Re: [GTALUG] WSL, threat or boon? [was Re:Surveillance Capitalism [was another thread]]
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 11:21 AM Jamon Camisso via talk wrote: tl;dr I believe GCC supports more traditional languages than LLVM. On 05/04/2021 09:31, Russell Reiter via talk wrote: > > In that case, in the debate between GCC and clang LLVM, as someone who is > > unable to write an operating system from scratch; who relies on > > documentation > > and the help of like minded people; my vote goes to GCC. It preserves > > support for what > > I see as program necessary artifacts. Plus I see python and other > > interpretative hooks > > into machine code a risk, which must be well balanced, from a SigInt > > perspective. > > 1. What's the debate about? Links please. > It sorta started here. With this headline, as the OP frames his libel in a later post. https://gtalug.org/pipermail/talk/2021-March/009994.html I won't quote the written spurious defamation. Then it wasn't forked but prompted this. Which I will quote from my own perspective of Social [Ir]Responsibility. https://gtalug.org/pipermail/talk/2021-March/010016.html "All wins for the side he champions have been provisional. For example, the GPL has not prevented Linux to be "enclosed"; GCC is in the process of being supplanted by LLVM. He/we can never rest." > 2. What do you mean by interpretative hooks? What is the risk model that > you are conflating with with LLVM, and how is it any different than GCC? > For me, as a reader of documentation, it is the risk of losing support structure and ceeding to competitive advantage without the abstraction of critical thinking. I call this the IBM DITTO interference effect. Direct Internal Text Transfer Object references can be misleading. > Do you verify all your binaries and compiler and all the intermediate > objects when you build software? As Ken Thompson said, "You can't trust > code that you did not totally create yourself... No amount of > source-level verification or scrutiny will protect you from using > untrusted code[1]." > > Since the "debate" as presented here is framed in terms of (specious > until proven otherwise) risk, I suggest that focusing on the compiler is > a secondary concern to the main trust issues that must be addressed, > which are formal verification and reproducible builds. Perhaps the > CompCert compiler would be better for your needs[2]. > > > In such a case of reconstructionism, I believe GCC is the better > > philosophical option. > > Why do you believe it is better? Is using LLVM restricting developers > from writing software that can create social change? Does GCC somehow > better enable developers to engage in critical thinking about the world? > Is any of the above the reason that you use a compiler or write > software? I'd like to understand how either compiler helps or hinders > you, or other developers. > Well as a linux user, or LUSER as some of the hate mail directed at me because someone harvested my email from this list linux had once deemed me; I think others like me, who rely on code we cannot write for ourselves ie. the operating system code, we have no choice but to trust those who do. I'm not sure I'd actually trust someone who writes computer code and doesn't understand me as a person, to write software which can create social change. I'd rather the social change retain my humanity and keep the hate out of it. Otherwise the rather innocent lady on this list wouldn't have deemed Richard Stallman a baby killing rape endorser, because someone else alluded to that fact by claiming he was incel. https://gtalug.org/pipermail/talk/2021-April/010120.html And that's as close to similar inflammatory rhetoric as I'm going to go with this. Except to point out that the list machine placed a carat in front of the first line of my list response to her list post, but not the rest of what I wrote. > [1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/358198.358210 > [2] https://github.com/AbsInt/CompCert > --- > Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org > Unsubscribe from this mailing list > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Russell --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [GTALUG] WSL, threat or boon? [was Re:Surveillance Capitalism [was another thread]]
On 05/04/2021 09:31, Russell Reiter via talk wrote: In that case, in the debate between GCC and clang LLVM, as someone who is unable to write an operating system from scratch; who relies on documentation and the help of like minded people; my vote goes to GCC. It preserves support for what I see as program necessary artifacts. Plus I see python and other interpretative hooks into machine code a risk, which must be well balanced, from a SigInt perspective. 1. What's the debate about? Links please. 2. What do you mean by interpretative hooks? What is the risk model that you are conflating with with LLVM, and how is it any different than GCC? Do you verify all your binaries and compiler and all the intermediate objects when you build software? As Ken Thompson said, "You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself... No amount of source-level verification or scrutiny will protect you from using untrusted code[1]." Since the "debate" as presented here is framed in terms of (specious until proven otherwise) risk, I suggest that focusing on the compiler is a secondary concern to the main trust issues that must be addressed, which are formal verification and reproducible builds. Perhaps the CompCert compiler would be better for your needs[2]. In such a case of reconstructionism, I believe GCC is the better philosophical option. Why do you believe it is better? Is using LLVM restricting developers from writing software that can create social change? Does GCC somehow better enable developers to engage in critical thinking about the world? Is any of the above the reason that you use a compiler or write software? I'd like to understand how either compiler helps or hinders you, or other developers. [1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/358198.358210 [2] https://github.com/AbsInt/CompCert --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [GTALUG] WSL, threat or boon? [was Re:Surveillance Capitalism [was another thread]]
