Re: [GTALUG] Win 11 requirements may be windfall for cheapskate Linux users

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 01:19:15AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> Win 11 has requirements that seem to obsolete a bunch of quite recent 
> processors and devices.

Well Windows 10 still has about 4 years of support left, so no one has to
urgently do anything even if their hardware can't upgrade to windows 11.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Win 11 requirements may be windfall for cheapskate Linux users

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Dave Collier-Brown via talk 

| However, recent AMD architecture changes have caused a large step
| upwards in number of hardware threads: my production Intels have either
| 10 or 18, and my two test AMDs have 512 and 1024. And they draw less
| current.

AMD's Thread-Ripper and Epyc have a lot of cores.  (I don't know how
to value hyperthreads, but Intel and AMD kind of match.)

How many processor sockets do your Intel and AMD systems have?  I'd
guess that the Intel has fewer sockets than the AMD, but it might not
be so.

Each socket generates a lot of heat.  Perhaps 200+w in servers.

Each socket might provide additional memory bandwidth.

As time has passed since Haswell, density of chips has gone up. My
i7-4770 has "22 nm lithography".  Current chips from AMD use TSMC's
7nm process which might be five times as dense as the Intel's 22nm.

Reasoning: not everything scales; Intel 10nm is about like TSMC 7nm;
(22/10) ^ 2 isn't far off 5.

So current processors ought to be five times as powerful in some way.
That way is mostly core count.  I imagine lots of cleverness improves
things too, but the Haswell generation was already fairly clever.

The i7-4770 has 4 cores and each had 2 hyperthreads.
Scale-by-5 and you get 20 cores.

Threadripper 3990x has 64 cores but it is way more expensive and
throws of a lot more heat (84w vs 280w).

Perhaps a better comparison would be with Ryzen 7 5700G.  Like the i7,
it has an integrated GPU.  It is rated at 65w.  It has 8 cores,
similar clock frequencies ("max boost clock" is higher), better
instructions/clock (IPC), better iGPU.  Currently the price is roughly
twice what the i7 would have cost (we live in strange times).

Xeon prices have historically been very high.  AMD's server parts have
cut like a knife through that market.

Summary: a Haswell system's book value has amortized down to almost
nothing and yet it still works well for most desktop users.  Why
upgrade?  Perhaps lots of little things:
- NVMe support
- USB improvements since USB 3.0
- DDR4 instead of DDR3
- Win 11 likes newer systems
- a few security things that users likely don't understand
- AVX 512
- PCI 4
- improvements in gaming performance -- every little bit counts

(You can get Dell XPS desktops with 10th and 11th gen Intel Core
processors quite cheaply off of Kijiji at the moment.  People bought
them for the video card, ripped that out, and are selling the rest of
the system.  If I actually needed a new desktop right now, that's what
I might buy.)

| This doesn't have as much effect on small machines, but it does greatly
| improve price-performance. Expect to see a step-function upwards in
| performance and some price improvements as the bottleneck shifts away
| from chip price toward capacity per watt.

Yeah.  Desktops are not improved much; big server systems much more so.

I keep expecting killer ARM servers.  Very slow to arrive.

But then I (and perhaps you) thought Sun's Niagara was a killer system
too.
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Re: [GTALUG] Win 11 requirements may be windfall for cheapskate Linux users

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

On 2021-08-29 4:14 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:


Certainly the value proposition of replacing old hardware has never
been lower.  System capabilities, performance, and price have not been
improving quickly since Intel Core's 4th generation.

(As I've said before, my main desktop is almost eight years old and I
don't have a good reason to replace it.  I keep wanting to for some
odd version of fun or adventure, but have so far resisted.)


I've also been using the same machine for some time, one Hugh recommended.

However, recent AMD architecture changes have caused a large step
upwards in number of hardware threads: my production Intels have either
10 or 18, and my two test AMDs have 512 and 1024. And they draw less
current.

This doesn't have as much effect on small machines, but it does greatly
improve price-performance. Expect to see a step-function upwards in
performance and some price improvements as the bottleneck shifts away
from chip price toward capacity per watt.

--dave


--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com |  -- Mark Twain



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Re: [GTALUG] Win 11 requirements may be windfall for cheapskate Linux users

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: o1bigtenor via talk 

| Somehow I'm supposed to believe that Windows is serious about security - -
| - - tough for me to believe.
| Yes they will eliminate a couple deep security flaws but what about the 10s
| of thousands of other flaws?

Security is very hard in the face of a bounty of features.  Windows
has a lot of features.

Microsoft wants backwards compatability compatibility, at least for 
software. This means that re-achitecting things for greater security is 
very hard.

Most people don't like the inconvenience that comes with greater
security.  Nor do they want to pay for it.

Linux security is subject to the same forces.  We should not presume
that Linux has the high moral ground.

