Re: [GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-09 13:06, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

I was fortunate enough to buy a house from a developer when all that existed at 
the time of purchase was a sales office and a hectare or two of dirt. So I was 
able to do custom wiring. Requesting almost every room wired with RJ45 was so 
unusual it took me almost a full afternoon to explain it to the contractor. 
Then they brought in a commercial team that tried to sell me massively 
overpriced Ethernet switches. But I ended up happy with the result, though I 
have no idea if it will affect the house's resale value.
I wouldn't trust an electrician to do it, unless they have Ethernet 
experience.  My Ethernet wiring was done by Rogers, when I first got a 
cable modem, in the late 90s.  They did a nice job, including fishing 
through walls, etc..  I provided the plain CAT5, as 5e wasn't common 
back then.

Gret for you but did they use cat 5 or 5e wiring. Today you might need
cat 8 (6 and 7 seems to have been obsoleted - - - dunno).
I would have dragged in conduit then you would be very future proof -
- - with just cable runs you will have to redo every 20 odd years.


Gigabit was designed for plain CAT5, before 5e was available, so that's 
all you need, unless you're going above 1 Gb.  There's no such thing as 
CAT7, according to IEEE specs.  Even if there were, it would be a waste 
of money.


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Re: [GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Sat, Sep 09, 2023 at 12:06:41PM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> Gret for you but did they use cat 5 or 5e wiring. Today you might need
> cat 8 (6 and 7 seems to have been obsoleted - - - dunno).
> I would have dragged in conduit then you would be very future proof -

Anything installed now still tends to be 5E or 6.  5E is good enough
for 10GbaseT up to 30m, so perfectly fine in a house.  6 increases it
to 55m and 6A to 100m.  I am perfectly happy with 5E or 6 in the walls.
I am still trying to get 10G equipment figured out so I can start
using that.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk 

| On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 9:56 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
| wrote:

| > Notebooks are almost supplanting "regular" PCs.
| >
| 
| IMO we're well beyond the "almost" in that statement.

I was thinking "almost completely", so I agree.  But my "data" is highly 
anecdotal.

| So I was able to do custom wiring.

We lived for decades with cables on the walls, not in the walls.
Perhaps a good thing: the technology changed.

After a renovation, we have decent wiring in the walls (until the
technology changes again).

Stewart Brand's "How buildings learn" is an excellent book about how
buildings evolve after they have been built.  He discusses the idea
that there are different layers of a house that evolve and different
rates and that architects don't often design for this.  For example

- furniture changes most quickly and easily

- wall covering (wall paper and paint) a little less so

- walls still less

- plumbing still less

(When I was young, many British houses had exterior plumbing added
after construction (you can see it in old movies).  Every once in a
while it would freeze.)

| I have three USB-to-Ethernet devices. One was supplied by Asus with the
| laptop. Another is a TP-Link UE300C That is used with other laptops. But
| the one I use the most is a $21 hub I bought on Aliexpress that also
| includes an HDMI port, an SD card reader, and some additional USB-A ports.
| All have worked well under both Windows and Linux (KDE Neon), though I
| haven't exactly stress-tested them. The hub is fussy about the order of
| plugging things in but it works.

I'm guessing that Giles is more stringent than you are.

| > Notebooks are a bargain compared with regular PCs.
| >
| This I won't agree with.

See for example:

I don't think that you are going to get a desktop with these features
for this price.  (This i3 processor is quite good, not like many
previous ones.)

| I've been able to easily assemble desktop PCs with
| off-the-shelf parts (providing the shelves are at Canada Computers) for
| less money than an equivalent laptop.

Not me.  I guess that part of the difference is I look for bargains.
There are a lot more laptop bargains than desktop bargains.

| Desktop RAM is usually cheaper than
| the laptop variety.  And of course you have the advantage of upgrading (or
| downgrading the screen, keyboard and pointing device to one of your
| choosing. Why pay for a touchpad if you're only going to plug a mouse in
| anyway?

Being able to use a discrete GPU is another reason.

| Most of the business users I know have a docking unit at home for their
| laptop, into which is plugged a mouse and keyboard as well as a second
| screen. This combo is never a bargain compared to a desktop PC that doesn't
| have redundant components. Also consider that at the low end, a mini PC
| capable of running most business apps can be had, with 12GB of RAM and
| Windows pre-loaded, for about $200
| 
.

That is a good price.  It's not a great desktop, just like a netbook
isn't a great notebook.  It's a brand with no track record for support
in Canada.  The processor is obsolete and slow but not terrible.  12G
of RAM is odd.  That means it has mismatched SODIMMs: 4G and 8G.

| The evolution of the Intel NUC concept and its many competitors shows no
| sign of slowing.