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 9:28 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Russell Reiter via talk > > | I do have an interest in current events tho. What I see most recently is > | that RMS called out canonical for surveillance capitalism and bashed WSL > | for being a ploy to undermine free software. > > I missed or forgot that. I guess he expressed this in 2017 (it seems like > a lifetime ago). I haven't found what he actually said (too lazy). > > Personally, I think that imitation is fair game. GNU and LINUX > I believe that is the fact under copyright law. The closest contextual description I can think of, given the current covid situation, is the political debate on pharmacology during Toronto and elsewhere's sars issues a few years ago. The issue was copyright infringement by the government engaging and manufacturing a licensed pharmaceutical, outside international supply chain regulations as they stood. I believe the outcome, at least what the government was going to do if necessary, was to state that it was only the process of manufacture that could be copyrighted, the end molecular product was not; it would manufacture its own supply and sort the details out later. Monsanto's RoundUp product court decisions may call this into question for their own line of pesticide protected organism's. However, it is direct human health, as opposed to abstract human health, which is the government's top priority, at least I would hope so in this case. certainly copied UNIX (and killed it but propagated many of its ideas). > > Evan's talk this month will be another step down that road. > > Fair competition is health for everyone (but not every thing). > > I see, for example, the competition between Intel and AMD on the X86 > front as killing Itanium, the favoured path of Intel. > > On the other hand, enclosure is scary to me. Linux has been enclosed > in the appliance world. And those folks have rarely upstreamed any of > their work. > > Is WSL enclosure? It doesn't seem to be. > How about an encroachment rather than an easement. An easement is hidden in an administrative record. An encroachment is a visibly apparent use of property where the owner of the property either ignores or is unaware of the situation at the time of use. > Is WSL somehow better than Linux? If so, we have work to do to catch > up.--- > In that case, in the debate between GCC and clang LLVM, as someone who is unable to write an operating system from scratch; who relies on documentation and the help of like minded people; my vote goes to GCC. It preserves support for what I see as program necessary artifacts. Plus I see python and other interpretative hooks into machine code a risk, which must be well balanced, from a SigInt perspective. In such a case of reconstructionism, I believe GCC is the better philosophical option. https://oregonstate.edu/instruct/ed416/PP3.html my .02ยข Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org > Unsubscribe from this mailing list > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Russell --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [GTALUG] WSL, threat or boon? [was Re:Surveillance Capitalism [was another thread]]
On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:05:28 -0500 o1bigtenor via talk wrote: > If you needs are very very simple I doubt that there would be a > problem and if you don't care about intellectual freedom run WSL- - - > - I think that as your needs get more complex the more you need to > have computational organizational freedom. That computational > organizational freedom just doesn't exist in WSL (and a few other > areas as well). > in this area I agree with previously mentioned opinions that: " WSL can only help entrench the dominance of proprietary software like Windows, and undermine the use of free software" and it is known that my opinion is also that Microsoft is EVIL. So, I guess this means my opinion would be that WSL is evil. and I think, as you would need windows to use WSL, I do not know how useful this is for a Linux Users Group. maybe the people keen on Windows and Microsoft issues and support can start a Windows WSL support mailing list or something similar? If this group becomes a windows users group by supporting, or receiving WSL posts, I guess I would consider unsubscribing from it as it will be an even greater waste of my time and bits than it seems to becoming now. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [GTALUG] WSL, threat or boon? [was Re:Surveillance Capitalism [was another thread]]
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 8:28 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > > | From: Russell Reiter via talk > > | I do have an interest in current events tho. What I see most recently is > | that RMS called out canonical for surveillance capitalism and bashed WSL > | for being a ploy to undermine free software. > > I missed or forgot that. I guess he expressed this in 2017 (it seems like > a lifetime ago). I haven't found what he actually said (too lazy). > > Personally, I think that imitation is fair game. GNU and LINUX > certainly copied UNIX (and killed it but propagated many of its ideas). > > Evan's talk this month will be another step down that road. > > Fair competition is health for everyone (but not every thing). > > I see, for example, the competition between Intel and AMD on the X86 > front as killing Itanium, the favoured path of Intel. > > On the other hand, enclosure is scary to me. Linux has been enclosed > in the appliance world. And those folks have rarely upstreamed any of > their work. > > Is WSL enclosure? It doesn't seem to be. > > Is WSL somehow better than Linux? If so, we have work to do to catch > up.--- I would posit from my corner of the world that Win10 is not an advancement. Nor does WSL help much. If running win10 makes something wonderfully easy - - - - then by all means run it but - - - - Win10 insists on being a keystroke logger and updating a little bit like a totally blotto individual wandering down the street. Neither activity is actually a benefit for the user but does allow an extreme level of control to be implemented by the OS. As I still remember the slogan from in the early days of PCs : "computing - - your way" and refuse to relinquish control to any other entity and having found that my 'style' of using a system is quite unusual so would be quite constricted in any such 'controlled' atmosphere (I won't touch Ubuntu anymore either because of their also flying down this path) so I will disagree, vehemently so in fact, that WSL is better. If you needs are very very simple I doubt that there would be a problem and if you don't care about intellectual freedom run WSL- - - - I think that as your needs get more complex the more you need to have computational organizational freedom. That computational organizational freedom just doesn't exist in WSL (and a few other areas as well). Regards --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
[GTALUG] WSL, threat or boon? [was Re:Surveillance Capitalism [was another thread]]
| From: Russell Reiter via talk | I do have an interest in current events tho. What I see most recently is | that RMS called out canonical for surveillance capitalism and bashed WSL | for being a ploy to undermine free software. I missed or forgot that. I guess he expressed this in 2017 (it seems like a lifetime ago). I haven't found what he actually said (too lazy). Personally, I think that imitation is fair game. GNU and LINUX certainly copied UNIX (and killed it but propagated many of its ideas). Evan's talk this month will be another step down that road. Fair competition is health for everyone (but not every thing). I see, for example, the competition between Intel and AMD on the X86 front as killing Itanium, the favoured path of Intel. On the other hand, enclosure is scary to me. Linux has been enclosed in the appliance world. And those folks have rarely upstreamed any of their work. Is WSL enclosure? It doesn't seem to be. Is WSL somehow better than Linux? If so, we have work to do to catch up.--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