Linux's transparency is a double-edged sword from a security standpoint, 
but I think that it is a net win.  The same can be said for the diversity 
of Linux systems.

| I found 'linux' back in early 2000 after I got a virus on Win 98 SE.

OK, I'll admit it.  Win 98 security was way way worse than early
2000's Linux.

| Did some thinking at the time and realized that even at that time the
| anti-virus/bug killing industry was
| 'only' worth $4 billion USD and today likely 'far much more'.
| I remain unconvinced that M$ wants this part of its cash cow to disappear.

I'm not sure.  AV software isn't directly a profit centre for them.

Additionally, the bundled AV software on Windows badly degrades the
performance of the only Windows application I use (Windows Update).  If it
degrades the performance of other applications as badly, it alone
would be a strong reason to run Linux.  But I don't know this and
don't care to waste my time experimenting.  Windows Update is the
worst application I use on Windows, but perhaps because it is
essentially the only one I run.  (I use Windows run tax software once
a year.)

| They are just trying to
| appease some vocal detractors and will be able to point at these
| couple three flaws and say - - - -
| look Ma - - - we fixed the holes - - - - whilst creating ever more - - - -
| what a royal joke!

Actually, the new baseline requirements add to "defence in depth".
This is a Good Thing.  I expect Linux to use the features on systems
that have them available (except for the new style of Windows
drivers (DCH)).

| These changes will force about 85% of users to upgrade - - - I suppose its
| part of the plan to
| drive profit margins up but this could backfire if john q public figures
| out how they're getting
| hosed! (Hope it does get out!!)
| Likely Win 11 is also part of the forced upgrade routine too - - - - argh!!

It's a little fuzzy, but it looks as if Win 11 can run on old hardware
but automatic upgrading to Win 11 will be blocked.  Whether old
hardware gets replaced depends on whether
(1) the transition is desired by ordinary users
(2) the transition is easy for ordinary users to effect
(3) users understand (1) and (2) -- advertising can influence this.

Certainly the value proposition of replacing old hardware has never
been lower.  System capabilities, performance, and price have not been
improving quickly since Intel Core's 4th generation.

(As I've said before, my main desktop is almost eight years old and I
don't have a good reason to replace it.  I keep wanting to for some
odd version of fun or adventure, but have so far resisted.)
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Re: [GTALUG] Win 11 requirements may be windfall for cheapskate Linux users

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 12:19 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> Win 11 has requirements that seem to obsolete a bunch of quite recent
> processors and devices.
>
> Windows can be manually updated on these machines but they will feel
> obsolete.
>
> - TPM 2.0 required.  Documented a lot of places.  It can be added to many
>   systems that don't have it.
>
> - obsolete: Ryzen 1 and older AMD
>
> - obsolete: most Intel Core 7th gen and all older
>
> - obsolete: any device that has no DCH driver (these can include things on
>   the motherboard)
>
> - unknown: Atom-based processor (like I'm  typing this on).
>
> All these will still work fine with Linux.
>
> I don't think any of my systems will qualify for Win 11.
>
> <
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/loosened-windows-11-requirements-cover-the-surface-studio-2-but-not-much-else/
> >
> <
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/why-windows-11-has-such-strict-hardware-requirements-according-to-microsoft/
> >
>


Started reading the article and almost entered paroxysms of laughter.

 Seeing ". . . Windows 11's stringent security-focused . . .  ."  is what
did the trick!
Somehow I'm supposed to believe that Windows is serious about security - -
- - tough for me to believe.
Yes they will eliminate a couple deep security flaws but what about the 10s
of thousands of other flaws?

I found 'linux' back in early 2000 after I got a virus on Win 98 SE.
Did some thinking at the time and realized that even at that time the
anti-virus/bug killing industry was
'only' worth $4 billion USD and today likely 'far much more'.
I remain unconvinced that M$ wants this part of its cash cow to disappear.
They are just trying to
appease some vocal detractors and will be able to point at these
couple three flaws and say - - - -
look Ma - - - we fixed the holes - - - - whilst creating ever more - - - -
what a royal joke!
These changes will force about 85% of users to upgrade - - - I suppose its
part of the plan to
drive profit margins up but this could backfire if john q public figures
out how they're getting
hosed! (Hope it does get out!!)
Likely Win 11 is also part of the forced upgrade routine too - - - - argh!!

Regards
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[GTALUG] Win 11 requirements may be windfall for cheapskate Linux users

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

Win 11 has requirements that seem to obsolete a bunch of quite recent 
processors and devices.

Windows can be manually updated on these machines but they will feel 
obsolete.

- TPM 2.0 required.  Documented a lot of places.  It can be added to many 
  systems that don't have it.

- obsolete: Ryzen 1 and older AMD

- obsolete: most Intel Core 7th gen and all older

- obsolete: any device that has no DCH driver (these can include things on 
  the motherboard)

- unknown: Atom-based processor (like I'm  typing this on).

All these will still work fine with Linux.

I don't think any of my systems will qualify for Win 11.



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