I'm partial to the earlier ThinkCentre Tiny computers.  They are
designed for business so they are expensive and conservative.  I've
snagged a few, all but one used.

I used Zotac Zboxes for years before the NUC.  The ones I bought came
with two NICs.  Great for routers.

| > USB-ethernet problems will prevent using notebooks as servers.
| 
| A headless mini-PC as a server will be many times cheaper than a
| similarly-powered laptop and all of them come with at least one Ethernet,
| usually gigabit.

As discussed above, several of us use mini-PCs with multiple 2.5G
ethernet ports.

| They will also prevent most other computers from being used as routers.
| >
| 
| Not if they have a free PCI slot
| 
,
| and most full-chassis desktops do.

mini PC's tend not to have the ability to add ethernet ports.  Some
Lenovo, Dell, or HP tiny PCs can be optioned with a second NIC.

SFF PC's usually have room for a low-profile NIC, possibly requiring a
riser card.  That's what I used 25 years ago: DEC PCs with Pentium
60 (I had two: one with the FDIV bug and one without).

I'm very glad that my router is a mini PC: it is fanless, low power,
and low volume.---
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Re: [GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[Alex Kink via talk]

My experience with USB Ethernet NICs is the same as seemingly everyone else's 
here. I've given them a shot over the past 10 years and I've had the same 
dismal experience under all 3 major operating systems (Linux, macOS, Windows). 
Primary problem is regular connection dropouts, secondary problem is not 
reaching the maximum speed for given connection.

Separate from that, when Apple came out with the first "Retina" MacBook Pro in 
2012, I purchased their Thunderbolt 1 to Ethernet adapter, as that laptop did 
not have built in Ethernet. Ever since that time I've purchased several 
Thunderbolt NICs and every single one of them has been rock solid and are used 
by employees around the office to this day.

I'm currently using Sonnet Solo 10G SFP+ unit 
(https://www.sonnettech.com/product/solo10g-sfp-tb3/overview.html) as I need to 
access the local network at 10Gbit for certain tasks. 

> On Sep 9, 2023, at 13:06, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 10:20 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk
>  wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 9:56 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Notebooks are almost supplanting "regular" PCs.
>> 
>> 
>> IMO we're well beyond the "almost" in that statement.
>> COVID led to work-from-home which necessitated laptops for employees in the 
>> services sector.
>> Even though the COVID threat has reduced, WFH is never going away.
>> For typical business use there is no compelling reason for a desktop.
> 
> Dunno - - - I would say that I see no compelling reason for a laptop.
> Power headaches, tiny monitor space (I have a seriously multi-monitor
> system (think 8620 x 3000 pixels almost all of it visible))
> unable to use an ergo keyboard - - - - I wonder why anyone would want
> to use a laptop (lol)?
>> 
>> But also, for the purpose of this thread, even "regular" PCs are 
>> increasingly coming with wifi as an alternative to wired networking. Ditto 
>> printing, where only premium units have Ethernet but most have wifi. This 
>> makes sense as most homes are well wired for RJ11 POTS service, but few are 
>> wired for RJ45. So the usual solution I have seen lately is to blanket even 
>> large houses with mesh wifi like the TP-Link Deco line. This seems good 
>> enough for most people as even 4K televisions are fine with wifi.
> 
> If one is into privacy and security - - - wifi - - - not so hot - - -
> sorry! (radio waves are very indiscriminate!)
>> 
>> I was fortunate enough to buy a house from a developer when all that existed 
>> at the time of purchase was a sales office and a hectare or two of dirt. So 
>> I was able to do custom wiring. Requesting almost every room wired with RJ45 
>> was so unusual it took me almost a full afternoon to explain it to the 
>> contractor. Then they brought in a commercial team that tried to sell me 
>> massively overpriced Ethernet switches. But I ended up happy with the 
>> result, though I have no idea if it will affect the house's resale value.
> 
> Gret for you but did they use cat 5 or 5e wiring. Today you might need
> cat 8 (6 and 7 seems to have been obsoleted - - - dunno).
> I would have dragged in conduit then you would be very future proof -
> - - with just cable runs you will have to redo every 20 odd years.
>> 
>> I have three USB-to-Ethernet devices. One was supplied by Asus with the 
>> laptop. Another is a TP-Link UE300C That is used with other laptops. But the 
>> one I use the most is a $21 hub I bought on Aliexpress that also includes an 
>> HDMI port, an SD card reader, and some additional USB-A ports. All have 
>> worked well under both Windows and Linux (KDE Neon), though I haven't 
>> exactly stress-tested them. The hub is fussy about the order of plugging 
>> things in but it works.
>> 
> 
> I may have found a unicorn. Label says its a Tripp-Lite (model
> U209-006-RJ-45-X) usb to RJ-45 cable made by Eaton.
> FreeBSD also gives that baby passing marks - - - -its the one one
> there that gets that.
> 
> Wasn't cheap though (it was a newegg purchase and shipping was quick).
> 
> Might be worth a look if you need such - - - I did/do because buying
> used commercial computers
> it seems that a second RJ-45 is considered irrelevant although there
> might be 4 or 5 USB 3.x
> ports. Big business doesn't think long term - - - its for use in the
> period of the lease (at most
> 3 years possibly 4) then the systems are replaced. M$ loves this and I
> like getting cheap reasonably
> high speced small form factor systems (they help keep my power costs
> down and space
> considerations lower as well).
> 
> HTH
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 10:20 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk
 wrote:
>
> On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 9:56 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk  
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Notebooks are almost supplanting "regular" PCs.
>
>
> IMO we're well beyond the "almost" in that statement.
> COVID led to work-from-home which necessitated laptops for employees in the 
> services sector.
> Even though the COVID threat has reduced, WFH is never going away.
> For typical business use there is no compelling reason for a desktop.

