww!

> I never learned to type, and likely will keep my 4½-finger typing technique
> until I die. My current (non-Raspberry Pi) keyboard is a CoolerMaster gaming
> thing with an irritating top row. They keys are marked
> 
> ` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
> ~ ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +
> 
> which is no fun if you're keyboarding by sight.

Oh top and bottom labels are reversed?

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Nicholas Krause via talk]

On 9/3/19 8:17 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

On 2019-09-03 3:25 p.m., Lennart Sorensen wrote:


If you work on look, hunt and peck princible, then sure, anything 
will do.


Oddly, swearing at keyboards seems fairly limited to computer types. I 
use to work with a lot of copy-typists, and they could work on 
anything at all. They'd switch from Suns to Macs to Thinkpads to real 
typewriters without complaint. Some of them were using multilingual 
layouts and could use QWERTY, AZERTY and QWERTZ at blazing speeds 
depending on the language of the project.


These people were the fastest and most accurate keyboarders I've ever 
met — like, ‘retype a whole page with no errors faster than you could 
walk to the photocopier and back’ fast — and they lived all day on 
keyboards. I don't think I heard about them complain about a computer 
keyboard ever. Plenty of complaints about chairs and desks, sure, but 
no complaints about keyboards.


(There was a specific desk's keyboard that they'd complain about *a 
lot* though, and refuse to use unless it was the only one available. 
It belonged to an editor who would water their plants over the 
keyboard and also eat their lunch directly over it. It's the only 
keyboard I've ever seem that had algae growing between the keys, while 
some of the keys would rebound very slowly accompanied by a wet 
sucking noise. It was very unhygienic.)


I never learned to type, and likely will keep my 4½-finger typing 
technique until I die. My current (non-Raspberry Pi) keyboard is a 
CoolerMaster gaming thing with an irritating top row. They keys are 
marked


    ` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
    ~ ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +

which is no fun if you're keyboarding by sight.

 Stewart


Honestly I've gotten really use to Das or mechinal keyboards so anything 
else feels really


mushy to me. Even this Mac laptop a family member gave to me and I just 
use Linux on it.


Its not bad just the travel really sucks and the feel is weird even 
through my Das keyboard


which I'm had for over 2 years feels a lot better.

Maybe I'm just gotten spoiled by mechinal keyboards,

Nick


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2019-09-03 5:03 p.m., Lennart Sorensen wrote:

Well the left shift key is too short, and the part of it I use is there
'|' is placed. :)


It all depends on the keyboard you have. The shift key is the same position 
and size as the one on my current main keyboard.


It takes a little time to adjust to a new keyboard. The spacing can be a 
little off but most things are still in the same place. That RPi official 
keyboard shows its European roots.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2019-09-03 3:25 p.m., Lennart Sorensen wrote:


If you work on look, hunt and peck princible, then sure, anything will do.


Oddly, swearing at keyboards seems fairly limited to computer types. I 
use to work with a lot of copy-typists, and they could work on anything 
at all. They'd switch from Suns to Macs to Thinkpads to real typewriters 
without complaint. Some of them were using multilingual layouts and 
could use QWERTY, AZERTY and QWERTZ at blazing speeds depending on the 
language of the project.


These people were the fastest and most accurate keyboarders I've ever 
met — like, ‘retype a whole page with no errors faster than you could 
walk to the photocopier and back’ fast — and they lived all day on 
keyboards. I don't think I heard about them complain about a computer 
keyboard ever. Plenty of complaints about chairs and desks, sure, but no 
complaints about keyboards.


(There was a specific desk's keyboard that they'd complain about *a lot* 
though, and refuse to use unless it was the only one available. It 
belonged to an editor who would water their plants over the keyboard and 
also eat their lunch directly over it. It's the only keyboard I've ever 
seem that had algae growing between the keys, while some of the keys 
would rebound very slowly accompanied by a wet sucking noise. It was 
very unhygienic.)


I never learned to type, and likely will keep my 4½-finger typing 
technique until I die. My current (non-Raspberry Pi) keyboard is a 
CoolerMaster gaming thing with an irritating top row. They keys are marked


` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
~ ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +

which is no fun if you're keyboarding by sight.

 Stewart


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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Sep 03, 2019 at 03:43:14PM -0400, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
> The shift key is where it is supposed to be. The | is in the wrong place
> along with a few other keys. I was thinking of getting one of those
> keyboards to go along with the matching red and white case and white power
> supply. Now I think I will skip getting it. I'm a touch typist. Those keys
> that have been moved would have me checking what distance I could get out of
> the keyboard when I chuck it out the window. :)

Well the left shift key is too short, and the part of it I use is there
'|' is placed. :)

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2019-09-03 12:45 p.m., Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 06:39:12PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

Some of you might like the keyboard, if you're not about the numeric
pad: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-keyboard-and-hub/
It's a compact 78-key unit with USB micro-B input and a 3-port USB hub.
It allows you to chain the mouse Apple-style, which is just as well, as
the official mouse have a very short cable.


Vertical enter key, '|' key on left where shift should be.  What's to
like about that keyboard?  Eww!


The shift key is where it is supposed to be. The | is in the wrong place 
along with a few other keys. I was thinking of getting one of those 
keyboards to go along with the matching red and white case and white power 
supply. Now I think I will skip getting it. I'm a touch typist. Those keys 
that have been moved would have me checking what distance I could get out of 
the keyboard when I chuck it out the window. :)


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Sep 03, 2019 at 01:40:15PM -0400, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
> I honestly think I'm too old to care. I've been using it for the last
> couple of weeks and it's pretty decent. The mouse is good enough, I guess -
> though it's no IBM//Lenovo Trackpoint mouse.

If you are used to standard keyboard layouts and type quite fast (and
don't look at the keyboard), having common keys (like enter) not be
where they should be, then you start swearing at the keyboard.  I hit
enter using my pinky on the left half of the horizontal enter key.
A vertical enter key means I hit a different key instead.  I also hit
the right half of the left shift key with my left hand pinky, so having
a different key there is also unacceptable.  I hate most european keyboard
layouts because of this.

If you work on look, hunt and peck prinsible, then sure, anything will do.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Tue., Sep. 3, 2019, 12:45 Lennart Sorensen, 
wrote:

>
> Vertical enter key, '|' key on left where shift should be.  What's to
> like about that keyboard?  Eww!
>

I honestly think I'm too old to care. I've been using it for the last
couple of weeks and it's pretty decent. The mouse is good enough, I guess -
though it's no IBM//Lenovo Trackpoint mouse.

 Stewart


>
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 06:39:12PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
> Some of you might like the keyboard, if you're not about the numeric
> pad: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-keyboard-and-hub/
> It's a compact 78-key unit with USB micro-B input and a 3-port USB hub.
> It allows you to chain the mouse Apple-style, which is just as well, as
> the official mouse have a very short cable.

Vertical enter key, '|' key on left where shift should be.  What's to
like about that keyboard?  Eww!

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2019-08-07 6:39 p.m., Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

Seems that Raspberry Pi (Foundation|Trading Ltd) have been completely
blindsided by demand for the 4GB model, with the possibility that
they're being intended as corporate thin clients or low-power desktop


It isn't the first time they have underestimated demand. Remember the 
situation with the Pi Zero? It took a long time before stock of that device 
was readily available.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2019-08-06 11:20 a.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> | From: Kevin Cozens via talk 
> 
> | I found one Canadian authorized seller (afaict as they are listed on the RPi
> | site when you click on Buy Now) that has decent prices and shipping. It is
> | buyapi.ca and they appear to be showing that 1GB and 2GB models are in 
> stock.
> | I'm still waiting on the 4GB.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks as if they have 4g units in stock.  They don't say so
> explicitly.
> 
> They are a Vancouver company.  I have not checked to see if they are
> authorized.

Buy-a-Pi and Canakit are both official resellers in Canada. If a vendor
is listed on the raspberrypi.org website, they are an official reseller.

I managed to score a 4GB Raspberry Pi 4B kit from Micro Center when I
was in Ohio over the weekend. Not cheap (USD 120) but very complete:
includes SD card, PSU, case, two HDMI cables, Raspberry Pi keyboard and
mouse and a rather cutesy intro book. Everything but the monitor, really.