Dunno - - - I would say that I see no compelling reason for a laptop.
Power headaches, tiny monitor space (I have a seriously multi-monitor
system (think 8620 x 3000 pixels almost all of it visible))
unable to use an ergo keyboard - - - - I wonder why anyone would want
to use a laptop (lol)?
>
> But also, for the purpose of this thread, even "regular" PCs are increasingly 
> coming with wifi as an alternative to wired networking. Ditto printing, where 
> only premium units have Ethernet but most have wifi. This makes sense as most 
> homes are well wired for RJ11 POTS service, but few are wired for RJ45. So 
> the usual solution I have seen lately is to blanket even large houses with 
> mesh wifi like the TP-Link Deco line. This seems good enough for most people 
> as even 4K televisions are fine with wifi.

If one is into privacy and security - - - wifi - - - not so hot - - -
sorry! (radio waves are very indiscriminate!)
>
> I was fortunate enough to buy a house from a developer when all that existed 
> at the time of purchase was a sales office and a hectare or two of dirt. So I 
> was able to do custom wiring. Requesting almost every room wired with RJ45 
> was so unusual it took me almost a full afternoon to explain it to the 
> contractor. Then they brought in a commercial team that tried to sell me 
> massively overpriced Ethernet switches. But I ended up happy with the result, 
> though I have no idea if it will affect the house's resale value.

Gret for you but did they use cat 5 or 5e wiring. Today you might need
cat 8 (6 and 7 seems to have been obsoleted - - - dunno).
I would have dragged in conduit then you would be very future proof -
- - with just cable runs you will have to redo every 20 odd years.
>
> I have three USB-to-Ethernet devices. One was supplied by Asus with the 
> laptop. Another is a TP-Link UE300C That is used with other laptops. But the 
> one I use the most is a $21 hub I bought on Aliexpress that also includes an 
> HDMI port, an SD card reader, and some additional USB-A ports. All have 
> worked well under both Windows and Linux (KDE Neon), though I haven't exactly 
> stress-tested them. The hub is fussy about the order of plugging things in 
> but it works.
>

I may have found a unicorn. Label says its a Tripp-Lite (model
U209-006-RJ-45-X) usb to RJ-45 cable made by Eaton.
FreeBSD also gives that baby passing marks - - - -its the one one
there that gets that.

Wasn't cheap though (it was a newegg purchase and shipping was quick).

Might be worth a look if you need such - - - I did/do because buying
used commercial computers
it seems that a second RJ-45 is considered irrelevant although there
might be 4 or 5 USB 3.x
ports. Big business doesn't think long term - - - its for use in the
period of the lease (at most
3 years possibly 4) then the systems are replaced. M$ loves this and I
like getting cheap reasonably
high speced small form factor systems (they help keep my power costs
down and space
considerations lower as well).

HTH
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Re: [GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 9:56 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:


> Notebooks are almost supplanting "regular" PCs.
>

IMO we're well beyond the "almost" in that statement.
COVID led to work-from-home which necessitated laptops for employees in the
services sector.
Even though the COVID threat has reduced, WFH is never going away.
For typical business use there is no compelling reason for a desktop.

But also, for the purpose of this thread, even "regular" PCs are
increasingly coming with wifi as an alternative to wired networking. Ditto
printing, where only premium units have Ethernet but most have wifi. This
makes sense as most homes are well wired for RJ11 POTS service, but few are
wired for RJ45. So the usual solution I have seen lately is to blanket even
large houses with mesh wifi like the TP-Link Deco line. This seems good
enough for most people as even 4K televisions are fine with wifi.

I was fortunate enough to buy a house from a developer when all that
existed at the time of purchase was a sales office and a hectare or two of
dirt. So I was able to do custom wiring. Requesting almost every room wired
with RJ45 was so unusual it took me almost a full afternoon to explain it
to the contractor. Then they brought in a commercial team that tried to
sell me massively overpriced Ethernet switches. But I ended up happy with
the result, though I have no idea if it will affect the house's resale
value.

I have three USB-to-Ethernet devices. One was supplied by Asus with the
laptop. Another is a TP-Link UE300C That is used with other laptops. But
the one I use the most is a $21 hub I bought on Aliexpress that also
includes an HDMI port, an SD card reader, and some additional USB-A ports.
All have worked well under both Windows and Linux (KDE Neon), though I
haven't exactly stress-tested them. The hub is fussy about the order of
plugging things in but it works.


> Notebooks are a bargain compared with regular PCs.
>
This I won't agree with. I've been able to easily assemble desktop PCs with
off-the-shelf parts (providing the shelves are at Canada Computers) for
less money than an equivalent laptop. Desktop RAM is usually cheaper than
the laptop variety.  And of course you have the advantage of upgrading (or
downgrading the screen, keyboard and pointing device to one of your
choosing. Why pay for a touchpad if you're only going to plug a mouse in
anyway?

Most of the business users I know have a docking unit at home for their
laptop, into which is plugged a mouse and keyboard as well as a second
screen. This combo is never a bargain compared to a desktop PC that doesn't
have redundant components. Also consider that at the low end, a mini PC
capable of running most business apps can be had, with 12GB of RAM and
Windows pre-loaded, for about $200
.
The evolution of the Intel NUC concept and its many competitors shows no
sign of slowing.

USB-ethernet problems will prevent using notebooks as servers.
>

A headless mini-PC as a server will be many times cheaper than a
similarly-powered laptop and all of them come with at least one Ethernet,
usually gigabit.

They will also prevent most other computers from being used as routers.
>

Not if they have a free PCI slot
,
and most full-chassis desktops do.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Giles Orr via talk 

| I've never found a totally stable USB-to-Ethernet dongle -
| and I've tried quite a few.

That's really interesting and really unfortunate.

Almost no notebooks come with ethernet ports these days.

Notebooks are almost supplanting "regular" PCs.
Notebooks are a bargain compared with regular PCs.

USB-ethernet problems will prevent using notebooks as servers.
They will also prevent most other computers from being used as routers.

Any idea why USB-ethernet is so unreliable?  Any useful diagnostics?
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[GTALUG] USB to Ethernet Dongles WAS: Debian Linux as-a-router Guide

[Giles Orr via talk]

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 14:49, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
 wrote:
> More to your point, it may be convenient for your router to have more than
> two ethernet ports.  Giles' box only has two, yours and mine have four.
> (Giles's box sure is cute.)
>
> Common wisdom has it that USB ethernet dongles are not always stable 24/7.---

This is a subject I know way too much about - which means you've
triggered a story that can be skipped by those not interested.  The
main point: I've never found a totally stable USB-to-Ethernet dongle -
and I've tried quite a few.

I'm fairly hardcore about having my computers connected to the network
via wires rather than WiFi.  I do use WiFi occasionally, to sit on the
balcony or the couch - but the wireless router is on a physical switch
which is off most of the time.  Which means I've become very familiar
with USB-to-Ethernet dongles and their quirky behaviour.  The most
stable I've ever dealt with are the Apple-branded ones attached to
Apple computers (they're pretty good attached to non-Apple computers
as well, although I rarely use them that way).  But Linux computers
with USB-to-Ethernet dongles are never totally stable.  I would say I
get a couple minutes of network drop-outs per day (across multiple
brands).  Which isn't a problem when I'm not in front of the computer
(they're clients, not servers), but when you're using Barrier to use
one computer's mouse and keyboard to control another computer, a
network outage knocks you off the second computer completely.

Sometimes these outages resolve themselves, occasionally (rarely) I
have to run `dhclient` by hand on the machine with the dongle.  I've
never dug into the logs to figure out why.

I have multiple USB3-to-Ethernet dongles:
- one "Amazon Basics" - fairly good, but probably the most drop-outs?
- two Anker "Unibody Aluminum" - slightly better
- three Orico 3-port USB hub + Ethernet - these are noticeably more
stable (still not perfect) and, because of the added USB ports, more
useful
- absolute worst: Belkin USB-C "docking bay" thingy: the Ethernet port
on this bounced every 30 seconds to 1 minute, totally unusable (and of
course being a "docking bay" it cost much more than the others).  I
ended up plugging one of the Ankers into a USB port on the docking
bay!

I've never seen this instability with built-in Ethernet ports: they
work or they don't, end of story.

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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