Some of you might like the keyboard, if you're not about the numeric
pad: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-keyboard-and-hub/
It's a compact 78-key unit with USB micro-B input and a 3-port USB hub.
It allows you to chain the mouse Apple-style, which is just as well, as
the official mouse have a very short cable.

Seems that Raspberry Pi (Foundation|Trading Ltd) have been completely
blindsided by demand for the 4GB model, with the possibility that
they're being intended as corporate thin clients or low-power desktop
units. As before, the Foundation is responsible for production of the
lowest-spec model to fit in with their educational remit.

cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Kevin Cozens via talk 

| I found one Canadian authorized seller (afaict as they are listed on the RPi
| site when you click on Buy Now) that has decent prices and shipping. It is
| buyapi.ca and they appear to be showing that 1GB and 2GB models are in stock.
| I'm still waiting on the 4GB.



It looks as if they have 4g units in stock.  They don't say so
explicitly.

They are a Vancouver company.  I have not checked to see if they are
authorized.

You can buy in C$ or US$.  When I last looked, the US$ prices were
slightly better; that may just have been a lag in updating their
exchange rates.  Warning: credit cards and banks take an unconscionable 
fee when exchanging currency so buying in US$ might only make sense if you 
have some US$ already.

Raspberry Pi 4 basic kit: US$69.95, C$94.95.  One source says it should be 
C$90.96 at the moment.  Many credit cards charge 2%, smaller than this 
difference (but they probably convert when the transaction is posted).

Oops: it seems that when you ship to a Canadian address, they force the 
currency to C$.

The cheapest shipping for 3 units is CA$14.95.  Probably the same for a 
single unit.  So group ordering might make sense.  Only "express" shipping 
($31.95) would arrive in time for the next GTALUG meeting.

| I still haven't decided if I really need another Pi (I have 5 in total, of
| different types), but I may grab a 4GB model 4 just to have it.

Agreed.  But I'm more in Lennart's situation: I have several Pis that
I'm not using (yet?).

The Pi 4 certainly addresses some glaring limitations of the previous
models.  Note: the previous models were perfectly fine for their
intended uses.
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 05:03:25PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

It seems that official Raspberry Pi resellers are finding that the North
American importer, OKdo (formerly Allied), is selling units out from
under the resellers.


I found one Canadian authorized seller (afaict as they are listed on the RPi 
site when you click on Buy Now) that has decent prices and shipping. It is 
buyapi.ca and they appear to be showing that 1GB and 2GB models are in 
stock. I'm still waiting on the 4GB.


I still haven't decided if I really need another Pi (I have 5 in total, of 
different types), but I may grab a 4GB model 4 just to have it.


I have a 3 on my workbench along with a Pi Zero W. I'm using them as a 
development platform for working with AVR microcontrollers.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 05:03:25PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
> … but good luck getting one, even still. Especially the 4 GB ones
> 
> It seems that official Raspberry Pi resellers are finding that the North
> American importer, OKdo (formerly Allied), is selling units out from
> under the resellers. That's why Digikey - not an official reseller - has
> them and resellers don't. Getting qualified as an official reseller
> isn't easy: lots of paperwork and NDAs, possibly even minimum order
> guarantees.

I think I will wait for a revision with a correct USB power port.
I already have a 2 and a 3 and haven't done much with them yet (plenty
of plans, no actual doing anything).

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2019-07-28 11:14 p.m., Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> 
> These guys claim stock now:
> https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-4-4gb.html

They do, yes. They are one of the (two?) official resellers in Canada.

> How important are the heatsinks? Does the new processor need them?

Yes, very much so, apparently. A fan seems to be preferred. Doubtless
there will be a 4B+ in a year or so with better thermal management.

 Stewart

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Re: [GTALUG] Raspberry Pi 4

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 at 17:04, Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

> … but good luck getting one, even still. Especially the 4 GB ones
>

These guys claim stock now:
https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-4-4gb.html

I recall stock problems in the first few moths of previous releases too.

How important are the heatsinks? Does the new processor need them?
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